"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[XtraPercept]

Christ, therefore, existed in the divine purpose, not as a conscious, pre-existent being. He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times” (1 Pet 1:20). Likewise, he is described as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), not because he was literally slain then, but because his sacrifice was determined in God’s purpose long before it was historically accomplished under Pontius Pilate.

Psalm 119 speaks to this conversation well. Does an answer to this question exist? Surely. Is it one we may have? Apparently not in fullness at this time. As verse 6 of this Psalm explains:

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

It would behoove us to prioritize our answer seeking by starting with those most obvious and certain revelations and building from there. One revelation most certain is that Jesus is the Son of God, meaning that all the promises of Scripture are fulfilled and all creation eagerly awaits His return in power and glory.

Those of His heritage experience His return presently by calling to Him in sincerity and truth. They experience His promises fulfilled today. Heaven is no more distant than the God thereof; the entirety of our life and faith is built within. Reverence is a guide for walking in spirit until the Shepherd opens your eyes.

 

[Adventageous]

Firstly, John 8 addresses the question of “whose father” you are from, Abraham or the other line, the seed of the serpent, like Cain.

Christ’s reference to Abraham is intended to affirm his pre-eminence, not his pre-existence.

Unfortunately, entrenched false teachings have taken hold in your thinking, and they are preventing you from grasping the Lord’s intended meaning.

The Jews had claimed Abraham as their father (v. 39), and Jesus responds by establishing his supreme place in God’s redemptive purpose. When he says, “Before Abraham was, I am,” he does not say, “Before Abraham was, I was,” as is often assumed. The distinction is important.

The Jews, much like modern Trinitarians misunderstood his words. Jesus was not claiming to be literally older than Abraham. This is made clear by his earlier statement: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad” (v. 56). Abraham did not see Christ physically, but by faith. To Abraham the gospel was preached beforehand (Gal. 3:8), and through faith he perceived the coming Messiah.

You need to read Christ's words with faith in mind and the Gospel which was preached to Abraham!

Christ, therefore, existed in the divine purpose, not as a conscious, pre-existent being. He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times” (1 Pet 1:20). Likewise, he is described as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), not because he was literally slain then, but because his sacrifice was determined in God’s purpose long before it was historically accomplished under Pontius Pilate.

In this way, Jesus’ words affirm his central place in God’s eternal plan, rather than asserting a literal personal existence prior to his birth.

I agree, that John 8 is also (not only) about "whose father".

Jesus makes the claim that JEHOVAH 'Sr.' is His own actual and eternal Father:

Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.​

​

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​

​

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.​

​

Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.​

​

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.​

​

Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.​

He then contrasts that with the Pharisees who are 'children of the devil' (Jhn. 8:44 KJB), and though they may be physical blood and flesh nature descendants of Abraham (Jhn. 8:37 KJB), they are not of the spiritual and faithful descendancy (as Abraham, 'father of the faithful', who believed and acted upon the word / promise of God), since they do not 'do the works' as Abraham did through faith (Jhn. 8:39-41 KJB). In other words, they are not born again from above (Jhn. 3), and are still in their trespasses and sins, and would remain that way, in their rejection of Jesus.

As the Father in Heaven is without sin, so too the Son:

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?​

Jesus did not merely make the statement "I am" in regards to exising prior to Abraham, but also in regards to denial of the claim that He indeed is the "I am":

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

​

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.​

Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.​

Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?​

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:​

Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.​

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.​

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?​

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​

Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

Jesus was not merely speaking about preeminence (in response to the Pharisees inquiry, "Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead?") (Jhn. 8:53 KJB), neither merely existing as an word / promise foretold in the OT scriptures (Jhn. 8:56 KJB), but actual pre-existence. Look at their question in response to His claim, and His answer. Jesus stated that Abraham through faith believed the word / promise of the coming Messiah, unlike them, who were at present rejecting the Messiah / Jesus.

They specifically asked Jesus a question (misunderstanding His words, when He said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad", speaking about looking down through time in faith in the word / promise given of the Messiah to come)), about "Thou are not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" They specifically asked a question about pre-existence, about age ("years old"). Jesus truthfully responds to their inquiry about their point of age and in having seen Abraham (alive), in saying that, "Before Abraham was, I am."

Of course Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was." That would be meaningless, as "was" is a past tense only, and Jesus at that very moment in speaking is standing right there with them at that time. "εγω ειμι" ("I am") is:

• (I) (ego) PPro-N1S (Personal Possessive Pronoun - Nominative - 1st Person - Singular)
• (am) (eimi) V-PIA-1S (Verb - Present - Indicative - Active - 1st Person - Singular)

It is not "I was", nor 'I had been'. Cannot ever be. It is not in koine Greek Aorist tense, Imperfect tense, or Perfect tense. It is "I am" (I exist, no beginning, no ending, simply always existing), since it is a verb (action) that is "present" and "active", is still presently ongoing when Jesus makes the statement. This means Jesus' statement is that "Before Abraham was (ie came to exist)", Jesus is there before that time, and is still present throughout after that time, even up to the time He makes the statement to the Pharisees. He exists all of that time.

I am not "trinitarian". I do therefore request that you do not further bring that into association with my responses, as it only draws attention away from my actual position, and sets up an incorrect idea which draws away from my actual responses. My position is clear in the following book - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

... to be continued ...

 

[Adventageous]

Firstly, John 8 addresses the question of “whose father” you are from, Abraham or the other line, the seed of the serpent, like Cain.

Christ’s reference to Abraham is intended to affirm his pre-eminence, not his pre-existence.

Unfortunately, entrenched false teachings have taken hold in your thinking, and they are preventing you from grasping the Lord’s intended meaning.

The Jews had claimed Abraham as their father (v. 39), and Jesus responds by establishing his supreme place in God’s redemptive purpose. When he says, “Before Abraham was, I am,” he does not say, “Before Abraham was, I was,” as is often assumed. The distinction is important.

The Jews, much like modern Trinitarians misunderstood his words. Jesus was not claiming to be literally older than Abraham. This is made clear by his earlier statement: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad” (v. 56). Abraham did not see Christ physically, but by faith. To Abraham the gospel was preached beforehand (Gal. 3:8), and through faith he perceived the coming Messiah.

You need to read Christ's words with faith in mind and the Gospel which was preached to Abraham!

Christ, therefore, existed in the divine purpose, not as a conscious, pre-existent being. He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times” (1 Pet 1:20). Likewise, he is described as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), not because he was literally slain then, but because his sacrifice was determined in God’s purpose long before it was historically accomplished under Pontius Pilate.

In this way, Jesus’ words affirm his central place in God’s eternal plan, rather than asserting a literal personal existence prior to his birth.

... continued ...

I already agree that Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world", and "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", but those have nothing to say about His actual response to the specific question that the Pharisees asked of Him in regards age, and neither do they address the response before that in regards accepting Him as the "I am" (Jhn. 8:24), since it is only Deity that can save from sin. The "lamb" had to be "without blemish" (without sins). Deity is sinless.

In fact, the scriptures record that Abraham did see the JEHOVAH 'Jr.' (the Son):

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.​

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,​

​

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;​

Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,​

Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:​

Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?​

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;​

Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.​

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.​

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?​

Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.​

​

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;​

Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.​

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;​

Abraham physically saw and talked with "the LORD" on several occasions, as "the LORD" had come "down" from Heaven, even with two covering cherubim, and we know it was not the Father's Person:

Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.​

At Sodom and Gomorrah, "the LORD", which had talked with Abraham, and was seen by Abraham, was literally standing on the earth, having come "down" from heaven. In so doing, this "LORD" called fire and brimstone "down" from another also called "the LORD" from Heaven. One "LORD" [JEHOVAH 'Jr.'; the Son] standing on earth, and the other "LORD" [JEHOVAH 'Sr.'; the Father] in Heaven.

John the Baptist (and John the Apostle writing) was not merely speaking about pre-eminence (which was addressed by John the Baptist, when he said, "is preferred before me"), or mere existence as an idea in prophetic words of the OT. John the Baptist clearly stated on several occasions (Jhn. 1:15,30 KJB) that Jesus existed "before" John the Baptist, even as "the Son of God [the Father]" (Jhn. 1:34 KJB), not merely "a" son of God, as in only a spiritual sense, but the actual eternal Son of the eternal Father (Jhn. 1:1-16 KJB).

Joh 1:10 He ["the Word", "the true Light", "Jesus Christ", "the only begotten Son" (monogenes uios)] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.​

This all refers back to Genesis 1, "In the beginning", in that when "God said" (the Father speaking to the Son), it was then that "God made" (the Son acting on the Father's commands as He always did), see Jhn. 1:1-16; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:1-3; 1 Jhn. 1:1-3; Pro. 8:22-31, &c.

 

[XtraPercept]

@Adventageous and @Hiddenthings,

What good is a Dodge Viper SRT10 on a go-kart track? Spinning those theological wheels just to scatter mud.

Neither of you could convince each other of anything because you are altogether off course. You argue points with similar words that have different definitions, you each spar with the others ghost. Gentle suggestions have always fallen on deaf ears.

So do you two think you'd be the preserved Israelites or among those who get massacred for persistence in disobedience? How would you know?

Food for thought. I'll take my leave of this thread now and bid you both fare well in your contest.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Adventageous and @Hiddenthings,

What good is a Dodge Viper SRT10 on a go-kart track? Spinning those theological wheels just to scatter mud.

Neither of you could convince each other of anything because you are altogether off course. You argue points with similar words that have different definitions, you each spar with the others ghost. Gentle suggestions have always fallen on deaf ears.

So do you two think you'd be the preserved Israelites or among those who get massacred for persistence in disobedience? How would you know?

Food for thought. I'll take my leave of this thread now and bid you both fare well in your contest.

There is no contest.

Once careful exegesis is brought to bear the conversation ends, not because it is avoided, but because I am not appealing to extra-biblical dogma to explain what the Lord himself has made exceedingly clear in his Fathers Word.

When a believer forces Trinitarian formulas into a passage of Scripture where no such framework exists, it inevitably raises questions about what else may be amiss in that person’s understanding of the text.

I might be leaving the thread also.

Pre-eminence points to the vast body of Old Testament prophetic testimony concerning the promised Son, whereas pre-existence offers no promise at all and ultimately empties Genesis 22 of its meaning.

It is sobering to watch a believer fall into the same misunderstanding that trapped the Jewish listeners in John 8.

Maybe he will come to his senses.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I am not "trinitarian". I do therefore request that you do not further bring that into association with my responses, as it only draws attention away from my actual position, and sets up an incorrect idea which draws away from my actual responses.

Perhaps now would be a good time for you to clearly set out, what you actually believe, so we can address it directly and bring this discussion to a proper close.

 

[Adventageous]

Firstly, John 8 addresses the question of “whose father” you are from, Abraham or the other line, the seed of the serpent, like Cain.

Christ’s reference to Abraham is intended to affirm his pre-eminence, not his pre-existence.

Unfortunately, entrenched false teachings have taken hold in your thinking, and they are preventing you from grasping the Lord’s intended meaning.

The Jews had claimed Abraham as their father (v. 39), and Jesus responds by establishing his supreme place in God’s redemptive purpose. When he says, “Before Abraham was, I am,” he does not say, “Before Abraham was, I was,” as is often assumed. The distinction is important.

The Jews, much like modern Trinitarians misunderstood his words. Jesus was not claiming to be literally older than Abraham. This is made clear by his earlier statement: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad” (v. 56). Abraham did not see Christ physically, but by faith. To Abraham the gospel was preached beforehand (Gal. 3:8), and through faith he perceived the coming Messiah.

You need to read Christ's words with faith in mind and the Gospel which was preached to Abraham!

Christ, therefore, existed in the divine purpose, not as a conscious, pre-existent being. He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times” (1 Pet 1:20). Likewise, he is described as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), not because he was literally slain then, but because his sacrifice was determined in God’s purpose long before it was historically accomplished under Pontius Pilate.

In this way, Jesus’ words affirm his central place in God’s eternal plan, rather than asserting a literal personal existence prior to his birth.

... continued ...

I wanted to address the point you made (about, "existed in the divine purpose, not as a conscious, pre-existent being. He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times” (1 Pet 1:20). Likewise, he is described as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8)") even more fully.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

​

Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?​

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:​

Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.​

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.​

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?​

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​

Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

In the context itself, it shows "the Jews" understanding of Jesus' answer in regards their question of 'age' ("years old", and "hast thou seen Abraham?"). Notice, they did not understand Jesus to say that He was merely foretold in the scriptures, or in God's divine plan in written word. They fully understood Jesus to make a claim, that if He were not Who He said He was, would be blasphemy and punishable by death.

They did not understand Him to be making an additional claim about pre-eminence (already addressed), or simply being foretold in the scriptures (already addressed). They all knew that the "Messiah" was foretold in the scriptures (as per Daniel, &c.) to come, and that many had even claimed to be such a fulfillment (as Theudas, and Judas of Galilee, Act. 5:36-37 KJB; among many others) before Jesus came along, and they did not seek to "stone" such persons who claimed to be such a fulfillment (but allowed them to perish on their own). If all Jesus was claiming by the statement, "Before Abraham was, I am.", was simply to be a fulfillment of the OT prophecies of the Messiah in the plans of God, as written therein, they would have no grounds to take "up stones to cast at him", and stone Him to death. They would have been guilty of murder, and had no justification before the Sanhedrin for their actions. They rightly understood Jesus' claim to existence since before the time of Abraham, even unto the present time, which would place Him at an age of at least several thousand years old.

Notice, even though they misunderstood Jesus in regards Jesus' statement in Jhn. 8:56, they asked a specific question, to which Jesus truthfully answered. Not only had Jesus actually "seen" "Abraham" (already addressed), but existed before even "Abraham" existed. This was the entire point of the introduction to the Gospel of John in the first place (Jhn. 1:1-18 KJB). "Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made ... Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men ... Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world ... Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not ... Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ... Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth ... Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ ... Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ..."

 

[Hiddenthings]

... continued ...

I already agree that Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world", and "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", but those have nothing to say about His actual response to the specific question that the Pharisees asked of Him in regards age, and neither do they address the response before that in regards accepting Him as the "I am" (Jhn. 8:24), since it is only Deity that can save from sin. The "lamb" had to be "without blemish" (without sins). Deity is sinless.

God cannot sin, it is impossible for Him to do so, whereas the Son of Man was tempted in every way. He was capable of sinning yet did not; instead, through suffering and death, he remained obedient and faithful.

So, you are not a Trinitarian, yet you believe in the pre-existence of Christ as a divine being, is that correct?

What is crucial is that John 1 and John 8 cannot be used to support the idea of Christ’s pre-existence; in both passages the context clearly points to pre-eminence, not literal pre-existence.

The reason it is so difficult to prove is that it is a false teaching, developed and codified through human councils rather than Scripture.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Firstborn; first man to be granted immortality and to be exalted to the right hand of the Father on High.

Once your understanding aligns with the Apostles’ teaching, seeing Christ as the firstborn and the firstfruits of those who sleep...the wonder of his sacrifice and the principles of atonement truly come alive.

 

[GodsGrace]

The last NT book was written 100 years before the idea of the trinity began taking shape with Origen. The blasphemous mystery math leavened the bread more heavily another 150 years after that with the codification of doctrine in the form of the Nicene Creed.

You don't even know what the holy Spirit is because you refuse to consider alternative ideas thinking that you are holy for insisting on a concept of God's identity you will readily admit is inherently incomprehensible.

Paul told us he was using plain words in his writings, not fancy words. How I would have loved to read his fancy words. But the plain words are as they are and they are twisted still today. Jesus is the Son of God, and you are confused because you cling to a lie.

The truth always makes sense, and in those instances where it is undeniably clear, we call it wisdom. If it leads to unanswerable questions, it is not from God.

I gave you nine verses from the NT.
To which you have no reply BTW.

When do YOU believe the NT was written?

Did you notice that it teaches that Jesus is God?

No need to wait 100 years or 300 years.

Also, you should learn WHY there were councils....
they were NOT to make up new theology but to confirm old theology.

Paul spoke very clearly,,,as my verses prove.
It's just that some prefer modern ideas to what the church has always believed.

Two more points:

1. When persons don't have good arguments to present they always defer to personal insults - which you do.

2. You have not responded with scripture and so you present your own personal opinion.
Personal opinions have no place when plain scripture is presented.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Notice, even though they misunderstood Jesus in regards Jesus statement in Jhn. 8:56, they asked a specific question, to which Jesus truthfully answered. Not only had Jesus actually "seen" "Abraham" (already addressed), but existed before even "Abraham" existed. This was the entire point of the introduction to the Gospel of John in the first place (Jhn. 1:1-18 KJB). "Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made ... Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men ... Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world ... Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not ... Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ... Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth ... Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ ... Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ..."

Exodus 3:14 (“I AM”) – The Hebrew name YHWH is often rendered in English as “I am that I am” (KJV) or “I will be what I will be” (RSV marginal note). It is a declaration of God’s eternal, self-determined nature and purpose. It is not inherently a claim of Christ being “Very God” in the Trinitarian sense. The statement is about God’s eternal existence and divine plan, not necessarily a personal pre-existence claim.

John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was, I am”) – Jesus uses the present tense of the verb “to be” (eimi). While some interpret this as an allusion to the divine name, the text in context supports pre-eminence rather than ontological pre-existence as God. The focus is that Christ fulfills God’s plan and is foreordained in purpose, not that he predates God in essence.

1 Timothy 3:16 & John 1:14 – Christ is described as “God manifest in the flesh” and the "Word made flesh", showing that he is the perfect expression of God’s character and will, embodying divine grace and truth. This emphasizes his role as the revelation of God rather than the originator of God’s plan.

Once you understand that Christ shared your condemned nature, any notion of his pre-existence collapses as a mere fallacy of human reasoning.

Romans 8:29 & John 8:42 – Christ is the firstborn among many brethren, sent by God, proceeding from God, highlighting that he is the instrument of God’s eternal plan, not the source of it.

Unfortunately, Advent, there is no clear Scriptural support for Christ’s pre-existence; all the evidence points instead to his pre-eminence in God’s plan.

 

[GodsGrace]

God cannot sin, it is impossible for Him to do so, whereas the Son of Man was tempted in every way. He was capable of sinning yet did not; instead, through suffering and death, he remained obedient and faithful.

So did Jesus sin or NOT??

Bad theology causes one to make statements that do not make sense.

YOU said that God cannot sin.

and

In fact

Jesus did NOT sin
because
HE IS GOD.

So, you are not a Trinitarian, yet you believe in the pre-existence of Christ as a divine being, is that correct?

What is crucial is that John 1 and John 8 cannot be used to support the idea of Christ’s pre-existence; in both passages the context clearly points to pre-eminence, not literal pre-existence.

The reason it is so difficult to prove is that it is a false teaching, developed and codified through human councils rather than Scripture.

You should do what the other member should do:

LEARN why the church held councils.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Firstborn; first man to be granted immortality and to be exalted to the right hand of the Father on High.

Once your understanding aligns with the Apostles’ teaching, seeing Christ as the firstborn and the firstfruits of those who sleep...the wonder of his sacrifice and the principles of atonement truly come alive.

Ditto.

 

[XtraPercept]

I gave you nine verses from the NT.
To which you have no reply BTW.

When do YOU believe the NT was written?

Did you notice that it teaches that Jesus is God?

No need to wait 100 years or 300 years.

Also, you should learn WHY there were councils....
they were NOT to make up new theology but to confirm old theology.

Paul spoke very clearly,,,as my verses prove.
It's just that some prefer modern ideas to what the church has always believed.

Two more points:

1. When persons don't have good arguments to present they always defer to personal insults - which you do.

2. You have not responded with scripture and so you present your own personal opinion.
Personal opinions have no place when plain scripture is presented.

1. Aside from disagreement, how have I insulted you?

2. You have not responded from the Spirit, you have responded from hurt and anger and confusion. You are looking for what is familiar, your names and numbers for references devoid of the complete messages from which you extract them. When I address you directly from the Spirit, using words and ideas pulled from Scripture in their entirety, you take offense. I will not lie to you, so what do you suggest?

 

[GodsGrace]

You were going well...

You were going EXTREMELY not well.

Do you believe John?

Let's take a look at what John states that should be SUFFICIENT to convince anyone EXCEPT those that do not wish to follow the Christian faith...


John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,


WHAT became flesh Hidden?

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Aside from disagreement, how have I insulted you?

2. You have not responded from the Spirit, you have responded from hurt and anger and confusion. You are looking for what is familiar, your names and numbers for references devoid of the complete messages from which you extract them. When I address you directly from the Spirit, using words and ideas pulled from Scripture in their entirety, you take offense. I will not lie to you, so what do you suggest?

When you want to have a serious discussion, come back.

For now I see no scripture but only personal attacks.

 

[Hiddenthings]

So did Jesus sin or NOT??

Bad theology causes one to make statements that do not make sense.

YOU said that God cannot sin.

and

In fact

Jesus did NOT sin
because
HE IS GOD.

Hebrews 1:5: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’? And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’?”

It is never on the basis of Jesus being God that he overcame sin; rather, he was sinless because he was tempted in every way as we are, sharing our human nature, yet without yielding to sin.

You understand that right?

 

[Hiddenthings]

LEARN why the church held councils.

It was often to settle disputes.

The term hypostasis was introduced in an attempt to define the nature of Jesus, but in doing so, the council overlooked the clear teaching of the Apostles as given in Hebrews 2 / Romans 8, instead relying on the philosophical ideas of their own time.

You understand this right?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 1:5: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’? And again, ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son’?”

It is never on the basis of Jesus being God that he overcame sin; rather, he was sinless because he was tempted in every way as we are, sharing our human nature, yet without yielding to sin.

You understand that right?

Here's what I understand Hidden....

YOU said God never sins.

JESUS NEVER SINNED

Because Jesus IS GOD.

And anyone that uses Hebrews to attempt to prove that Jesus is not God...ù
is a rather foolish person.

Hebrews states that Jesus is THE EXACT IMAGE OF GOD.


Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Do YOU know what THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF GOD'S NATURE means?
Charakter means AN EXACT COPY. An EXACT REPRODUCTION of God's essence and nature.



Hebrews 11:24-26
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown * up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.


The writer of Hebrews is stating that MOSES considered greater the reproach of Jesus....
The writer of Hebrews is clearly stating that Jesus was before Moses and that Moses was looking forward to the Day of Christ.

 

[Adventageous]

@Adventageous and @Hiddenthings,

What good is a Dodge Viper SRT10 on a go-kart track? Spinning those theological wheels just to scatter mud.

Neither of you could convince each other of anything because you are altogether off course. You argue points with similar words that have different definitions, you each spar with the others ghost. Gentle suggestions have always fallen on deaf ears.

So do you two think you'd be the preserved Israelites or among those who get massacred for persistence in disobedience? How would you know?

Food for thought. I'll take my leave of this thread now and bid you both fare well in your contest.

People are free in their prerogative, in allowance by God, to answer as they will, and every man shall given an answer to God for their words. So, I leave such to God in that respect. I am not here to dictate how a person may theologically respond (short or long, detailed or brief, complex or simple).

My job, under God's Holy Spirit is to respond to various points raised, with scriptural evidence.

I disagree with your view about our responses and word definitions. I understand, just fine, Hiddenthing's responses, and respond accordingly. I understand Hiddenthing's position in this matter, and simply disagree with it, as evidenced by the responses provided.

As for your question towards us both, I choose to simply let it go by, as being not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Thank you for your response, and I have read and considered it. It is of course your (as anyone's) prerogative of whether you (any) stay or leave any particular thread, or come back as you (they) desire.

Points of contention exist in the world on many matters (politics, diet, sex, music, &c.), and when it comes to theological ones, why would it be any different? (Rhetorical) Jesus said:

​

Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.​

His word brings division between truth & error, right & wrong, &c.

 

[GodsGrace]

It was often to settle disputes.

They were only to settle disputes and clarify Christian teachings.

They were NOT to create NEW doctrine.

The term hypostasis was introduced in an attempt to define the nature of Jesus, but in doing so, the council overlooked the clear teaching of the Apostles as given in Hebrews 2 / Romans 8, instead relying on the philosophical ideas of their own time.

Nothing was overlooked.
Jesus was both a MAN and GOD.

The hypostatic union declared and confirmed that Jesus was 100% MAN and 100% GOD.

Mirroring exactly what was written about Him in the NT.
Jesus was referred to as a man on at least 2 occasions I can think of.
And He was also referred to as God on MANY occasions....
of which I have posted scripture.

You understanding this right?

Are YOU understanding, right?

 

[XtraPercept]

When you want to have a serious discussion, come back.

For now I see no scripture but only personal attacks.

How can I address what you dismiss upon my attempt to do so? Highlight my insult that I may apologize for it properly, as I meant no harm. If I inflicted some, it is my shame, as it is my intent to represent the God of truth, Whom I love because He loves me.