Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

[Hiddenthings]

I canot agree that, (as you have said) "Christ is the only one to be granted eternal life to this point in time." as the texts and context thereof I have previously provided show otherwise. Thus the 5 'groups' (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus & 'Firstfruits') are in the 3rd Heaven. As stated previously, this is a niche point, and not required for our study of Rev. 20:1-15. If you desire to not continue with this point of discussion, that is fine, we may disagree upon it and move on, or discuss it further here, or discuss it elsewhere. I would recommend that it be kept separate from other posts on Rev. 20, if it is to be continued in discussion here. This is only a recommendation however.

You only have evidence of Christ ascending Heaven as the firstfruits

1 Corinthians 15:20–23: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming."

An important distinction! - Christ was not the first to be raised, but first to be raised to eternal life.

I should note also that 1 Corinthians 15 is in harmony with Hebrews 11.

 

[Adventageous]

Hello Adventageous,

It looks like you may take a while getting to the "thousand years" passages. I do want to say that I admire great and lengthy study even if biblically, like so many books, there is "no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh." But, judging from your above paragraph, you are not off to the best of starts.

Having said that, I would also ask you to "Please, in charity (1 Cor. 13 KJB), be kind", etc.

The first issue in the above quote is you state "that the Bible is defined in the Bible, by God therein." --Which is true--but then you imposed a limit to what passages should be included in your study, saying, "God (2 Tim. 3;16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21 KJB), is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33 KJB), but of "order." Which is, as you say, subject to "private interpretation"...as it is contrary to : "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” (Genesis 11:7). Thus, everything to follow in your study is rightly suspect. As such, your claim regarding the word of God and confusion, is against your own rational rather than for it.

To clarify, that is, to reconcile and explain--God is indeed the Author of confusion among the affairs of men--but He himself and His purpose is one of order. That is what is biblically true. In any case--your claim is not valid.

As for "private interpretation"--every interpretation among men except One--is private. And it is only the Spirit who reveals "all truth" (John 16:13).

The next issue, while you have acknowledged the Truth of Jehovah--even that His word is inspired--and the strawman, you seem to end without returning to God's established method of inspiring what is indeed true. Does that mean you do not believe the Word, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever?"

Without reestablishing the terms of your opening post as biblically correct--there is no reason to believe the rest of your study is creditable.

Hi ScottA. I think you may have stumbled a bit on a particular choice of words in my reply, namely, in regards to the phrasing "...as the scripture, being inspired of God (2 Tim. 3;16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21 KJB), is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33 KJB), but of "order" (1 Cor. 14:40 KJB) and perfect 'timing' (Ecc. 3:1 KJB) ..." in post #1 - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

The context is "the Bible is defined in the Bible, by God therein", even "the scripture", when I stated "is not the author of confusion", and cited 1 Cor. 14:33. Here it is:

1Co 14:33 KJB - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.​

The previous context is 1 Cor. 14:31-32 (see also 1 Cor. 26-30):

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.​

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.​

Thus God is "not the author of confusion, but of peace" in reference to the written word of God (to the prophets, vs 32), and spoken words of present church members (the spirits / minds of the prophets in all the churches of the saints, vss 32,33). Never did I say, or intimate that God did not come down and confound the langauges at Babel in Gen. 11:1-11. My context, was as the context as scripture gave it, in reference to the words of God, in written and spoken (by His people) forms (ie. Isa. 8:20; 1 Pet. 4:11 KJB). God's words are not in confusion, and are non-contradictory. That was my point in my statement. I am well aware that God's word brings division (Mat. 10:34 KJB). So, I think you have read into my reply that which is not present, and then made a lengthy response to your own idea being read into my post.

I did send cautionary words along, in my further reply, in post #4 - "(please always be very careful in reading what I do say, not what I do not say, let none assume, just ask)" - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

I see your reply as diversionary from the actual OP, and not at present helpful to the main discussion, but I understand why you wrote what you did, only it is sincerely (and I mean that) mistaken upon what I wrote.

I agree that Jesus Christ is, as Heb. 13:4-8 states:

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.​

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.​

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.​

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.​

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​

Without getting into lengthy detail upon this passage, as it is not immediately germane to the OP on Rev. 20:1-15 per se, though I am not opposed to discussing it, or Jesus Christ, Hebrews 13:4-8 is citing several OT (and even paralleled in some NT) texts, and directly applying them to Jesus, as the JEHOVAH God who came down, and is eternally unchanging as Son of the Father, and thus is unchanging in His dealings with mankind, even since the time of Babel (which I am not, again, in disagreement with). Since there may be several persons in this study that are not in agreement with that, I do not at this time, desire to make it a point of contention (yet). I believe there is a place to discuss that in Rev. 20, but further in, and when i (we) get there, I think then may be the appropriate time to re-cover these points.

This means that your last statement, in conclusion, is in error, as the first premise strayed from what I said, and meant by the words and references provided. I hope you understand. Thank you. This will be the last reply to this point of your contention, as it is not my contention in the least, as I know what I said and meant, is differing in how you have preceived it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Without getting into lengthy detail upon this passage, as it is not immediately germane to the OP on Rev. 20:1-15 per se, though I am not opposed to discussing it, or Jesus Christ, Hebrews 13:4-8 is citing several OT (and even paralleled in some NT) texts, and directly applying them to Jesus, as the JEHOVAH God who came down, and is eternally unchanging as Son of the Father, and thus is unchanging in His dealings with mankind, even since the time of Babel (which I am not, again, in disagreement with). Since there may be several persons in this study that are not in agreement with that, I do not at this time, desire to make it a point of contention (yet). I believe there is a place to discuss that in Rev. 20, but further in, and when i (we) get there, I think then may be the appropriate time to re-cover these points.

A hint of creedal language seems to be creeping in, Advent, this raises concern about your intentions. You have already twisted the story of Enoch and misrepresented the Lord’s work. Will you next misrepresent Jehovah God Himself?

Time will tell, no doubt.

 

[Hiddenthings]

.Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It is encouraging to see that you recognize the Lord Jesus remains in subjection to His Creator, relying on Him for all wisdom and knowledge.

These distinctions are important, and careful attention is required when studying the prophecy. God works through His created agents; Christ, Angels and Saints all working to do His Will.

I’ve noticed that your posts often lack this level of care, whereas I make it a point to be meticulous about details.

Regarding the angels of Revelation 20:1 and 19:10, as mentioned earlier, the angel is associated with the redeemed, that is, Christ and the Saints. This distinction becomes particularly important when considering the political affairs described in Revelation 20:2.

 

[Luther7]

This is the "Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study" thread.

(NOTE; PLEASE READ AT LEAST THIS POST BEFORE ENGAGING: Please, in charity (1 Cor. 13 KJB), be kind to each other's response in responding (Col. 4:6 KJB), whether one sees another's responses in error or not. This means a person can point out an error (by scripture), or by asking a question for clarification or in attempt to help another see a flaw, but please refrain from accusations, like 'liar' (that is difficult to prove motive of), 'deceiver', 'lost', &c/, like character assassinations, or previous argumentative history with a person (aka 'personal baggage / grievances / grudges'). As those things are unhelpful, and lead away from actual scriptural study. One may use words like correct, incorrect, fact and error, but in a kindly, demonstrative with evidence way.)

Here are the primary texts for study; Rev. 201-15 KJB (King James Bible), highlighting only "a thousand years", "the thousand years" in bold underline.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.​

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,​

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.​

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

This thread's author (myself) believes that the Bible is defined in the Bible, by God therein (Gen. 40:8; Isa. 28;10,13 KJB), and that as a Christian (we / I) should only "amen" what is already given to us therein from God (1 Pet. 4:11 KJB), as the scripture, being inspired of God (2 Tim. 3;16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21 KJB), is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33 KJB), but of "order" (1 Cor. 14:40 KJB) and perfect 'timing' (Ecc. 3:1 KJB), and 'cannot lie' (Tit. 1:2; Heb. 6:18 KJB), and so the word thereFrom, cannot be "broken" (non-contradictory; Jhn. 10:35; Psa. 119:160 KJB). This means I do not believe in, nor subscribe to, "private interpretation" (2 Pet. 1:20 KJB) at all. Therefore, if someone not liking a reply says, 'That is your [meaning 'my'] opinion ...', or something to that effect, they have unjustly mischaracterized my actual position, and present a 'strawman' of their own mind / making in its place, and have ceased from engaging with my actual response and position, and I may point this out in charity, and ask for a differing response. There is only 1 Truth, and it is the Truth of JEHOVAH Elohiym, being of, and belonging, to the LORD God. I do not have a monopoloy on Truth, as the Godhead shares with whomsoever They will.

Please go slowly, as it is not neccessary to place ones entire theology / eschatological position into a response. This thread is more about studying together, asking honest and sincere questions of one another about their positions held. People may openly disagree with one another, but please do so in a kindly fashion, with stated reasons / evidences for the disagreement. Allow the other respondant time to read, and engage with what is stated. If this thread, for whatever reason (generally satanic influences) becomes a name-calling event, as other threads, I will simply abandon this thread, and ask to have it closed by Moderation / Admin, or ask for a specific individual to be removed from further corrupt influence upon a sincerely intentioned endeavor.

"... be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." - Mat. 10:16 KJB​

Thank you all who participate in the Holy Spirit.

Hello. Thank you for taking the time to prepare this very important topic, which has everything to do about how we understand the timing of God's judgment to come.

I do not believe in a literal thousand year period of time in which the earth remains the same as it is now, with the exception of one area. When Jesus comes again, all things are going to be made new.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I do not believe in a literal thousand year period of time in which the earth remains the same as it is now, with the exception of one area. When Jesus comes again, all things are going to be made new.

You make a fair point regarding whether the 1,000 years should be understood literally or figuratively. I’m not dogmatic either way. What matters is that it represents a defined period in which the world is brought into subjection to Christ as King in Jerusalem, during which the Apostles administer the affairs of the twelve tribes of Israel. Many other events must take place before its start.

 

[ScottA]

Hi ScottA. I think you may have stumbled a bit on a particular choice of words in my reply, namely, in regards to the phrasing "...as the scripture, being inspired of God (2 Tim. 3;16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21 KJB), is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33 KJB), but of "order" (1 Cor. 14:40 KJB) and perfect 'timing' (Ecc. 3:1 KJB) ..." in post #1 - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

The context is "the Bible is defined in the Bible, by God therein", even "the scripture", when I stated "is not the author of confusion", and cited 1 Cor. 14:33. Here it is:

1Co 14:33 KJB - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.​

The previous context is 1 Cor. 14:31-32 (see also 1 Cor. 26-30):

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.​

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.​

Thus God is "not the author of confusion, but of peace" in reference to the written word of God (to the prophets, vs 32), and spoken words of present church members (the spirits / minds of the prophets in all the churches of the saints, vss 32,33). Never did I say, or intimate that God did not come down and confound the langauges at Babel in Gen. 11:1-11. My context, was as the context as scripture gave it, in reference to the words of God, in written and spoken (by His people) forms (ie. Isa. 8:20; 1 Pet. 4:11 KJB). God's words are not in confusion, and are non-contradictory. That was my point in my statement. I am well aware that God's word brings division (Mat. 10:34 KJB). So, I think you have read into my reply that which is not present, and then made a lengthy response to your own idea being read into my post.

I did send cautionary words along, in my further reply, in post #4 - "(please always be very careful in reading what I do say, not what I do not say, let none assume, just ask)" - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

I see your reply as diversionary from the actual OP, and not at present helpful to the main discussion, but I understand why you wrote what you did, only it is sincerely (and I mean that) mistaken upon what I wrote.

I agree that Jesus Christ is, as Heb. 13:4-8 states:

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.​

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.​

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.​

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.​

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​

Without getting into lengthy detail upon this passage, as it is not immediately germane to the OP on Rev. 20:1-15 per se, though I am not opposed to discussing it, or Jesus Christ, Hebrews 13:4-8 is citing several OT (and even paralleled in some NT) texts, and directly applying them to Jesus, as the JEHOVAH God who came down, and is eternally unchanging as Son of the Father, and thus is unchanging in His dealings with mankind, even since the time of Babel (which I am not, again, in disagreement with). Since there may be several persons in this study that are not in agreement with that, I do not at this time, desire to make it a point of contention (yet). I believe there is a place to discuss that in Rev. 20, but further in, and when i (we) get there, I think then may be the appropriate time to re-cover these points.

This means that your last statement, in conclusion, is in error, as the first premise strayed from what I said, and meant by the words and references provided. I hope you understand. Thank you. This will be the last reply to this point of your contention, as it is not my contention in the least, as I know what I said and meant, is differing in how you have preceived it.

I did quote you, and it is clear that you deliberately stated and thus used "God is not the author of confusion" to support your interpretations to follow. Which I would not define as "diversionary" so much as a call to cease that sort of tactic in your study, as it shows a lack of credibility. I was also quite concise--not "lengthy" as you say.

You would have done better to simply agree that saying one thing and meaning something else was not your intention.

My point of mentioning "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever", was in response to what sounded like you preemptively dismissing anything that does not agree with your own findings, as "private interpretation" and not to be heard.

Do as you will. But I do hope you understand that what we all do...we all do as unto Christ.

 

[Adventageous]

... continued from - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study ...

... to be continued on the words "an angel", but I will wait for Hiddenthings response to my question (previously asked) first ...

... continuing with Rev. 20:1, "an angel".

The word “angel” whether in Hebrew (H4397, "מלאך", "mal'akh'", from Gen. 16:7), Syriack (H4398, "מלאכה", "mal'ákhëH", from Dan. 3:28), koine Greek (G32, "αγγελος", "angelos", from Mat. 1:20) or English ("angel"), simply means ‘messenger, ambassador, that which carries or contains a message, bearing another’s testimony, or “sent” (Num. 20:16; 1 Chr. 21:15; 2 Chr. 32:21; Psa. 78:49; Dan. 3:28, 6:22; Hag. 1:13; Mat. 13:41, 24:31; Mar. 13:27; Luk. 1:19,26; Act. 12:11; Rev. 1:1, 22:6,16 KJB) with meaningful purpose of intent’.

This word, definitionally, does not ever speak of the physical nature of anything, but rather to the function, office or position of a thing, just as the words, “prophet”, “priest”, or “king” also do.

In saying this differently, the word does not inherently carry any definition of ‘created’ or ‘uncreated’, or ‘heavenly’ or ‘earthly’ in relation to the physical nature to that which the word describes, and neither does it inherently dictate that that which is sent is lesser in physical nature, stature, grandeur than that which it was sent by. Context will always determine additional attributes of any given messenger. The words are found in association with the following:

	The Eternal Infinite​
The Father in Heaven​	The Son, Jesus Christ​	The Holy Ghost / Spirit​
Jhn. 12:29​	Mal. 3:1b​	Rev. 18:1​

~​

The Created Finite (Heaven Originated) Good​	The Created Finite (Heaven Originated) Bad​
Heavenly Beings / Intelligences (Good)​	Ex-Heavenly Beings / Intelligences (Evil)​
Psa. 103:20; as Gabriel - Luk. 1:19,26​	Mat. 25:41; as Lucifer / Heylel - Isa. 14:12; Eze. 28:14; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jud. 1:6​

~​

The Created Finite (Earth Originated)​	The Created Finite (Earth Originated)​
Mankind - Man (Male)​	Mankind - Woman (Female)​
as Joshua’s spies - Jam. 2:25; as King David - 1 Sam. 29:9; 2 Sam. 14:17, 19:27; as David’s men - 1 Sam. 25:14,42; as King Saul’s men - 1 Sam. 19:20-21; as John the Baptist - Mal. 3:1a; Mat. 11:10; Mar. 1:2; Luk. 7:27; Jhn. 1:23; as John the Baptist’s followers - Luk. 7:24; as Jesus’ followers - Luk. 9:51-52; as Paul - Gal. 4:14; even associated with Stephen’s face - Act. 6:15​	as Deborah - Jdg. 5:1,23​

~​

The Created Finite (Other) (Living)​	The Created Finite (Other) (Generally Non-Living)​
Animals​	Elements​
Num. 22:27-28; 2 Pet. 2:16​	Job 38:35; Psa. 78:49 (43-50); Pro. 16:14; 2 Cor. 12:7​

~​

The same words for “angel” [mal'ak, angelos] in many instances refer to the ‘office’ [not nature] of the earthly created intelligences, such as prophets, priests, kings, etc., whether good or evil:

OT:​

​

Gen. 32:3,6; Num. 20:14, 21:21, 22:5, 24:12; Deu. 2:26; Jos. 6:17,25, 7:22; Jdg. 6:35, 7:24, 9:31, 11:12,13,14,17,19; 1 Sam. 6:21, 11:3,4,7,9, 16:19, 19:11,14,15,16,20,21, 23:27, 25:14,42; 2 Sam. 2:5, 3:12,14,26, 5:11, 11:4,19,22,23,25,27; 1 Kin. 19:2, 20:2,5,9, 22:13; 2 Kin. 1:3,5,16, 5:10, 6:32,33, 7:15, 9:18, 10:8, 14:8, 16:7, 17:4, 19:9,14,23; 1 Chr. 14:1, 19:2,16; 2 Chr. 18:12, 35:21, 36:15,16; Neh. 6:3; Job 1:14, 33:23; Pro. 13:17, 16:14, 17:11; Isa. 14:32, 18:2, 30:4, 33:7, 37:9,14, 42:19, 44:26; Jer. 27:3; Eze. 17:15, 23:16,40, 30:9; Nah. 2:13; Hag. 1:13; Mal. 2:7, 3:1.​

​

NT:​

​

Mat. 11:10; Mar. 1:2; Luk. 7:24,27, 9:52; Act. 6:15; 2 Cor. 11:13-15, 12:7; Gal. 4:14; Jam. 2:25; Rev. 2:1,8,12,18, 3:1,7,14, 14:6,8-9​

Other related words, are often found in association and brotherhood, helping to further define them, such as the words: “ambassador”, “messenger” (H6735, “ציר”, “tziyr”, Pro. 13:17, 25:13; Isa. 18:2, 57:9; Jer. 49:14; Oba. 1:1 KJB) or “ambassadors” (H6737, “ויצטירו”, “waYitz'ţaYärû”, Jos. 9:4 KJB) (H3887, “במליצי”, “Bim'liytzëy”, 2 Chr. 32:31 KJB) in the OT, or “ambassador”, “ambassage”, “message” (G4242, “πρεσβειαν”, “presbeian”, Luk. 14:32, 19:14 KJB) or “ambassadors” (G4243, “πρεσβευομεν, πρεσβευω”, “presbeuomen, presbeuw”, 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 6:20 KJB), in the NT. 

The words “apostle” (G652, “αποστολους”, “apostolous”, with the meaning of ‘one who is sent for another, usually with a message, or purpose, or item’, 2 Cor. 11:13; Heb. 3:1 KJB) and “false apostles” (G5570, “ψευδαποστολοι”, “pseudapostoloi”, 2 Cor. 11:13 KJB) and “ministers” (G1249, “διακονοι”, “diakonoi”, 2 Cor. 11:15 KJB), “ministers” (H8334, “משׁרתיו”, “m'shär'täy”, & G3011, “λειτουργους”, “leitourgous”, Heb. 1:7 KJB), “ministering” (G3010, “λειτουργικα”, “leitourgika”, Heb. 1:14 KJB), “minister” (G1248, “διακονιαν”, “diakonian”, Heb. 1:14 KJB), are likewise found in association with the word “angel” (H4397, “מלאך”, “mal'akh'”, Exo. 3:2 KJB; & G32, “αγγελον”, “angelon”, Act. 7:30,38,53; 2 Cor. 11:14; Gal. 4:14; Heb. 1:7,14 KJB).

JEHOVAH sends many ‘angels’ or many ‘messengers’; those of mercy, and yet even ‘messengers’ of warning, punishment and death, and even included among such are animals and the elements (Exo. 9:14; Lev. 26:22; Deu. 32:24; 1 Kin. 18:1; 2 Chr. 7:13; Job 38:35; Psa. 68:9, 78:43-50; Eze. 5:17; Mal. 2:2; &c).

See Chapter 2, Section 3, pages 14-16 for the source for this material, and on the word "angel" - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

... to be continued ...

 

[ewq1938]

Jehovah's Witness doctrines and beliefs?

 

[Adventageous]

... continuing with Rev. 20:1, "an angel". ...

See Chapter 2, Section 3, pages 14-16 for the source for this material, and on the word "angel" - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

... to be continued ...

... continued ...

So, in Rev. 20:1, we read of "an angel", "αγγελον", which is N-ASM (Noun - Accusative - Singular - Masculine) and has no definite article (no "the")

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.​

​

Rev 20:1 και ειδον αγγελον καταβαινοντα εκ του ουρανου εχοντα την κλειδα της αβυσσου και αλυσιν μεγαλην επι την χειρα αυτου​

​

Rev 20:1 καιG2532 CONJ ειδονG3708 V-2AAI-1S αγγελονG32 N-ASM καταβαινονταG2597 V-PAP-ASM εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSM ουρανουG3772 N-GSM εχονταG2192 V-PAP-ASM τηνG3588 T-ASF κλειδαG2807 N-ASF τηςG3588 T-GSF αβυσσουG12 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ αλυσινG254 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF επιG1909 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF χειραG5495 N-ASF αυτουG846 P-GSM​

​

Rev. 20:1- Interlinear - Revelation 20:1 Interlinear: And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,​

This is a messenger sent from JEHOVAH, the Ancient of days (Dan. 7:9,13,22 KJB), from "heaven" "down" towards the earth (implied) and paralleled in Rev. 9:1, see chart on past #5 - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study and is bearing "the key of the bottomless pit", and "a great chain in his hand". At this point only this "an angel" is being discussed.

This "angel" is no ordinary personage of Heaven, and is not even among the created heavenly hosts, for it is none other than the Son of the Father (the 'angel (messenger) of the covenant'; Mal. 3:1b) holding these things, for notice in 1 Thes. 4:16 (paralleled in Jhn. 5:25,28-29 KJB, and in Job 14:15 KJB and context thereof):

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

1Th 4:16 οτι αυτος ο κυριος εν κελευσματι εν φωνη αρχαγγελου και εν σαλπιγγι θεου καταβησεται απ ουρανου και οι νεκροι εν χριστω αναστησονται πρωτον​

​

John 5:25 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.​

​

John 5:28 KJB - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,​

​

John 5:29 KJB - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

The Son of the Father is called an "angel" in other places in the Revelation, such as in Rev. 10:1,5,8-10:

Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:​

​

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,​

​

Rev 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.​

​

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.​

​

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.​

The very symbolic description of this "angel" (messenger) for the Father, matches several other OT places, and even some NT places, for the description of the Son of the Father. For more details, see Chapter 6, pages 54-60 - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive as well as other Chapters and comparison charts beginning on pages 157-161 - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

When the other symbols ("key", "bottomless pit", "great chain", &c., such as the connecting resurrections of the righteous (saved) and finally impentitent (lost) mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6) are studied in connection with this "an angel" it will be more clear still.

Yet even still, throughout scripture, the Son has been sent down to the earth by the Father on numerous occasions, even beginning in Genesis, and continuing throughout. A few brief (non-exhaustive) mentions:

Gen. 3:8, "the voice of the LORD God", walking in the Garden of earthly Eden.​

Gen. 11:5, "and the LORD came down"​

Gen. 17:1, "the LORD appeared to Abraham"​

Gen. 18:1,21, "the LORD appeared unto [Abraham]", "I will go down now"​

Gen. 19:24, "the LORD rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah" (while standing on the earth, having left off talking with Abraham)​

Exo. 3:2,4,6 "the angel (messenger) of the LORD (JEHOVAH the Father)", "... the LORD ... God ... out of the midst of the bush ...", "Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."​

Exo. 13:21, "And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:"​

Exo. 14:21, "Exo_14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,"​

Exo. 23:20-21,23 "I (the Father) send an Angel (the messenger of the Father, the Son), before thee, to keep thee in the way ...", "... my (the Father's) name is in him (the Son).", "mine (the Father's) Angel (messenger, representative, the Son)​

&c.​

Jhn. 1:11, "He came unto his own ..." (1st Advent)​

NT (throughout) - Jesus continually refers to the Father sending the Son down to the earth with the good news.​

In Rev. He comes down in the 2nd, and yea, even 3rd Advents.​

However, skeptics will always say:

Exo 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.​

Even in Malachi 3:1, the Son is directly called the 'angel (messenger) of the covenant':

Mal 3:1 KJB - Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (Heb. H4397 "ומלאך", "ûmal'akh'", "angel"; Grk. G32, "ἄγγελος", "angelos") of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.​

​

Mal 3:1 HOT - הנני שׁלח מלאכי ופנה־דרך לפני ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשׁר־אתם מבקשׁים ומלאך הברית אשׁר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא אמר יהוה צבאות׃​

​

Mal 3:1 HOT Transliterated - hin'niy sholëªch mal'äkhiy ûfiNäh-derekh' l'fänäy ûfit'om yävô el-hëykhälô häädôn ásher-aTem m'vaq'shiym ûmal'akh' haB'riyt ásher-aTem cháfëtziym hiNëh-vä ämar j'hväh tz'väôt​

​

Mal 3:1 Origen's Hexapla Greek - ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.​

Jesus is often connected with "keys" as well. See Isa. 22:22; Rev. 3:7-8, and Mat. 16:19; & Mat. 11:52; & Rev. 1:18; see also Mar. 7:34; Luk. 3:21; Rev. 8:1, &c. More detail shall be studied, when coming to the phrase "key of the bottomless pit".

 

[Adventageous]

Jehovah's Witness doctrines and beliefs?

If you are replying to myself, to answer the question succinctly, I am not (nor ever have been) a member of the WatchTower and Tract Society, nor a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. What I am presenting is simply a scriptural study. All are free to comment, reply, ask a question about any particular point as they deem fit. Thank you for your replies and presence here.

 

[ewq1938]

NT (throughout) - Jesus continually refers to the Father sending the Son down to the earth with the good news.​

In Rev. He comes down in the 2nd, and yea, even 3rd Advents.​

There is no third advent, and Jesus is not in heaven at the timeframe of Rev 20:1. It is simply an angel, not Jesus or Michael because Jesus is not Michael.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Adventageous

It seems you’re more intent on copying and pasting large amounts of material than on dealing directly with your earlier error regarding the doctrine of firstfruits.

We’ve now reached a point in the discussion where a choice needs to be made: either you continue to copy and paste someone else's material, or you acknowledge that your position on Enoch (and related matters) was incorrect.

You either understand Hebrews 11 (and 1 Corinthians 15) or you don't - no middle ground on this one sorry.

 

[Adventageous]

There is no third advent, and Jesus is not in heaven at the timeframe of Rev 20:1. It is simply an angel, not Jesus or Michael because Jesus is not Michael.

In a brief detour on Advents,

Do you agree that Jesus came down a first time from Heaven (3rd)?, say as per Jhn. 1:1-18, 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:47?
Do you agree that Jesus after that first coming / Advent, returned to His original position in the 3rd Heaven, say as per, Mar. 16;19; Jhn. 16:28; Act. 1:9-10, 2:33, 7:55-56; Rom. 8:34; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22; &c.?

Do you agree that Jesus will come down a second time from Heaven (3rd)", say as per 1 Thes. 4:16-17?
Do you agree that Jesus will return to Heaven (3rd) with the resurrected and translated saints?, say as per Jhn. 14:1-4; 1 Thes. 4:14?
Do you think that Jesus will touch the sin-polluted earth at the 2nd Advent?, or rather that He will remain in the "air", and all righteous are gathered from the 4 quarters of the earth, and "caught up" unto Him and return with Him back to the Father's house?

Do you agree that Jesus will come down from heaven (3rd) with the New Jerusalem, and all the saints with Him, to the earth, at the ending of the 1000 years, say as per Rev. 21:2,10, 20:7,9; Zec. 14:2,4?

Just curious, Where do you think Jesus is "at the timeframe of Rev. 20:1", since you do not believe Jesus is in heaven at that time?

I am not really here posting in this thread to fully demonstrate the Jesus - Michael connections in scripture. For that, I have linked to a book, with all of those details. If you disagree (even after reading that material; Pro. 18:13,17 KJB), I am not here to really argue the point, as it is not really relevant to Rev. 20:1-15, per se, and would distract from the main discussion.

At this point, I am only presenting the case that the "an angel" of Rev. 20:1, simply a designation for the Son, as messenger for the Father's person, and who comes down to seal the Devil, for 1000 years, among other things.

I am not aware of any other 'angel' (any other messenger, in heaven or earth) that has the capability to seal away the devil. Even the created and powerful covering cherub Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, needed assistance from the infinite stregth of Jesus to combat the devil in the time of Daniel. In the NT, it requires the Holy Ghost to cast out devils. From my study of scripture, only the Godhead is able to subdue the devil (Job 41; Rev. 12; Mat. 4:4; Luk 4:4; Eze. 28; &c.) Perhaps you know of such an one in scripture, and if so, please point to this angel to corrborate what you have said about Rev. 20:1.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is no third advent, and Jesus is not in heaven at the timeframe of Rev 20:1. It is simply an angel, not Jesus or Michael because Jesus is not Michael.

Can I ask you a question not relating to the above points.

Do you believe there will be a pre-millennial Gog as predicted in the prophecy of Ezekiel 38?

 

[Adventageous]

Hello. Thank you for taking the time to prepare this very important topic, which has everything to do about how we understand the timing of God's judgment to come.

I do not believe in a literal thousand year period of time in which the earth remains the same as it is now, with the exception of one area. When Jesus comes again, all things are going to be made new.

Oh hello Luther7. I love Martin Luther (as a Reformationist), and one of my brother's own middle name is also Luther. :) I also like the number 7, completeness.

You are welcome. The other thread was going downhill pretty fast into personal assasults. I am trying, by God's grace, to stick with scriptural study, with kindly, but valid, replies.

If I may ask just a few questions of you?

Have you always not believed "in a literal thousand year period of time"?

Have you studied the scripture in the 6-7 days, and the 6-7,000 years type and antitype?

Have you considered the entire Christian historical position on that matter (above)? Would you like to? -

- An image may be seen in summary here - The Redemption Of The Creation 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel Files : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

- an ODT (Open Text Document may be DL'ed here, with all the historical citations, and Bible study on that matter) - https://archive.org/download/the-redemption-of-the-creation-7000-years-and-the-everlasting-gospel_202301/7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel.odt​

- an ODT (Open Text Document) on the age of the earth in scriptural study may be DL'ed here - https://archive.org/download/the-redemption-of-the-creation-7000-years-and-the-everlasting-gospel_202301/Age of the Earth.odt​

You do not have to, I am just curious as to whether you had ever studied that, or heard of such a thing?

I do not believe that when Jesus comes the second time, all things will be made new, but will be left in total and utter ruination for 1000 years, having been wracked by the 7 last plagues, the greatest earthquake to come, and the atmosphere burning off, left as a desolate wilderness for 'dragons' and 'owls' (satan and his fallen hosts of the night). I believe that renewal takes place at the 3rd Advent, after the total annihilation of the finally impenitant (lost, satan, and all who have followed him in rebellion), at the end of the 1,000 years. When I get to the "1000 years" portion (beginning in Rev. 20:2), I will presenting many texts on that subject.

 

[Adventageous]

@Adventageous

What’s fascinating about studying Enoch is that my beliefs adhere strictly to the Scriptures, whereas yours rely on the “heaven-going” doctrine, a concept introduced through the speculations of early Church Fathers like Tertullian and Origen, who incorporated the Greek notion of the soul’s immortality.

Hebrews 11 puts this false teaching to rest.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Heb 11:39–40.

Still in the dust awaiting the resurrection - all of them!...Enoch included!

A long time ago, I had written a response to such positions as you now take. You (any) may read of it / them here (link below), and I will essentially be done with this portion of the discussion, since I believe it is simply distracting from the main OP material in regards Rev. 20:1-15. You may of course disagree, and that is within your allowed perview. If you desire to respond in thread, that is fine, and I will read such, but I believe that the following will address all your presently given concerns (Pro. 18:13,17 KJB).

Enoch & Elijah and more - Hebrews 11 Enoch These All Died For Jehovah's Witnesses WTS JW : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Hiddenthings]

A long time ago, I had written a response to such positions as you now take.

That was a position that was correct, yet for some unknown reason you have now shifted to this false understanding. It’s clear you have no interest in actually engaging with Hebrews 11 or 1 Corinthians 15; instead, all you offer are unwanted links to JW materials...

It’s unfortunate, because by doing so you’ve closed the door on what could have been a genuine learning experience for you.

A word of advice: avoid relying on links and copying the erroneous teachings of others, and instead engage directly with God’s Word, becoming a true fellow laborer in understanding it.

While we did find some points of agreement, your approach comes across as insincere and impersonal.

Posts #13 & #14 is where you stumbled.

May the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ lead you into His Truth.

 

[Adventageous]

You only have evidence of Christ ascending Heaven as the firstfruits

1 Corinthians 15:20–23: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming."

An important distinction! - Christ was not the first to be raised, but first to be raised to eternal life.

I should note also that 1 Corinthians 15 is in harmony with Hebrews 11.

This will be my last reply upon this topic, as I believe it is presently distracting from the OP's intent to study Rev. 20:1-15, though it seem to be very important to you, which is why I have spent so much time upon it thus far with you. You may of course disagree with that, and continue to reply as you see fit, but I will more than likely not see any further need to address it, having provided the necessary means (through scriptures) for any (who read these exchanges) to study and know fore themselves the teachings of scripture without you or I involved.

Yes, as I (and yourself) have stated Christ Jesus upon His resurrection from the dead, became the "firstruits" of them that slept ... (1 Cor. 15:20,23 KJB). Please take careful notice of that last piece of phrasing, "of them that slept". This is why I went through so much trouble to cite many texts, and to respond to various points, that Enoch, Moses, Elijah are very much alive and in glory (having been glorified and taken back to Heaven (3rd)), and not sleeping in the dust of the earth at the time of Jesus' resurrection.

Furthermore, in post #4 I cited many scriptures in regads the '5 groups' (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, and a group labelled 'firstfruits' since they are not specifically identified by their own names) taken to heaven - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

In matters of the 5th group, 'the firstfruits', I stated in that post:

"... Firstfruits (NT) - Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; & Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Victory Train into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Acts 1. ..."​

When Jesus arose from the dead, he was not the only one raised to immortality.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

​

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.​

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;​

Mat 27:52a - And the graves were opened;​

Mat. 27:52b - and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,​

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

In other words, when Jesus died, an earthquake occured, which shook the land, and the nearby graves (tombs / sepulchres) were opened. They lay in that condition 3 days (friday night, all the next day, unto early morning the day after that before sunrise).

When Jesus arose from the dead, another earthquake occured (when Gabriel descended; Mat. 28:2, these two earthquakes are tied to the final earthquakes, one of which has already occured, see the following comparison chart here (Side 1) - Single Page (Dual Sided) Charts - Prophecy Print Outs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ), and when Jesus arose, so too did "many" "of the saints" "which slept" in Christ Jesus, and Isaiah 26:19 states that their resurrection is "as the dew of herbs", refreshed, made new. They had lived around Jerusalem, and were known at that time. No names are given of who exactly these were, nor of their age, nor rank / status in life, male or female. My own personal opinion (and that is all that it is, and nothing more, simply an idea I like, but could still be wrong about) is that John the Baptist might have been one of them, since he was essentially killed locally, buried locally, and most knew him. But I leave it as non-dogmatic, and just a theory of my own. Any may take or leave the idea as they see fit. I cannot prove it from scripture, and I have never seen anyone disprove it by the same. So it is what it is.

Furthermore, in the texts provided (above, and before), I also cite Psa. 24 (which is to repeat at the 2nd Advent), which spoke (originally of the first advent / coming and the resurrection and ascension of Jesus with the victory train of resurrected persons in tow:

Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.​

Psa 24:2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.​

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?​

Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.​

Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.​

Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.​

Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.​

Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.​

Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.​

Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.​

Paul in utlizing this, along with Psa. 68:18, quotes it in Eph. 4:8.

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.​

​

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.​

Psa. 68 in original context, was the salvation brought about by JEHOVAH in the matter of the Israelite peoples, being saved out of the land of Egypt and the bonds of death there, unto the Mountain of God (on earth. Mt. Sinai). God ascended out, along with a raised people unto Himself (Exo. 19). Paul then sees the antitype in the Son's endeavor, and the resurrection of those special dead, that were then taken back to God's Holy Mountain (Heaven above, Mt. Zion). Jesus literally led "captivity" (those that were bound in death) "captive" (victoriously retrieved in His own victory) back to the Father. They, like in Lev. 23:9-14, feast of "firstfruits" (first day of the week, 16th Day of the first Month Abib in that year AD 31), are the first portion of the great harvest to come (Rev. 14:14-16; Mat. 13:39 KJB). Jesus is the pre-eminent (chief) among that resurrected group. Jesus, the "King of Glory", even "the LORD of hosts" triumphantly entered into the New Jerusalem above, with a victory train of redeemed peoples. It was a special resurrection, in antitype of Firstfruits, before the great harvest. Please see the other scriptures mentioned above, like Psa. 98:1-3, in connection to Col. 2, &c.

 

[Adventageous]

@Adventageous

It seems you’re more intent on copying and pasting large amounts of material than on dealing directly with your earlier error regarding the doctrine of firstfruits.

We’ve now reached a point in the discussion where a choice needs to be made: either you continue to copy and paste someone else's material, or you acknowledge that your position on Enoch (and related matters) was incorrect.

You either understand Hebrews 11 (and 1 Corinthians 15) or you don't - no middle ground on this one sorry.

I think you may have a misunderstanding. Everything I am linking to or have copied from (to save me time, and headache, as I am still rather ill, as you might have read in the prayer request section), I am the author of. My name is on the material.

I cannot acknowledge any such thing as you presently request, because I am not in error upon the points I have provided, and with evidence, documented that position. I will let my responses up to this point stand as they are, and feel that they are sufficiently given so that all may decide to study the matter for themselves.

Yes, you are free to disagree with me upon that point. From the beginning, I did state that it was a 'niche' point and not really relevant to the overall discussion of Rev. 20:1-15. I was simply engaging with your responses.

I understand everything I have presented.