The Heaven Going Lie

[Hiddenthings]

Hi @Marilyn C

To avoid derailing the other thread, I’ve started a new one to examine the texts Christians often cite in support of the “heaven-going” belief.

Instead of focusing on the many clear biblical passages showing that the grave is the destination for the dead, I thought it would be more useful to go through the more challenging references that are commonly used to argue the opposite.

Lets look at Matthew 5:12 "Great is your reward in heaven"

If your reward is in heaven, then there are two possibilities:

1. The righteous go to heaven to obtain it.
2. The reward comes from heaven to the righteous (here on earth).

If you go over to 1 Peter 1:4 what do you think is the likely answer?

 

[marks]

It seems to me we should consider these places also:

Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 KJV
5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

John 11:25-26 KJV
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Much love!

 

[Hiddenthings]

It seems to me we should consider these places also:

Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 KJV
5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

John 11:25-26 KJV
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Much love!

Yes, they are on my list!

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi @Marilyn C

To avoid derailing the other thread, I’ve started a new one to examine the texts Christians often cite in support of the “heaven-going” belief.

Instead of focusing on the many clear biblical passages showing that the grave is the destination for the dead, I thought it would be more useful to go through the more challenging references that are commonly used to argue the opposite.

Lets look at Matthew 5:12 "Great is your reward in heaven"

If your reward is in heaven, then there are two possibilities:

1. The righteous go to heaven to obtain it.
2. The reward comes from heaven to the righteous (here on earth).

If you go over to 1 Peter 1:4 what do you think is the likely answer?

Hi Hidden,

Thank you for the invitation to discuss here.

My first point would be that when Jesus said `Great is your reward in heaven,` He was talking to the Jews. The Body of Christ was not revealed at that time or even started. (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

Jesus was confirming the promises made to the fathers. (Rom. 15: 8) Thus it is not a scripture for us in the Body of Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It seems to me we should consider these places also:

Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 KJV
5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

John 11:25-26 KJV
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Much love!

No vote cast?
Not willing to answer the question on 1 Peter 1:4?
Maybe you're not in the mood to play along?

It's very clear the Bible teaches the "life" or "reward" is brought with Christ at his coming.

"....he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Pe 1:3–5.

In simple terms, the reward is received through the resurrection, not at the moment of death.

Even more simply, the reward, Christ’s eternal life within him, will be granted to the faithful when he returns.

The inheritance promised to the faithful is a cornerstone of God’s purpose for His people. As Deuteronomy 4:20 and other passages declare, God calls His people to be an inheritance unto Him. This inheritance is far more than a mere earthly reward; it encompasses the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34), the earth (Matthew 5:5), and eternal life (Matthew 19:29), all granted by promise through the Word of God (Galatians 3:18,29; 1 Peter 3:9; Acts 20:32).

It can never be spoiled, the term amianton in the New Testament signifies that no defect or flaw can taint this inheritance. In a world where titles are challenged and reputations marred, the inheritance in Christ stands without blemish (Revelation 21:8,27; James 1:27; Hebrews 13:4).

Nor can it fade. The Greek amaranton, derived from marainoo (to wither or dry up), captures the contrast between transient earthly things—like flowers that wither or inscriptions on tombs that disappear—and the lasting nature of God’s promise. Our inheritance in Christ will never fade or lose its beauty; it endures eternally, vibrant and full of life.

Finally, it is kept, guarded and preserved by God, as Psalm 31:19, Matthew 6:25-29, John 14:2, and 2 Timothy 4:8 attest. Nothing in heaven or on earth can pluck it from the hands of the faithful. It is a secure, living promise, entrusted to those who walk in obedience and faith.

This inheritance is not merely a hope, it is a certainty, a divine guarantee that surpasses all earthly gains. In Christ, we are offered a reward that cannot perish, spoil, or fade, and it is preserved for all who remain faithful until his glorious return.

 

[marks]

It's very clear the Bible teaches the "life" or "reward" is brought with Christ at his coming.

Personally, I find it very clear that we now have celestial life with Jesus, and I fail to see any indication that this changes with our physical death. I understand you see it differently.

Much love!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Hi Hidden,

Thank you for the invitation to discuss here.

My first point would be that when Jesus said `Great is your reward in heaven,` He was talking to the Jews. The Body of Christ was not revealed at that time or even started. (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

Jesus was confirming the promises made to the fathers. (Rom. 15: 8) Thus it is not a scripture for us in the Body of Christ.

Let me be very clear: are you suggesting that the Beatitudes, Christ’s Sermon on the Mount applies only to Jews and not to his disciples?

Matthew 5:1–2 “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying…

In all my time in over 40 years of study and communicating with believers I have never heard a person discount Matthew 5 as not applying to the body of Christ.

I can only think you have made a mistake.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Personally, I find it very clear that we now have celestial life with Jesus, and I fail to see any indication that this changes with our physical death. I understand you see it differently.

Much love!

Thank you for your response; I’m sure you can see how underwhelming it was. It’s almost tantamount to saying, “I don’t care what the Bible teaches; I will hold on to my own beliefs."

What is more concerning is that you appear to believe you already possess immortality, so that the life promised to you comes through physical death rather than through resurrection, a concept that is nowhere taught in the Bible.

 

[Marilyn C]

Let me be very clear: are you suggesting that the Beatitudes, Christ’s Sermon on the Mount applies only to Jews and not to his disciples?

Matthew 5:1–2 “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying…

In all my time in over 40 years of study and communicating with believers I have never heard a person discount Matthew 5 as not applying to the body of Christ.

I can only think you have made a mistake.

No mistake. The difficulty that blinds people to this fact is that we are very self-centered and like to read God`s word as ALL about US. When actually God`s word is ALL about the Lord, and His purposes for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. Get those muddled up and you end up `soup.`

And BTW you have NOT addressed the scriptures I referred to in my post. Just because you and some believers have not had access to what I and many others in the Body of Christ hold true doesn`t make it wrong.

 

[Marilyn C]

No vote cast?
Not willing to answer the question on 1 Peter 1:4?
Maybe you're not in the mood to play along?

It's very clear the Bible teaches the "life" or "reward" is brought with Christ at his coming.

"....he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Pe 1:3–5.

In simple terms, the reward is received through the resurrection, not at the moment of death.

Even more simply, the reward, Christ’s eternal life within him, will be granted to the faithful when he returns.

The inheritance promised to the faithful is a cornerstone of God’s purpose for His people. As Deuteronomy 4:20 and other passages declare, God calls His people to be an inheritance unto Him. This inheritance is far more than a mere earthly reward; it encompasses the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34), the earth (Matthew 5:5), and eternal life (Matthew 19:29), all granted by promise through the Word of God (Galatians 3:18,29; 1 Peter 3:9; Acts 20:32).

It can never be spoiled, the term amianton in the New Testament signifies that no defect or flaw can taint this inheritance. In a world where titles are challenged and reputations marred, the inheritance in Christ stands without blemish (Revelation 21:8,27; James 1:27; Hebrews 13:4).

Nor can it fade. The Greek amaranton, derived from marainoo (to wither or dry up), captures the contrast between transient earthly things—like flowers that wither or inscriptions on tombs that disappear—and the lasting nature of God’s promise. Our inheritance in Christ will never fade or lose its beauty; it endures eternally, vibrant and full of life.

Finally, it is kept, guarded and preserved by God, as Psalm 31:19, Matthew 6:25-29, John 14:2, and 2 Timothy 4:8 attest. Nothing in heaven or on earth can pluck it from the hands of the faithful. It is a secure, living promise, entrusted to those who walk in obedience and faith.

This inheritance is not merely a hope, it is a certainty, a divine guarantee that surpasses all earthly gains. In Christ, we are offered a reward that cannot perish, spoil, or fade, and it is preserved for all who remain faithful until his glorious return.

Yes, it is wonderful that each inheritance (glorified body) in the Lord can never be spoiled, nor can fade away, but is kept, as you say.

The point however, that we need to discuss are the places where the different groups will be in eternity, using God`s word.

1. The Body of Christ.

2. The Old Testament Saints.

3. Israel and the Nations.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No mistake. The difficulty that blinds people to this fact is that we are very self-centered and like to read God`s word as ALL about US.

The teachings of the Lord apply to both Jew and Gentile, and there is no evidence to suggest that Matthew 5–7 was intended solely for the Jews.

You are mistaken, plainly and completely. In fact, every one of the Apostles references the principles of Matthew 5–7 in their own writings, which renders your argument completely invalid.

Wow - its a head shake moment which I'm certain others reading your beliefs would be in dismay.

When actually God`s word is ALL about the Lord, and His purposes for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. Get those muddled up and you end up `soup.`

We have established the soup don't worry about that!

And BTW you have NOT addressed the scriptures I referred to in my post. Just because you and some believers have not had access to what I and many others in the Body of Christ hold true doesn`t make it wrong.

You must be referring to Heb. 12:22

Hebrews 12:22–25 presents a profound vision of the believer’s hope, linking the faith of the Old Testament saints with the ultimate revelation of Christ in the Apocalypse. These verses serve as a bridge, connecting the earthly realities of Mount Zion and Jerusalem with their heavenly counterparts revealed in Scripture.

What is clear from Hebrews 11:39 & 12:22 is that these lives (or spirits) of these men and women have not yet been made perfect, a point the writer has already established as the foundation for understanding their faith.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Heb 11:39–40.

All these are still awaiting to be raised from the grave.

 

[Hiddenthings]

We can therefore conclude that Matthew 5:12 aligns with 1 Peter 1:4 and is consistent with Hebrews 11:39 and 12:22. As we continue, you will see that many other passages harmonize with the teaching that immortality, that is, eternal life is a reward reserved in heaven, awaiting revelation for all the dead (both raised) and faithful living at Christ’s return.

We can add to this summary as we progress.

 

[Marilyn C]

Let me be very clear: are you suggesting that the Beatitudes, Christ’s Sermon on the Mount applies only to Jews and not to his disciples?

Matthew 5:1–2 “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying…

In all my time in over 40 years of study and communicating with believers I have never heard a person discount Matthew 5 as not applying to the body of Christ.

I can only think you have made a mistake.

Can you please address these scriptures?

My first point would be that when Jesus said `Great is your reward in heaven,` He was talking to the Jews. The Body of Christ was not revealed at that time or even started. (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

Jesus was confirming the promises made to the fathers. (Rom. 15: 8) Thus it is not a scripture for us in the Body of Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Can you please address these scriptures?

My first point would be that when Jesus said `Great is your reward in heaven,` He was talking to the Jews. The Body of Christ was not revealed at that time or even started. (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

Jesus was confirming the promises made to the fathers. (Rom. 15: 8) Thus it is not a scripture for us in the Body of Christ.

Sorry Marilyn, as I’ve already explained, Matthew 5–7 is addressed to the body of Christ (His disciples) and cannot simply be set aside, as you have done. The wealth of principles in the Master’s teachings forms the foundation of Kingdom citizenship, so your admission that you disregard these teachings is deeply concerning. More so than your false understanding of heaven going.

Peter is quoting the substance of Matthew 5:12 in 1 Peter 4:1 and you fail to acknowledge it.

“...an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you...” to be given upon the Lords coming.

I would rather correct your misunderstanding as James also quotes the principles in Matthew 5:12

James 1:12 "Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial, because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.”

Hebrews 11:39–40 “...all these, though commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had planned something better...

First make the correction which Jesus, Paul and James all agree on and then we can proceed.

 

[marks]

It’s almost tantamount to saying, “I don’t care what the Bible teaches; I will hold on to my own beliefs."

Not in the slightest, but it's interesting to note how quickly you dive into ad hominems.

Would you say that maturity in doctrine is accompanied by maturity in character?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What is more concerning is that you appear to believe you already possess immortality, so that the life promised to you comes through physical death rather than through resurrection, a concept that is nowhere taught in the Bible.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Jesus taught that if you live and believe in Him you will never die. Do you believe this?

Here is a passage that may inform you,

Galatians 2:20 KJV
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We live because Christ lives in us. If we are His, that is.

Much love!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Not in the slightest, but it's interesting to note how quickly you dive into ad hominems.

Would you say that maturity in doctrine is accompanied by maturity in character?

Much love!

It's a long history Marks! I've known your approach for many years and it sadly has not changed. Maybe that's a sign?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Jesus taught that if you live and believe in Him you will never die. Do you believe this?

Correct, hence the resurrection!

have you not read Pauls teaching in Philippians 3:11 "if somehow I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

Here is a passage that may inform you,

Galatians 2:20 KJV
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We live because Christ lives in us. If we are His, that is.

Much love!

I wonder if you can see it Marks?

In one of his most heartfelt personal expressions, Paul bears witness to the profound moral power of Christ’s life and sacrifice when he declares that the Son of God "loved me and gave himself for me." Nothing else can match the spiritual impact of fully embracing this truth. Christ did not simply die for “us” as an abstract collective; the true, awe-inspiring wonder is that he died for each of us as individuals, each personally known and loved by him.

That life which is Christs should be manifested now "in the flesh" and lived in the hope of being raised via his resurrection upon his return. If Paul considered death but a sleep why can't you?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.”

I'm curious, what you consider "death", Paul considers "sleep" - I'm left wondering who has faith and who does not?

 

[Marilyn C]

Sorry Marilyn, as I’ve already explained, Matthew 5–7 is addressed to the body of Christ (His disciples) and cannot simply be set aside, as you have done. The wealth of principles in the Master’s teachings forms the foundation of Kingdom citizenship, so your admission that you disregard these teachings is deeply concerning. More so than your false understanding of heaven going.

Peter is quoting the substance of Matthew 5:12 in 1 Peter 4:1 and you fail to acknowledge it.

“...an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you...” to be given upon the Lords coming.

I would rather correct your misunderstanding as James also quotes the principles in Matthew 5:12

James 1:12 "Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial, because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.”

Hebrews 11:39–40 “...all these, though commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had planned something better...

First make the correction which Jesus, Paul and James all agree on and then we can proceed.

I don`t disregard the Lord`s teachings to the Jews, but see them in their right context.

1. So, is YOUR righteousness more than the Pharisees?

`For I (Jesus) say to you, that unless YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will no means enter the kingdom of heaven.` (Matt. 5: 20)


2. And, did you forgive men their trespasses before you became a Christian?

`But if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trrespasses.` (Matt. 6: 15)


3. Now which is it - heaven or earth?

`Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.` (Matt. 5: 3)

`Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)


4. James 1: 12. I agree with. And there are 5 different crowns given out.


5. Heb. 11: 40. `God having provided something better for us,...` In the Greek it means a greater dominion.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don`t disregard the Lord`s teachings to the Jews, but see them in their right context.

1. So, is YOUR righteousness more than the Pharisees?

`For I (Jesus) say to you, that unless YOUR righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will no means enter the kingdom of heaven.` (Matt. 5: 20)


2. And, did you forgive men their trespasses before you became a Christian?

`But if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trrespasses.` (Matt. 6: 15)


3. Now which is it - heaven or earth?

`Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.` (Matt. 5: 3)

`Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.` (Matt. 5: 5)


4. James 1: 12. I agree with. And there are 5 different crowns given out.


5. Heb. 11: 40. `God having provided something better for us,...` In the Greek it means a greater dominion.

All of which was said to his disciples - his body!

And you mentioned the earth is their reward! Well, that dispels heaven going.