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All the JEHOVAH stuff made it seem like that but the Millennium in heaven would be SDA doctrine.
Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study
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All the JEHOVAH stuff made it seem like that but the Millennium in heaven would be SDA doctrine.
Hi Marilyn C,
I am glad you are looking forward to reading through. That was the intention of this thread to begin with. :)
I am aware of Heb. 12:22, and I address that in this book, Chapter 29, pages 111-113 here - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The context, given on page 111, of Heb. 12:18-29 KJB.
Paul contrasts the great Exodus events of Mt. Sinai on earth, in the Old Testament, and the temporary old covenant there made (Exo. 19:3-8 KJB) with Mt. Sion in Heaven where God’s spoken eternal (‘aka.’ New) Covenant (Exo. 19:5 KJB) of Ten Commandments (Exo. 20:1-17 KJB) were spoken out of the midst of fire from Heaven (Deu. 4:12,15,33,36, 5:4,22-26, 9:10, 10:4 KJB) that the Israelites then agreed to “perform”.
Paul specifically lists several things that the people that now follow God have in their own Exodus experience from out of the world / worldliness, and have come to:
[1] ye are come unto mount Sion, and
[2] unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and
[3] to an innumerable company of angels, [and]
[4] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and
[5] to God the Judge of all, and
[6] to the spirits of just men made perfect, And
[7] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and
[8] to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
mount Sion is the heavenly mountain (Rev. 14:1 KJB), upon which sits
the city of the living God, in heaven, the heavenly Jerusalem above (Gal. 4:26 KJB), wherein dwells
an innumerable company of heavenly created intelligences, the angelic beings (Psa. 104:4; Heb. 1:6-7,14, 12:9 KJB),
to the living Christians, the present “church” (Mat. 16:18, 18:17; Act. 2:47, 5:11, 8:1,3; 1 Cor. 10:32, 12:28; 1 Tim. 3:15 KJB, &c.), who have followed Christ Jesus (“the firstborn”; Psa. 89:27; Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15,18 KJB) and have their names written in the books of Heaven (Luk. 10:20 KJB),
Luke 10:17 KJB - And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luke 10:20 KJB - Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
to God the Father, the Judge of all (Psa. 68:5; Jhn. 5:30, 8:16; Rom. 3:6; Heb. 10:30, 13:4 KJB),
to the spirits (G4151, “πνευμασιν,” “pneumasin;” Rom. 8:6; Rev. 13:15; spiritual minds / lives) of just men made perfect, whom are the deceased Christian martyrs, in Christ Jesus (Mar. 6:20; Act. 7:52,59, 12:2, 24:15; Jam. 5:6; Rev. 16:6 KJB) that even still now sleep in the grave, having been (while alive) perfected in their minds (characters; Eph. 4:15 KJB), and only await their immortal glorified bodies at the resurrection at the second advent of Jesus,
Mark 6:20 KJB - For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
Acts 7:52 KJB - Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:59 KJB - And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 12:2 KJB - And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Acts 24:15 KJB - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
James 5:6 KJB - Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
Revelation 16:6 KJB - For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
to Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living Father, and who is the mediator of the new covenant,
to the blood of sprinkling (Christ Jesus’ shed blood; Act. 20:28; Rom. 3:25, 5:9; 1 Cor. 10:16, 11:25,27; Eph. 1:7, 2:13; Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:12,14, 10:19,29, 13:12,20; 1 Pet. 1:2,19; 1 Jhn. 5:6; Rev. 1:5, 5:9, 7:14, 12:11 KJB; &c.), that speaketh better things than that of Abel (the old testament martyr for the sake of Jesus Christ).
Paul, in Heb. 12:23 KJB is not speaking of immortalized men-shades existing in heaven, but of those amongst mankind that hazarded their lives for Jesus Christ (Act. 15:26 KJB) and died as martyrs, having been made perfect by the Holy Ghost in their life & death, as witnesses & testifiers, to Jesus Christ, and now (as then) await their resurrection in Christ Jesus, who is to come back for them and raise them up & take them back to heaven along with all those who are living in Christ Jesus at that time (Jhn. 14:2-3; 1 Thes. 4:13-18 KJB).
They learned from God, as Jesus did, and followed Him in example, even unto death, being perfected in their chracter & faith (Eph. 4:13,15; 1 Thes. 3:10; Jam. 2:22; 1 Jhn. 2:5, 4:12 KJB):
Hebrews 5:8 KJB - Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 KJB - And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Psalms 48:14 KJB - For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.
Philippians 2:8 KJB - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I hope that this was helpful to you.
I am aware of the chiastic and linguistic, and typological & antitypical framework of the entire scripture including Dan. & Rev., Gen. & Rev., &c.
Any may see those charts here:
(Left Hand column, Choose a Chart, there are several) - Single Page (Dual Sided) Charts - Prophecy Print Outs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
For greater indepth details, see also the following, pages 2-33 - The Seven Trumpets Of Revelation - God's Great Trump : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Several similar images are also placed here - Psalms 77vs13 Images : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
100% truth!
100% Error!
You are doing it again Advent! If I had a stick, you would be racked over the knuckles!
The imagery of “My Father’s house” in John 14 is far more profound than a mere building or physical location. It points to God’s eternal plan of dwelling with His people, heavenly pattern to be established on earth. Scripture repeatedly shows that God’s “house” is where His presence resides: on earth through the Temple (2 Samuel 7; Micah 4:1-2; Isaiah 66:1-2), in Christ’s body (John 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:3-5), and in the gathered believers, who are the spiritual dwelling place of God and Christ (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Corinthians 3:9; Revelation 3:12).
The “rooms” Jesus speaks of are not just physical spaces; they are symbolic of the prepared places where God and Christ will abide with His people. Like the rooms in the Temple reserved for priests, these spaces represent intimacy, service, and access to the Divine. When Jesus says, “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:3), He is preparing the ultimate place of fellowship, where humanity, through His sacrifice, can meet with God, akin to the mercy seat in the Temple.
Furthermore, His promise “I will come back” echoes the High Priest returning to bless the congregation on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 9:23; Hebrews 9:28). This is not merely about His earthly ministry but points to His future return to fully establish God’s Kingdom. The declaration “where I am” situates believers in Christ Himself, seated in authority on David’s throne on earth (2 Samuel 7:13-14; Isaiah 9:6-7; Luke 1:32), emphasizing that God’s dwelling is inseparable from the authority and presence of Christ.
In essence, John 14 reveals that God’s house is not simply a location; it is a living reality in which Christ and His people are united. It is a house prepared through sacrifice, inhabited by the faithful, and anchored in the promise of His return, a place where humanity and divinity meet in perfect fellowship. This vision calls believers to see beyond the temporal and to anchor their hope in the eternal reality of God dwelling with His people.
A place prepared!
I will come back!
But what will he bring?
New Jerusalem to be established on earth with all his saints = The events of Revelation 20!
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This text, in context, was already addressed in the previous post, here - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study
Here is the link again to my personal response to Jhn. 3; Enoch, Elijah, &c. from the scriptures (Pro. 18:13,17 KJB) - Hebrews 11 Enoch These All Died For Jehovah's Witnesses WTS JW : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Instead of retyping all of it, I am satisfied that any who desire to consider that reponse will read it. This is my final response to the topic, and I am continuing with Rev. 20:1-15 KJB. The phrases "And I saw", and "an angel" have already been covered, so it is now time to move onto another piece of the phrasing.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
These remarks, Advent, are superficial and fail entirely to address the substantial evidence demonstrating your error.
At present, you are unable to substantiate your "heaven-going" assumptions. Any evidence you have offered relies on forced, non-biblical notions and inferences that have no foundation in Scripture.
Points of error currently in your study.
- The concept of a “third advent” does not appear anywhere in Scripture. Christ and the saints remain on earth until Christ hands over the Kingdom to His Father.
- You have provided no evidence to support “heaven-going,” not even in the few cases where death is not explicitly recorded, yet Scripture makes clear that all die in Adam, including Christ.
- Your lack of understanding of the political symbolism is not an error but a significant flaw in your study, one that will become increasingly evident as you progress.
Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study
A hint of creedal language seems to be creeping in, Advent, this raises concern about your intentions. You have already twisted the story of Enoch and misrepresented the Lord’s work. Will you next misrepresent Jehovah God Himself? Time will tell, no doubt. The word "advent", in my usage, does...
www.christianityboard.com
Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study
A hint of creedal language seems to be creeping in, Advent, this raises concern about your intentions. You have already twisted the story of Enoch and misrepresented the Lord’s work. Will you next misrepresent Jehovah God Himself? Time will tell, no doubt. The word "advent", in my usage, does...
www.christianityboard.com
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
@Adventageous
I read your link to notes and was disappointed.
Advents comment:
The first problem with your line of reasoning: if we assume your position is correct, does that imply that what follows does not also apply to Enoch?
You have completely disrupted the writer’s argument and line of reasoning to insert your own teaching!
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Heb 11:13.
Your reasoning is flawed, Advent, because the writer’s argument is clear: “these all died,” and all—including Enoch—did not receive the promises.
Do you really think the writer would make an exception just for you to learn about “heaven going” in the midst of a passage and chapter that explicitly teaches that none have yet received what was promised?
This goes beyond simply altering the meaning of the text it is a complete distortion of its entire context.
The main purpose of the chapter is to show that all these faithful people died without receiving the promised reward, yet you have taken it upon yourself to alter the context, insisting that Enoch received the promise while everyone else remained dead!
Your distortion of the text must be addressed. I realize this interrupts the flow of the study, but if this is how you handle Hebrews 11, one has to wonder how anyone could trust your interpretation of Revelation 20.
And then you have the concluding verse which is the nail in the coffin of your heaven going belief.
Essentially, you would have to erase Enoch from this chapter entirely and supply a text explicitly stating that he never died and was taken into Heaven as an immortal long before Christ.
Your belief contradicts the entire context of the chapter.
I read your link to notes and was disappointed.
Advents comment:
The first problem with your line of reasoning: if we assume your position is correct, does that imply that what follows does not also apply to Enoch?
You have completely disrupted the writer’s argument and line of reasoning to insert your own teaching!
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Heb 11:13.
Your reasoning is flawed, Advent, because the writer’s argument is clear: “these all died,” and all—including Enoch—did not receive the promises.
Do you really think the writer would make an exception just for you to learn about “heaven going” in the midst of a passage and chapter that explicitly teaches that none have yet received what was promised?
This goes beyond simply altering the meaning of the text it is a complete distortion of its entire context.
The main purpose of the chapter is to show that all these faithful people died without receiving the promised reward, yet you have taken it upon yourself to alter the context, insisting that Enoch received the promise while everyone else remained dead!
Your distortion of the text must be addressed. I realize this interrupts the flow of the study, but if this is how you handle Hebrews 11, one has to wonder how anyone could trust your interpretation of Revelation 20.
And then you have the concluding verse which is the nail in the coffin of your heaven going belief.
Essentially, you would have to erase Enoch from this chapter entirely and supply a text explicitly stating that he never died and was taken into Heaven as an immortal long before Christ.
Your belief contradicts the entire context of the chapter.
In Rev. 20:1, the phrase, "come down from heaven" is full of meaning.
The words "come down", from koine Greek, G2597, "καταβαινοντα", "katabainonta" (V-PAP-ASM; Verb-Present-Active-Participle-Accusative-Singular-Masculine), from two koine Greek words, G2596, "κατά", "kata", meaning "down (in place or time ...) & G939, "βάσις", "basis", meaning "(to walk); a pace (“base”), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot."
The word "from", from koine Greek, G1537, "εκ", "ek" (prepositional), meaning "denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from out (of place, time or cause; literally or figurateively) ..."
The word "heaven", from koine Greek, G3772, "ουρανου", "ouranou" (N-GSM; Noun-Genative-Singular-Masculine), means "the sky, air, heaven (physical locations, 1st (earth's atmosphere where the fowl fly, Gen. 1:20), 2nd (the local Sol System where Sun, Moon and local 'stars' (local Sol-system "planets") exist (Gen. 1:14-16; 2 Kin. 23:5)) & 3rd heaven (the place / world, aka "paradise", where God the Father dwells, Mat. 6:9; Luk. 11:2, 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:2,4; Rev. 2:7), and also in a symbolical manner as used of earthly Canaan, or promised land (Rev. 12:1,3 KJB), and in other senses relating to persons in such location, or kingdom thereof (Mat. 25:1; Luk. 15:21, 20:4; Jhn. 3:27 KJB, &c.).
As shown previously, the phrase "an angel" (an messenger) in Rev. 20:1, refers to the descent of the Son (Jesus Christ, the Highest Messenger of the Father) - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study
Act_1:11;p ... this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
1Th_1:10;p And to wait for his Son from heaven ...
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
2Th_1:7;p ..., when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
Php_3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Isa. 24 & Rev. 20 parallels:
A simplified image - 1000 Years Millennium Here Or There : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
See also pg 543 - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
~
A thousand year period of time, beginning unto ending (more in detail later).
A thousand year period of time, beginning unto ending (more in detail later).
Isaiah | Revelation |
Isa. 24:1-23 | Rev. 19-22 |
World destroyed - Isa. 24:1-20 | World destroyed - Rev. 19:11-21; see also Rev. 16:18-21 |
“host of high ones” - Isa. 24:21 | “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan” - Rev. 20:1,2 |
“kings of the earth” on “the earth” - Isa. 24:21 | “the kings of the earth, and their armies” - Rev. 19:18,19 |
“prisoners are gathered in the pit” “shut up in the prison” - Isa. 24:22 | “the bottomless pit” “till” - Rev. 20:1,2,3 |
“after many days” “be visited.” - Isa. 24:22 | “a thousand years”, “till the thousand years should be fulfilled” - Rev. 20:2,3 |
“he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake” - Isa. 24:18 | “they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”, “... and there was found no place for them.”, “cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” - Rev. 20:9-10,11-15 |
“the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem” - Isa. 24:23 | “the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven” - Rev. 21:2 |
~
Please notice, that it is "the LORD" that comes down (but this is not the Father's Person / Being, but the Son, sent as Messenger of the Father's will) and punishes the host of high (exalted / proud) ones:
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
It is in obedience to His Father's will and timing (Act. 1:7 KJB), as well as in condescension to the earth, that the Son ('angel' - the Highest Messenger; and Captain of the hosts of Heaven) of the Father comes down to earth once more from Heaven. In heaven (3rd) is light (Rev. 21:25, 22:5 KJB) and joy, but once again, the Son leaves the side of the Father on the eternal throne, so that His purchased possession, His people that have been redeemed by His shed blood, should be gathered unto Him (Rev. 20:4,6 KJB), and that He may arrest the long 6000 years (6 'days' of evil works) history of Lucifer's rebellion (Rev. 12:12).
As in Dan. 4, this "watcher and an holy one" comes down in righteous judgment. Just as Nebuchadnezzar II (filled with the pride of Lucifer (Heylel)) was punished, so too, the Son comes down in the 2nd Advent and binds the devil, and taking away his earthly authority:
Dan_4:13;p I saw in the visions ... a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
Dan_4:23;p And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band ... till seven times pass over him;
The “watcher and an holy one” (Dan. 4:13,17,23 KJB) of scripture is the Son of God, who came from a “far country” (Isa. 13:5; Jer. 4:16; Mat. 25:14 KJB) which is the "end of heaven":
“holy one”: 2 Kin. 19:22; Job 6:10; Psa. 16:10, 71:22, 78:41, 89:18,19; Isa. 1:4, 5:19,24, 10:17,20, 12:6, 17:7, 29:29,23, 30;11,12,15, 31:1, 37:23, 40:25, 41:14,16,20, 43:3,14,15, 45:11, 47:4, 48:17, 49:7, 54:5, 55:5, 60:9,14; Jer. 50:29, 51:5; Eze. 39:7; Hos. 11:9; Hab. 1:12, 3:3; Mar. 1:24; Luk. 4:34; Act. 2:27, 3:14, 13:35; 1 Jhn. 2:20 KJB.
“watched”: Jer. 31:28-29; Dan. 9:14 KJB.
“watch”: Gen. 31:49; Job 14:16; Jer. 31:28, 44:27 KJB.
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Just so I understand your position: You are saying (or hold a position of) that no human beings (with the possible exception of Jesus) ever enter into the abode of the 3rd heaven? (If not, please clarify, thank you.)
I know of no scriptures which states that Jesus touches the earth at the 2nd advent / coming.
What I do read of Jesus' position at the second coming, is:
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God [the Father] bring with him [Jesus].
The question is, "bring" him / them where? From what I read in scripture:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Jesus returned to the Father's house (3rd Heaven) at the end of the 1st advent. The "place" being "prepare[d]" by Jesus is thus in one of those "many mansions" (unfallen worlds, large luxuriously filled places to dwell in) in the "Father's house" (which is the universe spread out as a "tent" to dwell in; Isa. 40:22 KJB). Jesus would receive the saints unto Himself in the 2nd advent, at which He remains "in the air", even "up" from the surface of the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
New Jerusalem does not come down to earth, until the 3rd advent, at the end of the 1000 years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
What of the "reward" that is "in heaven" for the redeemed?Mat_5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mat_6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat_19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
The "poor" won to the LORD, are the reward and eternal treasures. Everlasting friendships experienced. Jesus said, "follow me", and as an example in life, a righteous holy life of selflessness, He entered into the 3rd heaven, and in Jhn. 14, Jesus speaks again of the same life and path and result.
Mar_10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Luk_6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for 
for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk_18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
That is after Rev. 14's great anf final havest of the earth:
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
They go "up", into the "air" and are brought back (1 Thes. 4:14) to the Father's House (Jhn. 14) with Jesus. This is the context of the great wedding. Psa. 24, &c. show a giant triumphal train of redeemed peoples from the earth being taken back to the Father's house.
I would disagree, in that in several places in Rev. the Son (Jesus) is specifcally called "angel" (Rev. 8:3,5, 10:1,5,8-10, 12:7 "Michael" (the archangel), 20:1).
However, irrespective of that, my questions (for clarifying purposes) to you (ewq1938) are,
Do you believe that Jesus is ever called "angel" anywhere in scripture, and if so, where (specific texts)?
Do you acknowledge that most of Rev. (some 90+%) of it is citing OT/NT texts in various fashions, and antitypical parallels?
As for instance in post #28, here - Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study
Do you see any parallels in Rev. 10's description to the Exodus (OT) or to Daniel (little book) or to swearing (oath / promise) as in Ezekiel?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Okay
Yes we know the Lord's 2nd advent will be in the same manner as he departed.
Please expand on your meaning of "World destroyed"
These “proud ones” refer to the nations and military powers of this world. You are therefore dealing with political “heavens” and political “earth” the exalted ruling authorities (the “heavens”) and the masses they govern (the “earth”).
Once again Christ and the Saints are already in the Earth as this point.
The 3rd Heaven and Earth period concludes the 1000 years - where are you getting this idea of a 3rd literal heaven from?
Please identify who you believe Lucifer to be in the context of Rev 12:12?
You are running so many verses together that I doubt even you know what you are quoting.
This is a real mess, Advent!
You are using second-advent passages to argue for a third advent, which the text itself does not support. You then scatter references indiscriminately, making large and unfounded leaps in logic without first establishing their context or explaining their meaning.
It reads as though you are working from a concordance, copying and pasting verses (morphology and syntax) without any real concern for careful exegesis or for the readers who are left to untangle the confusion this creates.
I'm afraid you are wasting your time and everyone else's with this approach.
Can you make the posts more conversational?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
The reason you are encountering this problem is that you have introduced an entirely new “advent” that simply does not exist anywhere in the Word of God.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Update on error.
At present, you are unable to substantiate your "heaven-going" assumptions. Any evidence you have offered relies on forced, non-biblical notions and inferences that have no foundation in Scripture.
Points of error currently in your study.
At present, you are unable to substantiate your "heaven-going" assumptions. Any evidence you have offered relies on forced, non-biblical notions and inferences that have no foundation in Scripture.
Points of error currently in your study.
- The concept of a “third advent” does not appear anywhere in Scripture. Christ and the saints remain on earth until Christ hands over the Kingdom to His Father.
- You have provided no evidence to support “heaven-going,” not even in the few cases where death is not explicitly recorded, yet Scripture makes clear that all die in Adam, including Christ.
- Your lack of understanding of the political symbolism is not an error but a significant flaw in your study, one that will become increasingly evident as you progress.
- This invented 3rd advent which is nowhere mentioned in the Gospels or Epistles must mean you believe Jesus and the Saints are all in Heaven during the 1000-year reign and that Christ and Saints return at the end of the 1000 year period??? Again, no proof text has been supplied to support.
- Your reference to Revelation 14 is misunderstood. These events take place with Christ reigning from Jerusalem (Mount Zion). The gospel proclamation in the mid-heaven goes out to all nations, so it is unclear how Christ and the saints could be in heaven while proclaiming a message to the nations on the earth. In fact he is enthroned on Davids throne at this time! All 2nd advent events!
- The Marriage of the Lamb and the Supper take place post 2nd coming prior to Daniels image being smashed (2nd coming) and the nations being grind to powder.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
That's easy to answer:
... NO... to the first question - because Jesus came to earth in Abraham's days and converse with Abraham, per Genesis 18 and John 8:56-58. Lord Jesus was also the Melchizedek of Genesis that met Abraham, as revealed in Hebrews 7.
NO... to all your 3rd Heaven references, because that was Apostle Paul who was caught up to the 3rd Heaven, which means the 3rd Heavenly-earth age, i.e., God's future Eternity. It is not about a 3rd LEVEL in Heaven like many think. There is ONLY 2 dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly dimension we live in, and the Heavenly dimension where God and the angels dwell, to include where the abode of hell is. It's the pagans that believe in multiple levels in Heaven.
We are told when Jesus ascended from earth to Heaven per the Book of Acts, that He sat down on the right hand of The Father's Throne, and understanding that ought to be good enough without creating multiple levels in Heaven.
Yes, as written for His future 2nd coming, His return to earth.
NOPE... that is not what John 14 nor 1 Thess.4 teaches. That is man's doctrine per a false Pre-trib Rapture theory, which is not Biblical. Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the saints that are asleep with Him back to earth when He comes at the 2nd coming. At that same time, the saints still alive are "caught up" to Jesus and those saints He brings with Him, ON HIS WAY WITH THEM ALL TO JERUSALEM, ON EARTH, upon the Mount of Olives, per Zechariah 14. That Scripture says Jesus' feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives, on earth, which is where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. Thus Zechariah 14 continues the Bible teaching 1 Thess.4 leaves off to show exactly 'where' Jesus will descend from Heaven to with all His saints.
Adding adjectives like "sin-polluted earth" will not change what the Bible Scripture states about Jesus' feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives on the future day of His 2nd coming, bringing His faithful saints with Him to that spot on this earth. God's consuming fire is going to do a cleansing of man's works off this earth on that day, which is what Peter was pointing to in 2 Peter 3:10-13.
Those who refer to the "many mansions" in the "Father's house" as being in Heaven off the earth show their Biblical illiteracy of Ezekiel 40 through Ezekiel 47.
The Father's house, and the many mansions of John 14, represent the chambers of the priests described in the future sanctuary which Ezekiel was given to describe that will manifest ON EARTH when Jesus returns.
Because Revelation 21 declares in God's future new heavens and new earth timing there will be no more temple, just the declared existence of that future Millennial sanctuary in Ezekiel 40 through 47, and in other Bible Scripture like Zechariah 6 and Daniel 8 & 9, is plenty enough proof that the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Jesus will be a literal period that begins on the day of His future 2nd coming.
The Rev.22:14-15 Scripture shows the wicked still existing outside the gates of the holy city, while Christ's saints have access to the Tree of Life inside the gates. Per Ezekiel 47, God's River of the Waters of Life of Genesis 2, and the Tree of Life, is to return to this earth for Christ's future Millennial reign, with... the future sanctuary (or Millennial temple). We know this because the coming of God's new heavens and a new earth will not include the existence of the wicked. The last event that will occur just before the bringing of the new heavens and a new earth will be the wicked, hell, and the concept of death, all cast into the "lake of fire", called the "second death".
NOPE... that is not... what those Bible Scriptures reveal. Rev.21 reveals the new heavens and new earth timing only will occur after... the "thousand years" period.
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Not one of those is Jesus.
None I can think of.
No.
No.
- Jul 11, 2015
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No. All I said was when NJ comes down, heaven is empty and had been a long time.
He is on Mt Zion with the 144k, plus many believe his feet touch the Mt of Olives. The very idea of a second coming means he comes to the ground as he did in the first incarnation plus he said he would return as he left, so he was on the Earth and rose up, sop he will descend and land upon the Earth.
He does not say when he returns that he is leaving again. It is clear he and everyone will be on Earth.
There is no third advent and NJ does not come down "at" the end of the Mill, but an unknown amount of time after...after the little season, battle at OJ, casting of satan in LOF, GWTJ/LOF for the wicked and then the heavens and Earth are burned and only after all those will there be a NHNE and THEN Nj comes down and not a mention of Jesus or people in it because they are all on the Earth and will have been second BEFORE the Mill.
I stopped there because there's too many more corrections to do and this is long enough.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No, not at all, but time is indeed a created illusion--actually the dividing of eternity into increments of revelation from God, from which comes darkness and the shadow of turning. Thus, the dividing of the light from the darkness--the mystery and His purpose revealed, finished, as it is written.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
My word, what has this site come to? Heaven-going doctrines and now Jesus supposedly speaking to Abraham, an approach that manages to dismantle John 8 in a single sentence.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
I read this and couldn’t help but picture you cruising around in a Ford Bedford van smoking weed, with dice hanging from the mirror listening to The Doors.
I guess that means you’re selective about what you take as literal and what you treat as figurative, then?
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