"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[GodsGrace]

@keithr

part 4 of 4


New Heart English Bible
Watch out for yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood.

Webster's Bible Translation
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Weymouth New Testament
"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
Therefore keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of the Lord and of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

World English Bible
Take heed, therefore, to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the Assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Berean Literal Bible
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has set you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with the own blood.

Young's Literal Translation
'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Smith's Literal Translation
Attend therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit set you inspectors, to feed the church of God, which he acquired by his own blood.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Take care of yourselves and of the entire flock, over which the Holy Spirit has stationed you as Bishops to rule the Church of God, which he has purchased by his own blood.

New American Bible
Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.

New Revised Standard Version
Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
Take heed therefore to yourselves and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, to feed the church of Christ which he has purchased with his blood.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Pay attention to yourselves therefore, and to the whole flock in which The Spirit of Holiness has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the Church of God which he has purchased with his blood.”
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
Therefore, take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, that you be shepherds to the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

Godbey New Testament
Take heed to yourselves, and all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost has placed you shepherds, to shepherdise the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.

Haweis New Testament
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed as shepherds the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.

Mace New Testament
be therefore upon your guard to secure your selves, and the whole flock over which the holy spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

Weymouth New Testament
"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood.

Worrell New Testament
Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit appointed you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

Worsley New Testament
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the holy Spirit hath appointed you bishops, to feed the church of God, which He purchased with his own blood.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just to be clear
Are you saying your council of Trent did not state you are justified by faith, baptism AND obeying the TC?

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace – NOT by works. The Catholic Church sees Jesus as not only a Savior to be believed in – but also a Lawgiver to be obeyed.

Any ambiguous language from Trent was clarified in the Joint Declaration of Faith between Lutherans and Catholics:

“We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will, which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also” (JD 31).

Justification comes by faith – but not by faith alone. We don’t read anywhere in Scripture that our righteousness comes from faith alone – just that it comes from faith apart from works (Rom. 3:28). It was Martin Luther who added the word “alone” – not Paul. This is why Paul says in Phil. 2:12 to, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
He's talking about the obedience of faith - not just the “belief” part, which includes the Commandments.

Again – that’s why James wrote that we are justified by what we DO and NOT by faith alone (James 2:24). Anyway - I think we’ve gone way off-topic here . . .

 

[saved by grace 101]

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace – NOT by works. The Catholic Church sees Jesus as not only a Savior to be believed in – but also a Lawgiver to be obeyed.

Any ambiguous language from Trent was clarified in the Joint Declaration of Faith between Lutherans and Catholics:

“We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will, which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also” (JD 31).

Justification comes by faith – but not by faith alone. We don’t read anywhere in Scripture that our righteousness comes from faith alone – just that it comes from faith apart from works (Rom. 3:28). It was Martin Luther who added the word “alone” – not Paul. This is why Paul says in Phil. 2:12 to, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
He's talking about the obedience of faith - not just the “belief” part, which includes the Commandments.

Again – that’s why James wrote that we are justified by what we DO and NOT by faith alone (James 2:24). Anyway - I think we’ve gone way off-topic here . . .

So a believer maintains their justification by obeying the law Paul termed the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation?
Paul said we die to the law in order to bear fruit for God. He gave an example of one of the TC concerning this. I don't see how you can die to the law if you believe your continued justification hinges on obeying it, do you?

 

[GodsGrace]

So a believer maintains their justification by obeying the law Paul termed the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation?
Paul said we die to the law in order to bear fruit for God. He gave an example of one of the TC concerning this. I don't see how you can die to the law if you believe your continued justification hinges on obeying it, do you?

saved...
You're getting THE LAW conflated with obedience to God.

We are no longer under THE LAW...

But Paul NEVER taught that we are not to obey God.

But it is through the obedience OF FAITH.

Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

Throughout the NT we are told to obey God.

Matthew 7:21 Jesus said:
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[saved by grace 101]

saved...
You're getting THE LAW conflated with obedience to God.

We are no longer under THE LAW...

But Paul NEVER taught that we are not to obey God.

But it is through the obedience OF FAITH.

Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

Throughout the NT we are told to obey God.

Matthew 7:21 Jesus said:
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Im talking to a catholic about catholic belief
Of course Paul didn't tell us not to obey God.
He said if we die to living under the law sin shall no longer be our master.
You cannot die to being under the law/justification of obeying it, if you believe your continued justification hinges on obeying it

 

[GodsGrace]

Im talking to a catholic about catholic belief
Of course Paul didn't tell us not to obey God.
He said if we die to living under the law sin shall no longer be our master.
You cannot die to being under the law/justification of obeying it, if you believe your continued justification hinges on obeying it

You may be talking to a Catholic
But the NT states that we are to obey God.....
Continued justification IS biblical UNLESS you believe you could live however you want to and still be saved.

Catholics call this ongoing justification,,,,
Protestants call this sanctification.

So let's say you become saved...
you are now JUSTIFIED.
No works involved...you repent, God declares you saved.

Now you're on your way to SANCTIFICATION.

BUT
What if you decide to return to a life of sin?
Will you still be sanctified?

And if you're no longer sanctified,
will you still be justified?

 

[saved by grace 101]

You may be talking to a Catholic
But the NT states that we are to obey God.....
Continued justification IS biblical UNLESS you believe you could live however you want to and still be saved.

Catholics call this ongoing justification,,,,
Protestants call this sanctification.

So let's say you become saved...
you are now JUSTIFIED.
No works involved...you repent, God declares you saved.

Now you're on your way to SANCTIFICATION.

BUT
What if you decide to return to a life of sin?
Will you still be sanctified?

And if you're no longer sanctified,
will you still be justified?

I dont wish to derail this thread, if you want to discuss it start a thread on the subject, tell me which section you are going to put it in and I will join you there

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont wish to derail this thread, if you want to discuss it start a thread on the subject, tell me which section you are going to put it in and I will join you there

Did a moderator tell you you're derailing this thread?
Did the OP request that you stop speaking to a member?

However, I will leave you to @BreadOfLife ,,,,,

Just keep in mind that what he's stated so far is ALSO Protestant doctrine.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Did a moderator tell you you're derailing this thread?
Did the OP request that you stop speaking to a member?

However, I will leave you to @BreadOfLife ,,,,,

Just keep in mind that what he's stated so far is ALSO Protestant doctrine.

It is protestant doctrine that you are saved un der a righteousness of faith in Christ, but then you change once saved to a righteousness of obeying the law? You go to the wrong churches!

 

[GodsGrace]

It is protestant doctrine that you are saved un der a righteousness of faith in Christ, but then you change once saved to a righteousness of obeying the law? You go to the wrong churches!

I don't go to a church right now.
And I haven't gone to only one church.
Does that make me more credible??

Let's see:

You are getting THE LAW mixed up with obeying God.
Jesus left us with COMMANDMENTS,,,,we are to follow those commandments.

The Moral Law must be followed too.
That would be the Ten Commandments.

Jesus made the Ten Commandments a llittle more difficult..
but also a little more easy.

Can YOU explain why?

Everything Jesus said..WE MUST DO.
DO being the key word.

Some Christians believe that all we need is FAITH...


No sir. This is not correct.
Because faith ALONE is portrayed as negative in the NT

James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


And Paul agrees with James (as he should).

Paul said that without LOVE we are like a clanging bell.

The moment we add something to FAITH....
it is no longer FAITH ALONE.

 

[saved by grace 101]

The Moral Law MUST be followed too.
That would be the Ten Commandments.

OK, lets take the TC:
You must not put anything before God in your life
You must not erect any graven image in your mind
You must not look at a woman with lust in your eye(unless she is your spouse)
You must not dwell on any impure thought
You must not tell any even little fib about another
You must not desire anything of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household
Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty befor them
As your continued justificatiion hinges on obeying those commands, heaven or hell hinges on you obeying them. How confident are you of going to Heaven?

 

[saved by grace 101]

Jesus left us with COMMANDMENTS,,,,we are to follow those commandments.

The Moral Law must be followed too.
That would be the Ten Commandments.

And how many of Jesus commands in the gospels do you even try and follow?
I can put a sample list up if you like

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, lets take the TC:
You must not put anything before God in your life
You must not erect any graven image in your mind
You must not look at a woman with lust in your eye(unless she is your spouse)
You must not dwell on any impure thought
You must not tell any even little fib about another
You must not desire anything of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household
Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty befor them
As your continued justificatiion hinges on obeying those commands, heaven or hell hinges on you obeying them. How confident are you of going to Heaven?

I'm confident while at the foot of the cross.

So do you mean that YOU do NOT obey the 10 Commandments??

 

[GodsGrace]

And how many of Jesus commands in the gospels do you even try and follow?
I can put a sample list up if you like

All of them,
of course.

 

[saved by grace 101]

All of them,
of course.

Would lying be obeying Jesus?

 

[saved by grace 101]

All of them,
of course.

So if I asked you to lend me some money, you would gladly give it without ever expectiing anything back?
You wouldn't invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven?
If anyone stole something of yours you would gladly give them more that what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
If you are persecuted you leap for joy?
Should I go on?

 

[GodsGrace]

So if I asked you to lend me some money, you would gladly give it without ever expectiing anything back?
You wouldn't invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven?
If anyone stole something of yours you would gladly give them more that what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
If you are persecuted you leap for joy?
Should I go on?

Please be serious saved.

WHAT are you talking about?

Do you think I'm Jesus??
Only Jesus was good.

Do YOU not obey the 10 Commandments??

Do you just live as you want to live?
Why are you driving this discussion off course??

 

[GodsGrace]

Would lying be obeying Jesus?

??

Do YOU tell persons that it's OK not to obey the Commandments??

 

[saved by grace 101]

Please be serious saved.

WHAT are you talking about?

Do you think I'm Jesus??
Only Jesus was good.

Do YOU not obey the 10 Commandments??

Do you just live as you want to live?
Why are you driving this discussion off course??

Im not, Im responding to what you wrote, you said we must obey Jesus commands, I asked you how many you even tried to follow, you said all of them. So I put a sample list up for your attention.
I notice you havent responded to the examples of obeying the TC I also put before you.
Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious of his day who did not practice what they preached/insisted of others.

 

[saved by grace 101]

??

Do YOU tell persons that it's OK not to obey the Commandments??

I will happily discuss that ONCE I get responses to my posts to you, and they are solely based on what you posted to me