"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[XtraPercept]

Precious friend, we have "beared with", prayed, and are still for them, Because "if trusting in
Another Jesus (2Co 11:4 AV) is an Eternal Problem", then what would be our excuse for not
trying to share God's Truth With them? - ie: God's Books Are Opened?:

You produce nicely formatted posts consistently.

You carefully italicize, bolden, and even underline particular words for a variety of emphases.

And yet you still can't tell me that God is not His Son because you believe His Son is Him.

You do not understand the nature of this marvelous unity of Father and Son because your god is "triune" and apt to burn people forever.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Precious friend, we have "beared with", prayed, and are still for them, Because "if trusting in
Another Jesus (2Co 11:4 AV) is an Eternal Problem", then what would be our excuse for not
trying to share God's Truth With them? - ie: God's Books Are Opened?:

This post feels rather disjointed, Grace. It may be clear in your own mind, but to me it lacks coherence and a clear line of thought. I'm reminded of the need to "renovate" ones mind, which really means starting with an empty vessel and slowly adding truth. Not an easy task but needful if you ever want to know the original Gospel.

 

[saved by grace 101]

This is my testimony, that I am scarred from years in stupidity. I was functionally dissociative and mentally shattered until only very recently, having overcome drugs, alcohol, trauma, abuse, and various sufferings over the course of my life. I sought God with a desperation I rarely encounter in another. And I love every bit of affliction I endured for where it has brought me today.

I hope I may help someone here. I mean no offense. I do not lie.

Yours is probably the best post written in this thread, and the most important. It far transcends the debate. God bless

 

[XtraPercept]

Yours is probably the best post written in this thread, and the most important. It far transcends the debate. God bless

Thank you for the kind words, but all praise, all glory, and all honor belong exclusively to the Father. I do not even exist without Him, as it is His gift of faith which mended my shattered mind while it was full of death and lies.

All I did was believe Him, and He kept His Word.

 

[keithr]

There are two replies that will satisfy your question.

1. When Jesus was on earth,,,He was also a man.

No, he was only a man. Philippians 2:7-8

WEB

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

ISV

(7) Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,​

(8) and lived in all humility, death on a cross obeying.​

Hebrews 2:17 NET

(17) Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.​

The Son always was with God as God's Word.
Just as John states in John 1:1
The Word or Logos of God cannot be separated from Him....The logos was always with God.

Jesus was seperated from God when he bore mankind's sins on the cross and died - Mark 15:34 ISV

(34) At three o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, eloi, lema sabachthani?" , which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"​

('forsaken' is translated from the Greek word egkataleipo meaning to abandon, desert, to leave behind.)

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD...

Or as the REB translates it, "The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was". The note in the UASV says, 'John is not saying that "the Word" was God the Father'. See this post in which I wrote:

So if the word is the word proclaimed by Jesus during his ministry, what does “the word was with [pros] God, and the word was God” mean? There are numerous examples of the Greek word pros in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), e.g. Zechariah 1:1 - “In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word [logos] of the LORD unto [pros] Zechariah, … saying,”. This is saying that the word of God was with Zechariah, and Zechariah proclaimed that word. Similarly in John 1:1 it means that the word of God was with God, and it was God Himself expressing the word. It then says that the word was God. Verse 18 says, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. It is Jesus that expressed and proclaimed the Father; the Father was the word that was proclaimed to the world – the word was God. Verse 18 is the summary of John’s prologue, summing up what he introduced in verse 1. The word proclaimed in the ministry of Jesus was the revelation of God, the Father, Himself – God expressing and revealing Himself through Jesus.​

These verses clearly state that Jesus is God.

I don't think so!

Titus 2:9-10
9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

God is our savior.

Yes, God is our saviour:

Hosea 13:4 WEB

(4) “Yet I am Yahweh your God from the land of Egypt; and you shall acknowledge no god but me, and besides me there is no savior.​

And Paul also teaches that:

1 Timothy 1:1 WEB

(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ our hope;​

He also points out that our hope is in Jesus:

2 Timothy 1:8-10 WEB

(8) Therefore don’t be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but endure hardship for the Good News according to the power of God,​

(9) who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,​

(10) but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News.​

Just as God is the creator, yet He chose to have His only-begotten Son perform the creation according to God's design, likewise He chose that His Son should be our redeemer and saviour:

Colossians 1:12-20 WEB

(12) giving thanks to the Father, who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;​

(13) who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love;​

(14) in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins;​

(15) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.​

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

(17) He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.​

(18) He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

(19) For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him;​

(20) and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.​

As John also confirms, 1 John 4:14 WEB

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus is both Lord and God. And He did not correct Thomas.

Yes, Jesus is a god (a mighty, supernatural ruler), but he is not the one and only true almighty God, our Father in heaven, YHVH. Even after his resurrection, God is still Jesus' god:

Revelation 1 WEB

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,​

(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by his blood;​

(6) and he made us to be a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

Hebrews 1:8
8But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God,

The Son is referred to as God.

Yes, even God YHVH refers to His Son as a god, but that doesn't mean that Jesus is God YHVH.

Titus 2:13
13Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Jesus is our great God and Savior.

The UASV note for this verse says:

Or, based on grammar and context, an alternative reading could be, of the great God and our Savior.​

As indeed the KJV translates it:

(13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;​

Note that Paul is here talking about the appearing of the glory of God and Jesus, he is not saying that God is Jesus. He is referring to,
Matthew 16:27 WEB

(27) For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.​

2 Peter 1:1
1Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Jesus is our God and Savior.

Similar ambiguous translation again. The KJV has:

(1) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:​

and the footnote says the Greek has just "our God and Saviour", i.e. it omits the "Jesus Christ".

and the UASV note says:

Or, based on grammar and context, an alternative reading could be, of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ.​

Again, Peter is talking about the "righteousness" of God and/or Jesus, it is not saying that God is Jesus. That's not what Peter believed; he wrote, 1 Peter 1:3 WEB

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

(To be continued.)

 

[keithr]

(Continuing...)

John 1:18
18No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

The only God...who is at the right side of the Father.....(God is at the right hand of God).

You don't say what translation you're quoting from, but the KJV has:

(18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

Romans 9.5
5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all,

Jesus is God over everything.

Translation problem again! Other translations:

KJV:

(5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

UASV:

(5) to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.​

ISV:

(5) To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.​

GNB:

(5) they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.​

1 John 5:20
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Jesus is the true God.

1 John 5:19-20 WEB

(19) We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.​

(20) We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.​

The "true God" is referring to God, not Jesus. Compare with John 17:3 when Jesus said (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

Acts 20:28
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

God has blood?
God Father has no blood.
God Son has blood which was shed for believers.

No, God does not have blood - He is a spirit (John 4:24) and not a man (Numbers 23:19). It is obviously referring to Jesus' blood.

Acts 20:28 UASV

(28) Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the congregation of God, which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.​

GNB

(28) So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son.​

 

[BreadOfLife]

In revelation JESUS says I AM THE FIRST and THE LAST . aint that something .
Because . HE IS THE WORD OF GOD and THE WORD was with GOD in the beginning and the Word was God .

I couldn't agree more. This is a basic belief of Christianity.

Its simple if we just read the bible without all these molestations of men gone wrong .

This statement is based on ignorance . . .

How did all of the Christians for the first 300 years of the Church learn about Christ?
Did they ALL have copies of the Bible? How about ALL of the Christians who died before John wrote his Gospel and Revelation??

There was NO official Canon of Scripture until 382 AD. People didn't have copies of the Bible until the 16 century when the printing press was invented. MOST of them couldn't read anyway.

This idea that ALL we have to do is read the Bible is complete anti-Biblical nonsense.
Jesus left us with a Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16) to guide - NOT a Book . . .

 

[amigo de christo]

I couldn't agree more. This is a basic belief of Christianity.

This statement is based on ignorance . . .

How did all of the Christians for the first 300 years of the Church learn about Christ?
Did they ALL have copies of the Bible? How about ALL of the Christians who died before John wrote his Gospel and Revelation??

There was NO official Canon of Scripture until 382 AD. People didn't have copies of the Bible until the 16 century when the printing press was invented. MOST of them couldn't read anyway.

This idea that ALL we have to do is read the Bible is complete anti-Biblical nonsense.
Jesus left us with a Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16) to guide - NOT a Book . . .

here we go again . like a dolly parton song .
GET in that bible and stop making excuses .

 

[BreadOfLife]

here we go again . like a dolly parton song .
GET in that bible and stop making excuses .

Complete dodge . . .

How 'bout answering some of the questions I asked?
Does it make you uncomfortable to defend your position?

 

[amigo de christo]

Complete dodge . . .

How 'bout answering some of the questions I asked?
Does it make you uncomfortable to defend your position?

Of course its a complete dodge . if i threw the dung of men at you , WOULD YOU NOT try and dodge it and not have
allowed yourself to be hit by it .
YOU make every excuse to find ways around having to read that bible FOR YOUR OWN self .
That is why you have been decieved . and you nor the RCC is alone in that .
Take a good long peek at the twin daughters of the RCC
known as narcina prostetinlian and lieberlina . Who both n ow do the work of their mother the harlot .
You wanna continue in that , well that is on you . Not that i desired or desire that for you cause i know the end of it .
But men love to sit under men who teach whatever fancies their ear .
SHEEP sit under only men who preach that which agrees to BIBLCAL DOCTRINE
and THEY ACTUALLY DO and would have enjoyed reading that bible daily for themselves .
Hurry , while we still have the time to do so .
OPEN bible , begin reading it again and anew and afresh for yourself . If not prepare to remain trapped in the bondage
of very wise and highly intellecteual spinners of what little truth they do sell .

 

[Button]

Something that came to me that blew my socks off:

"Before Abraham Was, I AM" (Jn.8:58)

I had never understood this but suddenly tonight I believe the meaning came to me. Why did Jesus say I AM? Why didn't he just say I was? I think the answer is that God inhabits eternity. He cannot say I was, or I will be as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He never changes. God is outside time!

Before anything created was created, God was there.
I agree with the statement Jesus made as,I Am, was a reminder to those to whom he spoke of Moses and his meeting with God.
God told him that when Pharaoh asks who sent Moses to him,tell Pharaoh, I am sent me.

I think that's a perfect encapsulation. I Am.
I Am God. I Am Creator.

I Am is designation of beingness.
I Am,I exist.

We are because I Am.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course its a complete dodge . if i threw the dung of men at you , WOULD YOU NOT try and dodge it and not have
allowed yourself to be hit by it .

You dodged my questions because you CAN’T answer them. They’re historically and logically factual – and that makes YOUR position illogical and untenable.

Answer the questions . . .

YOU make every excuse to find ways around having to read that bible FOR YOUR OWN self .
That is why you have been decieved . and you nor the RCC is alone in that .
Take a good long peek at the twin daughters of the RCC
known as narcina prostetinlian and lieberlina . Who both n ow do the work of their mother the harlot .
You wanna continue in that , well that is on you . Not that i desired or desire that for you cause i know the end of it .

I don’t make ANY excuses. I read the Bible and recommend that for everyone.

The danger of YOUR self-interpretations is that you invent your own doctrines. This is why Peter warns his readers:
2 Pet. 1:20
“…knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

This is why there are literally thousands of denominations – ALL teaching different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of their founders. And there are millions of “Lone Rangers” like yourself . . .

But men love to sit under men who teach whatever fancies their ear .
SHEEP sit under only men who preach that which agrees to BIBLCAL DOCTRINE
and THEY ACTUALLY DO and would have enjoyed reading that bible daily for themselves .
Hurry , while we still have the time to do so .
OPEN bible , begin reading it again and anew and afresh for yourself . If not prepare to remain trapped in the bondage
of very wise and highly intellecteual spinners of what little truth they do sell .

What complete hypocrisy.
You claim that you don’t “sit under men” – but EVERY single post of yours proves that you DO . . .

You are a Sola Scripturist. Can you show me WHERE that taught is in the Bible? WHERE do you see Paul or Peter or ANY other evangelist teaching this fallacy?

 

[amigo de christo]

You dodged my questions because you CAN’T answer them. They’re historically and logically factual – and that makes YOUR position illogical and untenable.

Answer the questions . . .

I don’t make ANY excuses. I read the Bible and recommend that for everyone.

The danger of YOUR self-interpretations is that you invent your own doctrines. This is why Peter warns his readers:
2 Pet. 1:20
“…knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

This is why there are literally thousands of denominations – ALL teaching different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of their founders. And there are millions of “Lone Rangers” like yourself . . .

What complete hypocrisy.
You claim that you don’t “sit under men” – but EVERY single post of yours proves that you DO . . .

You are a Sola Scripturist. Can you show me WHERE that taught is in the Bible? WHERE do you see Paul or Peter or ANY other evangelist teaching this fallacy?

You have not fooled me my friend but only thine own self .
you read it through the lens of Your RCC
just like many others read it through the lens of ................many denominations of men .
Time we read it for our own selves .
A jw will tell ya he or she reads the bible
A mormon says they have done the same
A calvnists says they do the same
And so on that list does grow .
WANNA know what i notice they all have in common
ITS THUS sayeth my , FILL IN the blan k, and they all got errors too .
OH YEAH its bible time in the house .
And now what do i notice in all those houses
AS well as even in the false religoins
THEY all coming to faith more and more in this ecumenical god of a harlot .
Which preaches a unviersal love of the world
that all the decieved beleive to be the LOVE of GOD .
Talk about a powerful delusion . TEHY found out what all false religons had in common
and preached that junk . people bought it too .
The RCC been fleeing for years as have many in that land known as protestant .
TIME to put a bible into the hand of this people and get them the heck outta anything ecumenical and fast .

 

[saved by grace 101]

Jesus left us with a Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16) to guide - NOT a Book . . .

Well your church states believers are justified by faith, baptism and obeying the Ten Commandments.
The reason Paul keeps stressing you cannot be justified by obeying the law is mainly because of the Ten Commandments.
So, who should we believe, your church or the book?

 

[XtraPercept]

So, who should we believe, your church or the book?

Believe the testimony of the one who bears the fruits of the Spirit.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Believe the testimony of the one who bears the fruits of the Spirit.

Do you mean Paul?
Only in my question it was a denomination or what is written in the bible, not an individual

 

[XtraPercept]

Do you mean Paul?
Only in my question it was a denomination or what is written in the bible, not an individual

Why not an individual? Is not Scripture a witness of the behaviors we can expect to be exhibited by one who expresses truth with understanding from a sincere love?

God calls us to reason with Him. His truth is divine and certain and traceable and logical and elegant and eloquent, hence His unequivocal titular reference as the Word.

This is not bombast, the meaning is clear and concise, the language is unambiguous and plain albeit lofty but accessible by simplest effort of definition lookup.

There is a reason people are beginning to believe a pattern machine could possibly "think."

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have not fooled me my friend but only thine own self .

Soooo, is it that you can’t answer my questions. Were they too confusing?
Ill list them again. Stopp running and answer the questions:

- How did all of the Christians for the first 300 years of the Church learn about Christ?

- Did they ALL have copies of the Bible?

- How about ALL of the Christians who died before John wrote his Gospel and Revelation??
- How about the 80% or so who couldn’t even read?

- What about the fact that that virtually NOBODY owned Bibles until the invention of the printing press in the 16th century?

Are you even aware that those Christians used to consider Books like The Protoevangelium, The Shepherd of Heermas, The Gospel of Peter, etc. a Scripture? They were read aloud from pulpits for hundreds of years but were NOT included in the Canon. Are those people in Hell?

It was the CHURCH who taught and led these people to faith . . .

you read it through the lens of Your RCC
just like many others read it through the lens of ................many denominations of men .
Time we read it for our own selves .
A jw will tell ya he or she reads the bible
A mormon says they have done the same
A calvnists says they do the same
And so on that list does grow .

The Bible came out of the Church – the Church didn’t come out of the Bible.
It is the Church who is the guardian of Scripture.

Private interpretation had led to the confusion that is Protestantism – of which YOU are a part.
I know you claim you’re not – but you're a textbook example . . .

WANNA know what i notice they all have in common
ITS THUS sayeth my , FILL IN the blan k, and they all got errors too .
OH YEAH its bible time in the house .
And now what do i notice in all those houses
AS well as even in the false religoins
THEY all coming to faith more and more in this ecumenical god of a harlot .
Which preaches a unviersal love of the world
that all the decieved beleive to be the LOVE of GOD .
Talk about a powerful delusion . TEHY found out what all false religons had in common
and preached that junk . people bought it too .

Here's a name for that blank . . .
“amigo de Christo”

Just another Lone Ranger in a field of millions inventing their own doctrines . . .

The RCC been fleeing for years as have many in that land known as protestant .

Said the Protestant . . .

TIME to put a bible into the hand of this people and get them the heck outta anything ecumenical and fast .

Ummm, it's been in the hands of people like YOU who pervert the truth . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well your church states believers are justified by faith, baptism and obeying the Ten Commandments.
The reason Paul keeps stressing you cannot be justified by obeying the law is mainly because of the Ten Commandments.
So, who should we believe, your church or the book?

First of all – that’s NOT completely true.
It’s faith and Baptism. So, BOTH the Church (Cat. 1987) and the Book (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) say this.

Secondly - what is “Faith”? Is it simply believing – or does it include surrender and obedience? Can you be saved by simply believing? The Bible tells us that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19). Are they saved?

 

[saved by grace 101]

First of all – that’s NOT completely true.
It’s faith and Baptism. So, BOTH the Church (Cat. 1987) and the Book (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) say this.

Secondly - what is “Faith”? Is it simply believing – or does it include surrender and obedience? Can you be saved by simply believing? The Bible tells us that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19). Are they saved?

Just to be clear
Are you saying your council of Trent did not state you are justified by faith, baptism AND obeying the TC?