Why Cold-Case Skills Can Help You Examine Christianity

[Riven]

The dead don’t come back to life on their own. That leaves supernatural.

But that doesn't happen.

All possibilities have to be considered.

No, they don't.

Yes. All possibilities have to be considered and evaluated.

How do you evaluate a supernatural claim to determine if it's true or false?

That’s evidence.

It isn't. It's a claim that something happened, but it's not evidence that something actually did happen. This distinction is important.

 

[Matthias]

But that doesn't happen.

Multiple accounts of it having happened are recorded in the Bible.* These are supernatural events.

No, they don't.

They do if we’re serious about investigating the truth of a matter.

How do you evaluate a supernatural claim to determine if it's true or false?

By examining the evidence.

It isn't.

I had it happen in court cases many times. I never lost a case I testified in and my testimony about events that happened was always a major factor in the final decisions reached by judges and juries.

It's a claim that something happened, but it's not evidence that something actually did happen.

Anything an eyewitness has to say is evidence that something happened.

This distinction is important.

It’s nothing more than avoiding testimony. We can prove very little about historical events with your approach to the matter.

P.S.

A list of resurrection events recorded in the Bible.

Full List of Resurrections in the Bible – The Bible Sojourner

I have previously discussed how many future resurrections there are in the Bible, focusing specifically on the theology behind resurrection. However, I also thought it would be helpful to list all of the resurrections that are mentioned in Scripture for reference. Given the helpful feedback I...

petergoeman.com

 

[Matthias]

“Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having invetigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.”

(Luke 1:1-4, NASB)

 

[Riven]

Multiple accounts of it having happened are recorded in the Bible.* These are supernatural events.

They are claims of supernatural events. The distinction is important if we are taking this seriously.

By examining the evidence.

Explain to me how you determined that the supernatural claims made in the Bible are true and those in other holy books are false.

I had it happen in court cases many times. I never lost a case I testified in and my testimony about events that happened was always a major factor in the final decisions reached by judges and juries.

I've served on a jury as well. At no point were we asked to consider the supernatural as an explanation.

Anything an eyewitness has to say is evidence that something happened.

No, it isn't. If I called the police and said Matthias has murdered someone, that's not evidence that you actually murdered someone. That's nothing more than a claim that has to be investigated.

It’s nothing more than avoiding testimony. We can prove very little about historical events with your approach to the matter.

I'm not avoiding it. I'm saying I have no way to determine that 2,000 year old claims of the supernatural are true or false. I'm making an educated guess based on current scientific knowledge and my own lived experience.

 

[Matthias]

They are claims of supernatural events. The distinction is important if we are taking this seriously.


Explain to me how you determined that the supernatural claims made in the Bible are true and those in other holy books are false.


I've served on a jury as well. At no point were we asked to consider the supernatural as an explanation.


No, it isn't. If I called the police and said Matthias has murdered someone, that's not evidence that you actually murdered someone. That's nothing more than a claim that has to be investigated.


I'm not avoiding it. I'm saying I have no way to determine that 2,000 year old claims of the supernatural are true or false. I'm making an educated guess based on current scientific knowledge and my own lived experience.

Wallace had the same presupposition that you have.

 

[Matthias]

Nothing.

And, being a man of your word, you didn’t.

He had the exact same objections when he began looking at it as you have now. If I close my eyes and listen to him, he sounds just like you. He’s speaking your words. He was, in a manner of speaking, you.

Will you still do nothing with it?

 

[Riven]

And, being a man of your word, you didn’t.

He had the exact same objections when he began looking at it as you have now. If I close my eyes and listen to him, he sounds just like you. He’s speaking your words. He was, in a manner of speaking, you.

Will you still do nothing with it?

I sound nothing like him. He's accepted a supernatural world view because that's what he wants to believe. He mentions the objections that he had as a naturalist, and maybe those sound like something I'd say, but he isn't a naturalist anymore.

 

[Matthias]

He mentions the objections that he had as a naturalist, and maybe those sound like something I'd say, …

Verbatim

… but he isn't a naturalist anymore.

That’s right.

 

[Riven]

Verbatim



That’s right.

Then why is he only talking with people that agree with him?

 

[Matthias]

Then why is he only talking with people that agree with him?

He‘s training people in his books and videos how to speak with people who are atheists and agnostics.

 

[Riven]

He‘s training people in his books and videos how to speak with people who are atheists and agnostics.

Are you referring to apologetics or just general conversation?

 

[Matthias]

Are you referring to apologetics or just general conversation?

Both.

 

[Riven]

Both.

I've only ever seen him speaking with other Christians. Echo chambers make people stupid.

 

[Matthias]

Echo chambers make people stupid.

Hence the sign in my classroom: Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically.

The vast majority of the books in my personal library are written by people who don’t hold my theology. If after I die someone who doesn’t know me were to casually survey my book shelves, they might very well walk away mistakenly thinking that I was a trinitarian.

Though I have some, I’m not particularly interested in books that support my position. I want to read books that present the strongest arguments against my position.

 

[Matthias]

… something of a banality at the time …

Speaking of banality -

“The anti-supernatural bias is present in biology, physics, anthropology, psychology, archaeology, philosophy and Bible criticism. The consequence can be seen in the moral degradation of our society, the contention that aberrant psychology should be accepted as normal, the acceptance of a situational ethic, and the denial of both the inspiration of scripture, and the resurrection of our Lord.

In the face of opposition, the Christian can trust in the evidence that is supplied both by creation itself, and in the eyewitness testimony of the risen Lord. ‘For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar (Romans 3:3-4).”

Anti-Supernaturalism

In the face of opposition, the Christian can trust in the evidence that is supplied both by creation itself, and in the eyewitness testimony of the risen Lord.

soundteaching.org

I don’t know if you listened to what Wallace said in the video I linked in post #85 or not, but the “money quote” begins at the 15:38 mark.

“So whenever I’m reading through the Gospels I can believe some things about Jesus but this miracle stuff clearly can’t be true. So one of the things I had to ask myself is, okay, how do I get a universe though, where all of the science points to a universe that came into existence from nothing. In other words, the science says all space, time, and matter came into existence from nothing. Not from another spatial environment involving time or matter. But it has to come into existence from something outside of space, time and matter. That’s just standard cosmological model, that’s this big bang cosmology. Well if I believe that, that there’s something extra natural - because if it’s outside of space, time, and matter, it’s extra natural - so there’s something extra natural that caused the universe to come into existence, then every miracle we’re reading in the New Testament is what I call a small potato miracle. It’s not a big deal.”

That brings us back to what I thought, and still do, is an important book for you to read: There Is A God: How The World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind - Antony Flew’s book.

 

[Matthias]

“Jesus is alive. And that changes everything about today.” - Art Rainer

 

[Matthias]

“The resurrection validates every claim Jesus made. If death could not hold him, then his words are eternally true.” - Trevor Sheatz

 

[Matthias]

“… examine as critically as a detective …”

(William M. Ramsay, The Christ of the Earliest Christians, p. 20)

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed a couple of days ago -

“Hundreds saw the risen Jesus; the prophets had foretold it. If you believe neither the testimony of eyewitnesses nor the testimony of God (who cannot lie), then nothing will convince you.”

(Toby Logsdon)

https://x.com/tobylogsdon/status/2042285587147997611?s=46&t=T64e94h2unfHH-VO4i01zA