No assumptions, no "similar", either you are correctly representing me or you are not.
Much love!
The Heaven Going Lie - Voting Results
- Thread starter Hiddenthings
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Much love!
Why would you not clearly explain your belief?
Do you have a duality of existences?
Do you believe your life will be reunited with your body at the resurrection?
For me having a life hid in Christ is clearly different to how you perceive it, right? Now one of us is wrong, or possibly both!
Okay this is getting closer to the discussion.
There are a 1000 infants in the world...some a lured in SDA, some Mormons, some JW's, Catholics, Baptists etc etc...do you see the point?
Right - I agree
Agree
Is this true? You are saying that every sincere believer will find truth in time?
Again what if you are wrong? What if God pulls believers out of the world before the coming judgements?
If the common ground is the Inspired Word then you and I must agree that approaching that in prayer and diligence should lead us to truth.
I'm thinking we could find many things to disagree on, I'm sure so maybe one of us is yet to be revealed a greater truth?
I'm not convinced we have the right understanding on these issues.
I've answered you several times in my own words and with Scripture. We are alive spiritually in union with Christ and when my body dies, that will not change, I will remain in spirit union with Christ.
Apparenly you believe that union becomes broken when your body dies, and your spirit remains as though dead until the resurrection.
I advise more careful reading, both my posts, but especially the Bible. "our life is hid with Christ in God", is the saying of the Scripture. So when you don't know the actual passage, can you say your doctrine is correct?
Much love!
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I’m still not over it, sorry, but let me ask it plainly: do you believe you have an immortal spirit within you now that coexists in heaven, and that when you die this immortal spirit is either conscious in heaven or unconscious?
No death does not break the promises of God.
When speaking of the "whole of life" the first century believers understood the death state without reservation.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
"He" refers to the person of David - all of this life and existence.
When you read this in the context of 2 Samuel 7 and the promises (and comfort) God gave him -then all of it makes perfect sense.
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you sleep with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.”
These matters are not known to David today, for he lies down with his fathers, and the history that followed is entirely unknown to him. He went to the grave with a living faith that trusted in God’s promise.
I know you can read this as plainly as I can, and I also know that you will hold to your own views. That is why I’m spending time on this subject—trying to understand why certain sincere believers are not led into the truth, and what the consequences of that may be.
Now if we accepted your position, we would know Acts 2:29 and 2 Sam 7:12 would read entirely different to the point this text would be unrecognizable.
Its the "how" which is question Marks. You have a literal view with notions I don't see taught in the Word...one of us is wrong.
Agreed. This is the issue - I've real presented evidence in Acts 2 & 2 Sam 7 which would demand you to provide a reason why God would reassure a man of his unseen future if as you beleive he is in Heaven now seeing it all.
You can't reconcile that for me from that Scripture.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
There are more than a thousand infants in the world and yes many are lured into Sda , mormonism , jw , buddism
and a lot of other isms ,
Just like i too was led into much deception . BUT GOD drew me out .
Man do as man do . And WHEN HE called THEY DID NOT ANSWER .
The fault is on man . And in every singel case
of one being led into deception , Beleive me it is because they loved deception and not TRUTH .
GOD can free ANY ONE and HE does give us WHOLE new desires .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Will every sincere beleiver find truth . NO .
But every SINCERE beleiver will .
MEANING i see lots of folks who sincerely seek , But NOT GOD , they seek that which pleases their god . As in
the one in the mirror .
It is real simple and i have no plans to make it complicated so allow me to explain how
one can t est to see WHO and WHAT , or who and what they do love and have loved all along .
Let us open our bible again .
See those words . I will make it easy , begin at the gospels
Now if what we beleive is twisting and omitting any of them words , WE LOVE A LIE , NOT THE TRUTH .
WE can make this real simple indeed .
Many have sat under men who twisted things , because that was the desire of their heart , EVEN though
you can bet they have convinced themselves this d esire cometh and has come OF GOD .
BUT any desire , any thought , any word of man , of woman , of child , of even a talking donkey or angel
THAT contradicts That which is written , IS A LIE .
Let us not heed the wise men of this world who fleece these flocks
For through greek and false claims they t ear down the very words of GOD to fit their own agendas .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
True common ground is Centered soley on the CHRIST OF GOD .
And beware for many already do have something very deceptive that they cliam as common ground .
And its real sneaky my friend .
THEY claim let us no t wo rry over doctrines , Love is our common ground .
AND YET Their version of love twisted and omits TRUTH .
OH yeah satan is a real highly clever fellow and as i said afore and above
MANY NOW LOVE his version of this love he has preached by means of ecumencisim .
The more we learn our bible , THE FAR better off we had been .
FOR the love of GOD , aka CHARITY REJOICES ONLY IN TRUTH , NOT INQUITY , thus not a lie .
YET i see a real broad road that its love overlooks sins , even accepts some sins
And now even accepts UNBELEIF .
Believe me when i say THAT LOVE is of the world and of all darkness and its father is satan .
SO beware it . at all costs let not that judge not correct not love come upon thee .
For once it does IT SHALL GUIDE THEE ONLY into GREATER and into GREATER ERROR till the whole be leavened .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I have seen God pull men out of false doctrines .
God does not allow the true sheep to GO under HIS wrath .
But he sure does allow us to at times suffer tribulatiions of men .
In fact if we just read the bible for ourselves and not through the lens of these pre concieved ideals
of which some things are true but some are false , we had learned what we NEED to know .
We wont know all , but we will surely need to KNOW what we have need to KNOW .
I have an idea for us all .
How about we just start afresh and anew in reading the lovely bible again for ourselves .
Continue to do so daily , do it with others and do it with joy and hunger to serve GOD to learn of HIM .
YOU WATCH how t hings can more and more in time become clearer and clearer .
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
I believe I am alive in Christ, having spiritual life being joined to Him, and that does not end with the death of the body.
You will always go wrong when you try to define New Testament Christianity according to Old Testemant ways. So that David sleeps in the grave, that's phenomenal language, to all earthly appearance, he's dead and buried. But Jesus taught that all live to God, whether alive or dead in this world.
Either you accept this or you don't. These are simple and unequivicable statements.
Anyway, I tire of repeating myself.
Much love!
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
On the one hand, salvation is not through knowledge or learning. Christianity is not a gnostic religion.The Heaven Going Lie
Hi @Marilyn C To avoid derailing the other thread, I’ve started a new one to examine the texts Christians often cite in support of the “heaven-going” belief. Instead of focusing on the many clear biblical passages showing that the grave is the destination for the dead, I thought it would be...www.christianityboard.com
Interesting we have 50 / 50 split on voting as to whether people believe they go to heaven when they die.
What are the implications for those who are wrong?
The “wrong” belief must have consequences in terms of how people live in this life - some view their walk as a probation in faith tested while others believe in automatic acceptance.
Would teaching about going to heaven have a greater impact on those who hold mistaken beliefs about the afterlife than on those who believe in the resurrection of the whole person?
If someone is wrong about going to heaven, this could provoke fear, anxiety, and urgent reflection, challenging their assumptions about salvation, judgment, and reward. If God were to raise them from the dead, they might become defensive, having neither fully known nor believed in this reality. If a person lived with false confidence and did not struggle to conform to Christ its possible they could be rejected as not knowing Christ and vice versa.
Conversely, if a person’s belief about going to heaven is correct, then the instant anyone faces this reality, their expectations regarding salvation or judgment would immediately be fulfilled, leaving no further uncertainty or anticipation.
I’m interested in people’s perspectives on how being right or wrong about the afterlife affects a believer’s life and the consequences of these beliefs.
On the other hand, salvation IS through belief in Jesus. How will you believe Jesus if you have no idea what He taught?
The sad state of affairs is thus: Even here, on a Christian forum, where virtually everyone would fall in the top 1% with regard to Christian learning... we can't even agree on what salvation means, or how precisely it works. We can't agree on what the gospel message is, or whether there are multiple gospels. I would wager that less than half the people here could tell me 5 teachings of Jesus off the top of their head.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Quote where I've said this.
Otherwise stop misrepresenting me.
Again I ask you . . . should maturity in character accompany maturity in doctrine?
The answer is, yes.
Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Much love!
Have you considered the way you say this?
Do you choose your beliefs and interpretations according to your preference? Do you set out with a view in mind, and then find ways to make the Bible seem to support that?
This is what you are saying of me. Is it true of you, and you are projecting? Or do you simply choose to write in an attempt to marginalize others? You are essentially saying I'm intellectually dishonest, and that rather than subjecting myself to whatever it is I believe the Bible teaches, that instead I select according to preference.
Most often I find that when someone speaks this way, it's because they lack a valid argument, and substitute these sorts of vain sayings instead.
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
and many of the saints arose from their graves After JESUS had risen .
The firstborn from the dead . He who beleives in me though he were dead yet shall he live
and he who lives and beleives in me shall never die .
I AM the RESSURECTION and THE LIFE .
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Your point seems to be that the state of the dead as taught in the Old Testament is different from what is taught in the New Testament. This of course is incorrect.
Why, then, would you explain away Acts 2:29 and 2 Samuel 7:12, when both clearly offer evidence that David is completely and utterly dead, returned to the dust and that only the power of God can raise him to life again?
I’ve also long known you to be a sensitive man who doesn’t readily welcome being challenged or shown to be wrong. You tend to deal with the person rather than the text.
This theme has highlighted a number of truths about how we form our beliefs and how poorly some people can explain their own positions. I asked whether you believe a person is conscious in heaven when they die, and that question still hasn’t been answered clearly.
The ramifications of such a belief do great violence to all the promises God made to men like Abraham and David. It is for this reason that Hebrews 11:39 makes it abundantly clear they are now only in the Mind of the Father awaiting Him to raise them from the dust.
I value your mature responses thank you.
I agree salvation is not on the basis of knowledge and that its by faith (active abiding belief) we are saved.
Hosea is a wonderful prophecy for our time!
Start with the plain statements, and work your way from there to the less plain. When Jesus says without any equivocation that all, whether alive or dead, live to God, there is no mistaking the meaning. When Jesus says just as clearly, that the one who lives and believes in Him will never die, Oh why will you not believe it?
Paul wrote, better to depart and be with the Lord, there is no mistaking his expectation. And on and on it goes, but you are very set in your view, and will not receive such plain statements. There is nothing more I can offer you as you will not receive the very plain teachings in the Bible.
Much love!
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