Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

[Hiddenthings]

Because I'm tired of responding to your posts since I disagree with everything you're saying. We should just agree to disagree at this point, but you don't seem to have any interest in that.

Ultimately if you are not willing to discern the symbolic language you will always be in the dark on this subject.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But there is no death in Heaven!

So? It's talking about no more death anywhere, including earth. That will be the case after Jesus returns to take vengeance on all unbelievers while believers will all be changed to put on bodily immortality at that point. No one will die after that.

Maybe you have not had the opportunity to look at this subject in sufficient detail.

No, I've looked at this subject in great detail. Maybe you have never asked God for wisdom about this subject (James 1:5-7). If you do and don't doubt then He will give it to you.

There are three of these heaven and earth periods

No, there are not.

- did you read Isaiah 65?

Yes. Did you?

• First Period: Israel under Moses

Where does scripture refer to that time period as the first heaven and first earth?

• — Isaiah 65 contains prophecies pointing to Christ’s future reign during the Millennium.

No, it does not. Where in Isaiah 65 do you think it "contains prophecies pointing to Christ’s future reign during the Millennium"?

• Second Period: The Millennial Kingdom under Christ and the saints — Revelation 21 describes the passing of Christ’s reign and the establishment of the final New Heavens and New Earth, where God is fully present with His people.

You are just making things up. There is no "second period". Jesus talked about "this age" and "the age to come". That's it. Learn from Jesus. During this age people get married. During the eternal age to come, people will no longer marry and no longer die (Luke 20:34-36). That is referring to when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in when Jesus returns.

• The Eternal Kingdom: God reigns forever, being all in all, with no end to His kingdom.

That will be ushered in when Jesus returns. As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, when Jesus comes again He will then deliver His kingdom to God the Father.

I don't not deny because the literal is used of the symbolic.

Say what?

Maybe you missed his reference to Isaiah 65?

But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides. 2 Pe 3:13.

What don't you understand about that? Read the previous verses. He was saying despite what he wrote about the current heavens and earth being literally dissolved and burned up, we still look for new heavens and a new earth. It's not a case of all hope being lost with the destruction of the heavens and earth because they will be renewed in the form of the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness will dwell (no wickedness, no death, no crying, no sorrow, no pain).

What new political heavens and earth are we waiting for?

Say what? I don't look for any new political heavens and earth.

I can tell from your rash answers you have not thought this though.

LOL. You are hilarious. Are you a comedian? I guarantee that I have thought this through at least as much as you have. I see your view as being a complete JOKE. You have done NOTHING to convince me that ANYTHING you're saying is true. Read that again. Your arguments are EXTREMELY WEAK. And you're telling me that I haven't thought this through? LOL. Get serious.

If you read with resistance it won't be revealed to you.

I don't need you to reveal anything to me. It is very clear to me that you are very lacking in spiritual discernment. That 2 Peter 3:10-13 should be taken literally is very OBVIOUS and you can't even see that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ultimately if you are not willing to discern the symbolic language you will always be in the dark on this subject.

You are in complete darkness on this subject. There is no symbolic language in 2 Peter 3. Your lack of discernment causes you to not be able to differentiate between literal and symbolic text.

 

[Hiddenthings]

So? It's talking about no more death anywhere, including earth. That will be the case after Jesus returns to take vengeance on all unbelievers while believers will all be changed to put on bodily immortality at that point. No one will die after that.

So why does literal Heaven need destroying, as if it could

What type of heavens can pass away now that you understand Deuteronomy 32:1?

LOL. You are hilarious. Are you a comedian? I guarantee that I have thought this through at least as much as you have. I see your view as being a complete JOKE. You have done NOTHING to convince me that ANYTHING you're saying is true. Read that again. Your arguments are EXTREMELY WEAK. And you're telling me that I haven't thought this through? LOL. Get serious.

This is defensive language which masks a void in your understanding.

 

[Adventageous]

It is the literal earth in view. The future fiery destruction of the earth is compared directly to the global flood in 2 Peter 3:6-7 because both are literal, physical, global events.

Baptism (total immersion) of this present evil world by water (worldwide lake / sea of water, in days of Noah), and then by fire (worldwide lake / sea of fire). Indeed.

 

[Hiddenthings]

But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides. 2 Pe 3:13.

This section is not about the annihilation of heaven and earth, but rather the complete removal of the spiritual powers and evil governance present in the world through sin.

Because you do not understand the political forces at work in Judaism at that time, or in apostate Christianity today, you cannot interpret the symbolic language correctly.

If you believe righteousness concerns literal dirt and the invisible realms of sky and space, then you are completely in the dark on this subject.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So why does literal Heaven need destroying, as if it could

Scripture talks about new heavens (plural) and a new earth. There are three heavens. The heaven where Jesus, the angels and the souls of believers are is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), which is also called paradise. I'm not so sure that the references to the new heavens and new earth are including the third heaven. It most likely refers to the first heaven (earth's atmosphere) and second heaven (outer space). Any place where wickedness dwells, including where fallen angels dwell, needs to be dissolved and renewed to remove all wickedness from them so that they become a place where only righteousness can dwell.

What type of heavens can pass away now that you understand Deuteronomy 32:1?

The literal first and second heavens can pass away in terms of how they are now and be renewed to not allow for any wickedness to dwell in them.

This is defensive language which masks a void in your understanding.

Empty words from you. I speak the truth and you have nothing to refute it. That's the bottom line. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever from Peter that he is not speaking literally in 2nd Peter 3. That's the bottom line that you can't refute. He compares the future fiery destruction of the heavens and the earth directly to the flood in Noah's day in 2 Peter 3:6-7. What do you think, that he was comparing a literal event to a symbolic one? How does that make any sense?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides. 2 Pe 3:13.

This section is not about the annihilation of heaven and earth,

You don't read very carefully. I have said more than once that I don't see it as the annihilation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the renewal of the heavens and the earth in the form of the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness can dwell and where death, sorrow, crying and pain will no longer occur.

but rather the complete removal of the spiritual powers and evil governance present in the world through sin.

It will be the literal removal of all wickedness from the heavens and the earth, which is why the new heavens and new earth will be a place where only righteousness dwells.

Because you do not understand the political forces at work in Judaism at that time, or in apostate Christianity today, you cannot interpret the symbolic language correctly.

Because you are lacking in spiritual discernment, you cannot differentiate between literal and symbolic text. The text in 2 Peter 3 is clearly literal.

If you believe righteousness concerns literal dirt and the invisible realms of sky and space, then you are completely in the dark on this subject.

LOL. You continue to display your comedic skills. Of course I don't believe the heavens and earth themselves will be made righteous since they are not wicked in and of themselves, but rather that they will be made into a place where only righteousness can dwell. All wickedness will be literally removed from the first heavens and first earth that now exist, resulting in the new heavens and new earth. According to Peter, this will happen when Jesus comes again unexpected as a thief in the night, which has not yet happened.

I have shared the truth of this matter with you extensively at this point and you refuse to see it because of your stubborn insistence on believing what you want to believe. That's on you. Ask God for wisdom so that you stop believing falsehood (James 1:5-7).

 

[Hiddenthings]

Scripture talks about new heavens (plural) and a new earth. There are three heavens.

These are periods in time - epoc or ages one replacing the next.

The heaven where Jesus, the angels and the souls of believers are is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4),

Paul was taken in vision to the last age - all and in all - too wonderful to speak!

In a dreamlike state, seized by God’s power for the purpose of revelation, experiencing a vision or trance (Acts 10:10)

Heaven and Earth as Symbolic Ruling Powers and Subjects:

• Ruling powers: Isaiah 14:4, 12; 34:4–10
• Subjects: Revelation 6:13; 12:16

The Three “Heavens”:

1. Mosaic Heaven: Deuteronomy 32:1; Isaiah 1:2
2. Millennial Heaven: Isaiah 65:17–18
3. Eternal “All in All”: 1 Corinthians 15:24–28; see also Revelation 21:1

So obvious only the willingly deceived cannot see this truth!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides. 2 Pe 3:13.

What promise do you think that verse is talking about?

 

[Hiddenthings]

It will be the literal removal of all wickedness from the heavens and the earth, which is why the new heavens and new earth will be a place where only righteousness dwells.

How can Christ ask his Father to bring Peace in Heaven to Earth if you say Heaven is full of wickedness.

Some major issues here!

 

[Hiddenthings]

What promise do you think that verse is talking about?

Hebrews 11:10

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These are periods in time - epoc or ages one replacing the next.

That has nothing to do with the new heavens and new earth. There is the first heavens and earth that exist now and were created by God thousands of years ago and then there will be the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Your three new heavens and three new earths theory is not taught in scripture.

Paul was taken in vision to the last age - all and in all - too wonderful to speak!

In a dreamlike state, seized by God’s power for the purpose of revelation, experiencing a vision or trance (Acts 10:10)

Heaven and Earth as Symbolic Ruling Powers and Subjects:

• Ruling powers: Isaiah 14:4, 12; 34:4–10
• Subjects: Revelation 6:13; 12:16

The Three “Heavens”:

1. Mosaic Heaven: Deuteronomy 32:1; Isaiah 1:2
2. Millennial Heaven: Isaiah 65:17–18
3. Eternal “All in All”: 1 Corinthians 15:24–28; see also Revelation 21:1

So obvious only the willingly deceived cannot see this truth!

LOL. Pathetic! You speak utter nonsense. No, Paul was given a vision of the literal paradise that he also called the third heaven. I can't take you seriously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can Christ ask his Father to bring Peace in Heaven to Earth if you say Heaven is full of wickedness.

Some major issues here!

Hello? You're not reading my words carefully at all. I never said that heaven is full of wickedness. Good grief. I talked about the three heavens. I do not believe that the third heaven where Jesus, the angels and the souls of the dead in Christ dwell is full of wickedness. Why would I think that? Good grief. What a waste of time this is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That has nothing to do with the new heavens and new earth. There is the first heavens and earth that exist now and were created by God thousands of years ago and then there will be the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Your three new heavens and three new earths theory is not taught in scripture.

Leave it with you to digest - you need to study Deut 32 - Isaiah 65 - 2 Peter 3 and Rev 21

LOL. Pathetic! You speak utter nonsense. No, Paul was given a vision of the literal paradise that he also called the third heaven. I can't take you seriously.

Because you have nothing Scriptural to provide you always default to these replies - they do nothing for me at all.

 

[Adventageous]

I tend to think there might be a connection to 2 Thessalonians 2:4. But I don't take the one meant in that verse to be meaning satan.

2 Thes. 2:3-4 is dealing with the position of 'antichrist', and the 'apostasy' (falling away) that came because of it, also called there, "the man of sin", "the son of perdition" (as Judas was, an internal betrayer who held a position of a bishoprick, as Judas was; and so Paul warned in several places of such, drawing from Dan. 11, and other places in the OT), whom is already present on earth -

• See page 2 (image & chart) - Single Page (Dual Sided) Charts - Prophecy Print Outs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
• See page 2 (chart) - Single Page (Dual Sided) Charts - Prophecy Print Outs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Romans, with their Capitoline wolf, would come with terrible strength, breaking into pieces other nations (Dan. 2:33,35,40, 7:7-8,17,19-20,23-24, 8:9-10,23a, 11:20; Rev. 12:3-4 KJB), but itself would ‘shortly’ (Psa. 109:8; Pro. 6:15, see also Job 14:1; Heb. 12:10; Gen. 24:55; Num. 9:20-22; Gen. 29:20; Gen. 27:44-45, 31:41; Gen. 47:9; Job 10:20 KJB) break up into pieces itself (Dan. 2:40-43, 7:24, 11:20b ; see also ‘brake in pieces’: Exo. 9:25, 23:24, 32:19; Deu. 9:17, 10:1-2; 1 Kin. 19:11; 2 Kin. 11:18, 18:4, 23:14; 2 Chr. 23:17, 31:1,4; Psa. 48:7; Jer. 19:11, 52:17; Dan. 8:7 KJB). Yet, in its days of strength as a “king of fierce countenance” (Dan. 8:23a; Deu. 28:49,50-57 KJB), it would tax the world (Dan. 2:40, 11:20; Mat. 10:3, 22:17-21; Mar. 2:14, 12:14,16,17; Luk. 2:1,3,5, 5:27,29, 19:2, 20:22,24,25, 23:2; Rom. 13:7 KJB).

Out of the disharmony and fracturing of the Iron Empire of Pagan Rome into a number of individual nations (Dan. 2:33,41-42 KJB), would come a differing phase of the Roman element (Dan. 2:43 KJB), as it donned the outward clothing of the sheep (Christian; Jhn. 10:26; Rev. 2:2 KJB), and thus rule (Dan. 7:8,11,20b-21,24-26, 8:10-12 KJB) in apostasy (2 Thes. 2:3-4; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; Rev. 2:20 KJB) as “a king ... understanding dark sentences” (Dan. 8:23b KJB), or a corruption of the mystery of the Gospel (Psa. 49:4, 78:2; Pro. 1:6; Mat. 13:11,34; Mar. 4:11,13,34; Luk. 8:10; Act. 20:28-30; Rom. 11:25, 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Eph. 1:9, 3:3,4,5,9, 5:32, 6:19; Col. 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thes. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9,16; Rev. 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7 KJB *). It would come as a “vile person” (Dan. 11:21 KJB; see also 1 Sam. 3:13 ‘fornication’, ‘idolatry’, ‘theft’, ‘oppression’, 15:9, “vile” beasts; Job 18:3, “beast”, “vile”; Psa. 15:4; Isa. 32:5-6; Jer. 29:17, “vile”, “evil”; Nah. 1:14, 3:6; Rom. 1:26 KJB), a “man of sin”, a “son of perdition (destruction)” (2 Thes. 2:3 KJB; see also Jhn. 17:12; 1 Thes. 5:3; 2 Thes. 1:9; 1 Tim. 6:9; 2 Pet. 2:1, 3:16; 1 Jhn. 3:4; Rev. 17:8 KJB), who would take authority deceitfully and subtly (Gen. 3:1 KJB) by “peace” (Dan. 8:25, 11:21,32,34 KJB; a perversion of the Gospel of peace; Jer. 6:14, 8:11, 23:17; Eze. 13:10,16; Nah. 1:15; Luk. 1:19, 2:14; Rom. 10:15 KJB) so taking upon itself the “daily” (Act. 2:47 KJB) of Christ’s heavenly ministration (Dan. 8:11-13, 11:31, 12:11 KJB), obscuring the heavenly sanctuary and God’s true law (Pro. 24:21; Dan. 7:25; Heb. 8:1-2, 9:11-12 KJB), for a very long time.

* See also “riddle” in Num. 12:8; Jdg. 14:12-19 KJB. See also “hard questions” in 1 Kin. 10:1; 2 Chr. 9:1 KJB. See also “... take up a parable ... a taunting proverb ...” (Hab. 2:6 KJB). To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols, “His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.” (Jhn. 16:29 KJB), thus, as it is written, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” (Pro. 25:2 KJB)​

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The ministration of Jesus Christ (by His shed blood, death & sacrifice in the earthly courtyard), in the Heavenly Sanctuary and True Tabernacle above was obscured, along with His true & faithful remnant church, by an earthly counterfeit system (Act. 20:28-30; 2 Cor. 11:13-15; Heb. 7:23; 3 Jhn. 1:9; Rev. 12:9,13 KJB).

Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, S.J. (Jesuit); Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei adversus hujus temporis Haereticos; Tom. 2, “Controversia Prima, De Conciliorum Auctoritate), Caput. 17, (1628 ed.) Vol. 1, pp. 266-translated

• [Latin] “Secundo probatur ratione, in Scripturis fundata; nam omnia nomina, quae in Scripturis tribuuntur Christo, unde constat eum esse supra Ecclesiam, eadem omnia tribuuntur Pontifici.” - http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080015572_C/1080015573_T2/1080015573_21.pdf
• [English] “All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.”

Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia

“A”; “Antichrist”:

• “... In composition anti has different meanings: ... Antichrist (Greek Antichristos). ... The word Antichrist occurs only in the Johannine Epistles; but there are so-called real parallelisms to these occurrences in the Apocalypse, in the Pauline Epistles, and less explicit ones in the Gospels and the Book of Daniel. ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Antichrist

“S”; “Sacrifice”

• “... anti ... (in the place of ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice

"Vicar"

• “Vicar (Latin vicarius, from vice, “instead of”) ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar

In Latin, “christi” means Christ, Anointed.

“J”, “Origin of the Name of Jesus Christ”:

• “... Christus or “anointed” ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Name of Jesus Christ

“V”, “Vicar of Christ”:

• “Vicar of Christ (Latin Vicarius Christi). ... thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). ... and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ

Papal Encyclicals; The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII”, Encyclical Letter June 20, 1894; Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae:

• “But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...” - Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae - Papal Encyclicals

“C”, “Church”:

• “... It will be enough, however, to refer to the evidence contained in the epistles of St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, himself a disciple of the Apostles. In these epistles (about A.D. 107) he again and again asserts that the supremacy of the bishop is of Divine institution and belongs to the Apostolic constitution of the Church. He goes so far as to affirm that the bishop stands in the place of Christ Himself. ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Church

Catholic Online Library; Church Documents; “Ad Sinarum Gentem (1954)”; Point 11:

• “... Supreme Pontiff, Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth ...” - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Ad Sinarum Gentem (1954)

Catholic Online Library; Church Documents; “In Plurimis (1888)”; Point 2:

• “... We, indeed, to all men are the Vicar of Christ, the Son of God ...” - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: In Plurimis (1888)

Antichrist:

• Lat. - Vicarius Christi
• Lat. Translit. - antichristus
• koine Grk. - αντιχριστος
• koine Grk. translit. - antichristos
• Eng. - antichrist (in the place of christ)
• Heb. - “המשׁיח תחתיו” (see Lev. 6:22; see also Greek Origen's Hexapla - Lev. 6:15, "ὁ χριστὸς ἀντ᾿", "o christos ant'")
• Heb. Translit. - haMäshiyªch Tach'Täy (meaning 'anointed in his stead / place / position)

# 1 Pagan Rome (Capitoline Wolf) ------------ #2 Sheep (Representing Christianity) -------- #3 Wolf in Sheep's Clothing (Papal Rome)

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[Hiddenthings]

Hello? You're not reading my words carefully at all. I never said that heaven is full of wickedness. Good grief. I talked about the three heavens. I do not believe that the third heaven where Jesus, the angels and the souls of the dead in Christ dwell is full of wickedness. Why would I think that? Good grief. What a waste of time this is.

This is a fabrication in your mind.

Can you show me where Jesus speaks about these three layers of heavens lol.

You have 4 gospels to quote from - I'll enjoy your response.

 

[Hiddenthings]

# 1 Pagan Rome (Capitoline Wolf) ------------ #2 Sheep (Representing Christianity) -------- # Wolf in Sheep's Clothing (Papal Rome)

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How can you be so right and yet so wrong at the same time?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hebrews 11:10

Yes, it will bring about that promise, but that's not what I had in mind. Peter was referring to "His promise" that he had previously referenced.

2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The answer I was looking for was the promise of His second coming, which last days scoffers scoff at. His second coming has not yet occurred, therefore we still look for new heavens and a new earth in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a fabrication in your mind.

Can you show me where Jesus speaks about these three layers of heavens lol.

You are being very foolish. I said nothing about three layers of heaven. I mentioned the three separate heavens. I showed you 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 where Paul wrote about the third heaven/paradise (I'm sure Jesus is aware of it) and you proceeded to butcher the verse beyond recognition. Is there no verse that you won't twist to fit your doctrine? I doubt it. Pathetic. The first heaven would be the earth's atmosphere and the second heaven is outer space. Your refusal to acknowledge that there are three different heavens is the reason you can't understand the reference to "the heavens" rather than just "heaven".