My personal eclectic view

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually no. I *intentionally* left the Dispensational hermeneutic because of the inconsistencies I found there. Having the 70th Week of Dan 9 fulfilled in Jesus' time is perfectly in accord with the 6 things Daniel was told the 70th Week would lead to. And these 6 things were things that Christ fulfilled in his earthly ministry.

On the other hand, separating the 70th week from the previous 69 weeks renders this not a 70 Week period but rather an unknown period of time. That's the major reason I gave up on that outlook.

Well you said the abomination was fuflfilled in Jesus day. How can it be Rome did not sack Jerusalem until 70AD long after the 70th week.

Here are the things that have to take place in the 490 years:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Remember it is for Israel and Jerusalem.

Has Israel finished that one transgression?
Has Israel made an end of sins?
Has Israel made reconciliation for iniquity
Has Israel brought in everlasting righteousness
Has Israel sealed visions and prophecy? (Remember JOhns vision and prophecy fell 1/2 century+ after the 70weeks according to you)
Has Israel anointed Jesus?

In the 63rd week Messiah is cut off.
The Roman prince did not arrive to destroy Jerusalem until 66AD after the 70 weeks in your timetable
The Prince is a singular man and not an army according to the passage her, Matt. 24,and Thess.

When did a roman Prince make a 7 year covenant with Israel? When did a Roman prince after 3 1/2 years end the act of sacrifices and oblations? It hasn't happened yet so it must be future.

Remember when Rome destroyed the temple, they did not enter the holy place!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The 3 Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse are obviously in agreement with one another since they cover the same Discourse. In the place where Matthew and Mark mention the "Abomination of Desolation" Luke mentions the invasion of Jerusalem by what appears to be the Roman Army. Hence, the AoD is the Roman Army.

Since the Roman Army conquered Jerusalem in 70 AD that is obviously what Jesus was talking about when he talked about the destruction of the Temple and the invasion of Jerusalem. And being that he said it all--both the event and the preceding signs--would take place in "this generation" the conquest of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD could *only* be what Jesus was talking about in his Olivet Discourse. Revelation and 2 Thessalonians are separate subjects.

Sorry but tht is the sloppy conclusion proposed by covenant theology and preterism.

But when you look at the Olivert discourse carefully, you see the disciples asked Jesus three separate questions and Jesus gave three separate answers!

When will the temple be destroyed (Answered in Luke 21:21-24 . He also in Luke spoke of signs in vses 9-11 that will happen in the undefined future! All of these have come to pass. Long after 34 AD

What is the sign of His return: Mt. 24:27

What are the signs of the end of this age: Mt. 24:4-26

None of these things have happened nor can the allegorical hermeneutic twist these passages to force them to fit what jesus said. I was a covenant theology believer when I first got saved and it was only through intense study of SCripture and the varied theologies of the end times did I become 100% convinced that the dispensational eschatology is the best. It is not perfect, like all man made theologies have their flaws, but it does the least harm to Scripture than covenant and preterist theology does concerning the end times.

 

[Marty fox]

Rom 2.8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

This "great distress" or "great tribulation" is designed to punish those who do evil, including Israel. Rev 7 informs us that the 144,000 are preserved from a destruction that is designed to bring the world into eternal judgment. But they obviously are being threatened with destruction without detailing all that they've had to suffer.

And I believe the Great Multitude from all nations in vs 14 present for us a vision of their entry into heaven at the *end* of this period of great distress. So yes, the saints suffer great tribulation and are delivered from it through resurrection. But the unrighteous also suffer it because of their wickedness. Both groups go through great tribulation, one deservedly and the other not.

Yes, it's the evil who suffer final wrath frorm God. But the righteous suffer in this present wicked world because we are going through what evil men have brought upon us.

Yes but even the verse you quoted mentions wrath. There is a difference between the wrath of God and the great tribulation.

The wrath is on the unsaved and the great tribulation is on the saints. Stephen, Paul and the apostles are a part of the great multitude from every tribe tong and nation.

Even Paul in the verse you quoted mentions the Jews first which happened in 70AD

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I never said the greatest tribulation I said there is only one "the great tribulation" which is greater than other great tribulations and the ones in Revelation 7 aren't raptured I believe that they are martyred saints over all time.

Its the SAME THING, there is one GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION PERIOD, but much tribulation, and that would also be great tribulation. The Church Age period was great tribulation, WW2 was great troubles, people get hung up on great tribulation, I don't. WW1 and WW2 were great tribulation, just not the greatest ever and Jesus does call it the the Greatest Ever Tribulation, not just GREAT TRIBULATION, because he adds a qualifier he says there will be "Great Tribulation" like no one has ever seen before nor will ever see again. That means its nit merely great tribulation, but the greatest ever tribulation. Therefore any time tribulation or even great tribulation is used, it doesn't have to be the greatest ever tribulation being spoken about.

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only be the pre trib. raptured Church. Paul makes it very clear no man goes to heaven but sleeps until Jesus blows the last trump. The Dead in Christ rise when? At the LAST TRUMP. No man is in heaven now save maybe Elijah and Moses.

 

[David in NJ]

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ.

Well, that is exactly what the Scriptures Declare and Welcome to Truth = Thy word is TRUTH

It views the 70th Week of Daniel 9 as future and disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks mentioned there. And it views the "Abomination of Desolation," mentioned in both Dan 9 and Matt 24, as a reference to the Antichrist.

Now you just deviated from the TRUTH

Daniel 9 is a Dual Fulfillment Prophecy concerning the AoD

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If you do not think Satan can still deceive Christians you would be mistaken. Lets take any Prophetic Lingo, if you have 100s of interpretations then someone is hearing WRONG FACTS and it is always Satan who twists the scripture. In Luke 4 he twisted scriptures and Jesus rebuked him with scriptures. He told Adam & Eve, you will not surely die etc. etc.

Take all of Christendom, either all of the Pre Rapture Trib. people are deceive or all the Post/Mid trib. people are deceived, who is deceiving them? Satan of course. Satan and his demons whisper lies to us every day, don't kid yourself that there isn't a perpetual battle going on.

I know what you mean. I've been in three different denominations BEFORE I was born again of the Holy Spirit while in the last one. There are many in the Church who are not actually the Bride of Christ. They are deceived.

And even though it has been many decades now that I am the Bride of Christ, it has only been about ten years ago, after joining my first Christian forum site that I found out about the hundreds of different interpretations of Scripture there are out there, when there should only be one by the One! That is when I prayed and asked God to wipe my mind of ALL false doctrines of man and even demons because I only want the truth by the Spirit of Truth. Of course, He answered that prayer immediately! He knew my heart, and I knew His will.

Wow! I finally had clarity. I don't have conflicting questions running around my brain anymore that you must choose which one is best FOR YOU, not what God demands, especially on the issue of SIN. Those still under the influence of Satan believe what I heard on the radio the other day (and was shocked). That pastor actually said that Jesus came and died on the cross to free us from the punishment of sin. That is not the "truth that will set you free." Read the whole passage, John 8:32, 34-36. (33 is only the Pharisees' response.) He also treats 1 John 1:9 as a get out of hell free card, when in reality it is the same as Acts 2:38 that, if that experience is real (and it is), you will be free from lawless sin (1 John 3:9, and won't have to add the word practice to, to be relatable.)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well, that is exactly what the Scriptures Declare and Welcome to Truth = Thy word is TRUTH


Now you just deviated from the TRUTH

Daniel 9 is a Dual Fulfillment Prophecy concerning the AoD

Yikes! There is a lot of confusion on these Christian forum sites. You are both wrong. BTW, why did you conceal who you were responding to? I'd like to know.

cc: @Ronald D Milam - See...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Thank you for sharing your view, but I'm not sure if you're attributing the Mid-Trib view to me, or simply describing what you think of my position? I'm certainly not Mid-Trib, though I can understand why there is such a position. It is not, however, historically validate, in my opinion. It does not enjoy historical depth.

I read your view that you think is post-trib. but it doesn't include the last half of the GT, thus it seems to me that you described Mid-Trib not Post-Trib.

The coming of the Kingdom pictured in the 7th Trump in Rev 11

Chapter 11 ends as you say. But then chapter 12 reiterates history starting over.

I do not see two periods of 3.5 years explicitly described as such anywhere in the book of Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible. It is simply being assumed that Daniel's "70th Week" is a future 7 year period which must contain the 3.5 years mentioned in the book of Revelation. Somehow another 3.5 year period is fit in there by the reader to make the period amount to 7 years. I think this is completely illegitimate, biblically.

Randy, you are not adding the first 3.5 years and the second 3.5 years together which makes 7 years. They are found in Rev. 12 and 13. I already told you where to find this. Did you just scan my post? Your last sentence above leads me to believe you don't read, just scan, but cannot comprehend.

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

First 3.5 years of the GT, Rev. 12 (the dragon is the devil)
Rev. 12. Here Daniel 9's Israel/the woman is protected for 3.5 years. Rev. 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. These national Israelites become Christians and saved - this is their 'nourishment.' Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved

But Christians are not. 17... and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

During the GT, NO new Gentile Christians will come to faith. This is only for national Israel to be saved. Out of the last four church ages: Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodecia, only Philadelphians will be protected: 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. All the others still need to "overcome," through martyrdom because their robes are dirty and need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb, Rev. 7.

Second 3.5 years (42 months) of the GT, Rev 13. (the beast is the antichrist.)

Here is what Revelation 13 has to say and includes both newly saved Israel and Christians who are overcoming.

At the beginning of this last half comes "the beast."

Rev. 13:2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sorry but tht is the sloppy conclusion proposed by covenant theology and preterism.

Not sloppy at all. I've read and reread this many times, and have, in fact, memorized it. I've posted on it numerous times and have given arguments for every single point. You just don't know me very well. Calling it "sloppy" only serves to "complicate" things in our discussion.

But when you look at the Olivert discourse carefully, you see the disciples asked Jesus three separate questions and Jesus gave three separate answers!

Yes, and all three questions were answered by Jesus within the Discourse.

When will the temple be destroyed (Answered in Luke 21:21-24 . He also in Luke spoke of signs in vses 9-11 that will happen in the undefined future! All of these have come to pass. Long after 34 AD

Jesus gave preliminary signs representing the buildup to the fall of the Temple. Obviously, they were all to take place in his generation, since the fall of the Temple took place in 7 AD.

Certainly, Jesus spoke of things that transcended his own generation. But they were dealing with things extraneous to the main subject, which was the fall of Jerusalem. Since the disciples were confused about how Jesus could say Jerusalem would fall, he explained to them that these things have to precede the coming of his Kingdom.

So there were two things going on, and not just one. 1st, he explained to them about the main subject that he introduced--the fall of the Temple. When? It would take place in their own generation, preceded by warning signs, like indications of Jewish corruption and signs of divine judgment for that corruption.

2nd, he indicated that instead of the Kingdom coming immediately there would be a long Jewish exile and punishment, preceding the coming of the Kingdom. As to when the Kingdom itself is coming, he would not say. He only said that preparation for it begins in our own lifetimes because what we do contributes to it.

What is the sign of His return: Mt. 24:27

What are the signs of the end of this age: Mt. 24:4-26

None of these things have happened nor can the allegorical hermeneutic twist these passages to force them to fit what jesus said. I was a covenant theology believer when I first got saved and it was only through intense study of SCripture and the varied theologies of the end times did I become 100% convinced that the dispensational eschatology is the best. It is not perfect, like all man made theologies have their flaws, but it does the least harm to Scripture than covenant and preterist theology does concerning the end times.

I'm not arguing for allegorical interpretation or covenant theology. And I'm not a Dispensationalist, although I do believe in a future restoration of Israel at the coming of Christ. I am, therefore, a futurist, but not in the mold of Dispensationalists.

 

[covenantee]

Not sloppy at all. I've read and reread this many times, and have, in fact, memorized it. I've posted on it numerous times and have given arguments for every single point. You just don't know me very well. Calling it "sloppy" only serves to "complicate" things in our discussion.

Yes, and all three questions were answered by Jesus within the Discourse.

Jesus gave preliminary signs representing the buildup to the fall of the Temple. Obviously, they were all to take place in his generation, since the fall of the Temple took place in 7 AD.

Certainly, Jesus spoke of things that transcended his own generation. But they were dealing with things extraneous to the main subject, which was the fall of Jerusalem. Since the disciples were confused about how Jesus could say Jerusalem would fall, he explained to them that these things have to precede the coming of his Kingdom.

So there were two things going on, and not just one. 1st, he explained to them about the main subject that he introduced--the fall of the Temple. When? It would take place in their own generation, preceded by warning signs, like indications of Jewish corruption and signs of divine judgment for that corruption.

2nd, he indicated that instead of the Kingdom coming immediately there would be a long Jewish exile and punishment, preceding the coming of the Kingdom. As to when the Kingdom itself is coming, he would not say. He only said that preparation for it begins in our own lifetimes because what we do contributes to it.

I'm not arguing for allegorical interpretation or covenant theology. And I'm not a Dispensationalist, although I do believe in a future restoration of Israel at the coming of Christ. I am, therefore, a futurist, but not in the mold of Dispensationalists.

In contrast to your Scriptural explanation, he is unable to explain the absurdity of dispensationalism's decapitated, orphaned, undetermined 70th week, or present any evidence from historical orthodox Christianity denying Christ's perfect complete fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.

Just two of the plethora of dispensationalism's delusions.

 

[David in NJ]

Yikes! There is a lot of confusion on these Christian forum sites. You are both wrong. BTW, why did you conceal who you were responding to? I'd like to know.

cc: @Ronald D Milam - See...

???

Please elaborate

 

[David in NJ]

Yikes! There is a lot of confusion on these Christian forum sites. You are both wrong. BTW, why did you conceal who you were responding to? I'd like to know.

cc: @Ronald D Milam - See...

YIKES is RIGHT = on your yikes - lol

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes but even the verse you quoted mentions wrath. There is a difference between the wrath of God and the great tribulation.

The wrath is on the unsaved and the great tribulation is on the saints. Stephen, Paul and the apostles are a part of the great multitude from every tribe tong and nation.

Even Paul in the verse you quoted mentions the Jews first which happened in 70AD

I quoted this:
Rom 2.8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

This is speaking of "distress" for those who "do evil." This is not speaking of only Christians going through great tribulation.

I also gave you the Olivet Discourse, and especially Luke 21, where Jesus describes "great distress" as coming upon the Jewish People as a form of punishment. This is not great tribulation only for the saints!

This appears to undo your argument that great tribulation is for the saints and wrath for the wicked. Great Tribulation is somewhat synonymous with Wrath in Jesus' theology and we should use the words just as he did. Christians are not under God's Wrath. But they do indeed go through tribulation of various kinds.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In contrast to your Scriptural explanation, he is unable to explain the absurdity of dispensationalism's decapitated, orphaned, undetermined 70th week, or present any evidence from historical orthodox Christianity denying Christ's perfect complete fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.

Just two of the plethora of dispensationalism's delusions.

We obviously agree on some of it and disagree on other parts of it. And that's okay.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I read your view that you think is post-trib. but it doesn't include the last half of the GT, thus it seems to me that you described Mid-Trib not Post-Trib.

That's because in my view there aren't "two halves" of the Reign of Antichrist. I do not call the Reign of Antichrist the "Great Tribulation." In my view the "Great Tribulation" is God's punishment visited upon the Jewish People in 70 AD and continuing until the end of the age. See Luke 21.23.

There is no basis for believing that the 70th Week of Daniel should be viewed as disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks and applied to some future 7 year period at the end of the age. And so, I don't believe in a future 7 year period at all.

Apart from this there would be no basis for connecting two of the 3.5 year periods together that are mentioned in the book of Revelation. There is nothing in the book of Revelation that remotely suggests it is Daniel's 70th Week, nor is there a 7 year period mentioned at all.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's because in my view there aren't "two halves" of the Reign of Antichrist. I do not call the Reign of Antichrist the "Great Tribulation." In my view the "Great Tribulation" is God's punishment visited upon the Jewish People in 70 AD and continuing until the end of the age. See Luke 21.23.

There is no basis for believing that the 70th Week of Daniel should be viewed as disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks and applied to some future 7 year period at the end of the age. And so, I don't believe in a future 7 year period at all.

Apart from this there would be no basis for connecting two of the 3.5 year periods together that are mentioned in the book of Revelation. There is nothing in the book of Revelation that remotely suggests it is Daniel's 70th Week, nor is there a 7 year period mentioned at all.

When reading the letter to the Church of Thyatira, it mentions great tribulation. That is well after the first century.

What do you believe is the interpretation of Romans 11 I mentioned.

 

[David in NJ]

That's because in my view there aren't "two halves" of the Reign of Antichrist. I do not call the Reign of Antichrist the "Great Tribulation." In my view the "Great Tribulation" is God's punishment visited upon the Jewish People in 70 AD and continuing until the end of the age. See Luke 21.23.

There is no basis for believing that the 70th Week of Daniel should be viewed as disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks and applied to some future 7 year period at the end of the age. And so, I don't believe in a future 7 year period at all.

Apart from this there would be no basis for connecting two of the 3.5 year periods together that are mentioned in the book of Revelation. There is nothing in the book of Revelation that remotely suggests it is Daniel's 70th Week, nor is there a 7 year period mentioned at all.

JESUS Said His elect will and must endure tribulation even during the Great Tribulation.

The GT is not the Wrath of God = Revelation makes that CLEAR

The GT is the wrath of satan upon this world = we are already in it and it will continue to build and gain momentum.

Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the Devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time....................................
And the Dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

[Randy Kluth]

JESUS Said His elect will and must endure tribulation even during the Great Tribulation.

As I said, and as you quoted me, I DO NOT accept that the "Great Tribulation" was identified by Jesus in his Olivet Discourse as a future 7 Week period, nor as a fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week. As I noted in the Scripture reference, Jesus identified the Great Tribulation, or the Great Distress, as Israel's punishment, beginning in 70 AD and ending with his Return and Kingdom.

There is no question that Jesus said Christians will suffer persecution and various kinds of tribulation. But the "Great Tribulation" he specifically described in Luke 21 wass more about God's punishment upon the Jewish People for rejecting him as Messiah and for accepting false Messiahs who tell them what they want to hear and ignore their gross sins.

It's utterly amazing to me how Christians regularly ignore this point--it is blatantly obvious that I'm right. This is exactly what Jesus said! They just want to hold onto the popular futurist narrative that allows them to make many predictions about the future--something Jesus discouraged.

The GT is not the Wrath of God = Revelation makes that CLEAR

The GT is God's *punishment* or *wrath* against the Jewish People. The Olivet Discourse makes that CLEAR!

But you are conflating two different Scripture passages, which is never a good thing to do if the subjects are different. The tribulation saints go through during the reign of Antichrist is *not* God's wrath, it is true. But Jesus was not speaking of the reign of Antichrist when he said Great Tribulation was coming upon the Jewish People in his generation. The context in the Olivet Discourse is quite different from the context you speak of in the book of Revelation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

When reading the letter to the Church of Thyatira, it mentions great tribulation. That is well after the first century.

What do you believe is the interpretation of Romans 11 I mentioned.

The term "great tribulation" is generic and is not being used as a proper noun as if THE Great Tribulation is a specific period at the end of history in the Bible. The only biblical use of the term as a Proper Noun refers to the generation in which the Jewish People are exiled and persecuted throughout the NT period, also known as the "Jewish Diaspora." The future period biblically described in the Revelation as a persecution of the saints might be called "the reign of Antichrist."

In Luke 21 Jesus very specifically explained that this "Great Distress" was a Jewish Punishment designed to keep them in exile throughout the current age. It is a period that Jesus certainly indicated would mean suffering for Jewish believers, as well, but for different reasons. Unbelieving Jews and pagan Gentiles both would persecute Jewish believers. And Jewish believers would lose their homeland not because of their own sins but only because they shared the fate brought on by their own unbelieving Jewish brethren.

The church at Philadelphia suffered the risk of tribulation in the same way the Jewish believers did. But they were exempted from it, by circumstance and not by a supposed "Rapture of the Church." In Thyatira, Jezebel and her fellow rebels were to suffer "great tribulation" in the same way rebellious Jews were to suffer under the Romans for their own rebellion.

I'm assuming you were speaking of Revelation 11, and not Romans 11? Rev 11 brings to an end a single large vision--the Scroll vision. It begins with Jesus opening the Scroll and ends with the opening of the last Seal, which involved the blowing of 7 Trumpets.

The 7th Trumpet shows the Kingdom of Chrst coming. The book of Revelation then continues on with more visions describing similar things. The multiple visions of the book of Revelation do not depict a strict chronological sequence, but only a narrative sequence because John has the various things explained to him one after another in a single revelation. The visions overlap each other, describing the same history leading up to the Return of Christ.

But the narrative does build a crescendo, and that kind of language is often mistaken for a chronological sequence. The prophecies of the Bible were not designed to produce speculations about the timing of prophecies. If there was an immediate need, prophecy was urgent. But if prophecy was about the distant future it was to create a current spiritual attitude, aligning with our hope--not elicit prophetic calendars and clever interpretations of apocalyptic symbols.

 

[David in NJ]

As I said, and as you quoted me, I DO NOT accept that the "Great Tribulation" was identified by Jesus in his Olivet Discourse as a future 7 Week period, nor as a fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week. As I noted in the Scripture reference, Jesus identified the Great Tribulation, or the Great Distress, as Israel's punishment, beginning in 70 AD and ending with his Return and Kingdom.

There is no question that Jesus said Christians will suffer persecution and various kinds of tribulation. But the "Great Tribulation" he specifically described in Luke 21 wass more about God's punishment upon the Jewish People for rejecting him as Messiah and for accepting false Messiahs who tell them what they want to hear and ignore their gross sins.

It's utterly amazing to me how Christians regularly ignore this point--it is blatantly obvious that I'm right. This is exactly what Jesus said! They just want to hold onto the popular futurist narrative that allows them to make many predictions about the future--something Jesus discouraged.

The GT is God's *punishment* or *wrath* against the Jewish People. The Olivet Discourse makes that CLEAR!

But you are conflating two different Scripture passages, which is never a good thing to do if the subjects are different. The tribulation saints go through during the reign of Antichrist is *not* God's wrath, it is true. But Jesus was not speaking of the reign of Antichrist when he said Great Tribulation was coming upon the Jewish People in his generation. The context in the Olivet Discourse is quite different from the context you speak of in the book of Revelation.

Good Morning and DWELL on this Today = 1 Peter 4:17 & Revelation 3:14-22

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation.
I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!
You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those I love I rebuke and discipline.
Therefore be earnest and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”