The only source of life and the fallacy of a 'dead' human spirit being 'quickened from death'

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 1 Thes. 5:23, Paul was speaking to saved born again Christians, not unsaved people who did not HAVE the Holy Spirit.

While Adam was in the Garden he was NOT an eternally saved soul at any time. He was simply a created mortal being, having only innocence, with no knowledge of good or evil, until the day he ate of the "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Do what you want with KJV 1Thes. 5:23.
In your determination to prove that man was given an Immortal Eternal Soul by God, all that you are proving is that paganism is truth, and not Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
[23]And G1161 the very G846 God G2316 of peace G1515 sanctify G37 you G5209 wholly; G3651 and G2532 I pray God your G5216 whole G3648 spirit G4151 and G2532 soul G5590 and G2532 body G4983 be preserved G5083 blameless G274 unto G1722 the coming G3952 of our G2257 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ. G5547

"spirit" G4151
Strong's Number - G4151
Greek: πνεῦμα
Transliteration: pneuma
Pronunciation: pnyoo'-mah
Definition: From G4154; a current of air that is breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit that is (human) the rational soul (by implication) vital principle mental disposition etc. or (superhuman) an angel daemon or (divine) God Christ´s spirit the Holy spirit : - ghost life spirit (-ual -ually) mind. Compare G5590 .
KJV Usage: Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x), misc (21x).
Occurs: 385. [See Acts 2:2]
In verses: 350

"soul" G5590 [Hebrew H5315- "nephesh"- animal life] Gen. 2:7.
Strong's Number - G5590
Greek: ψυχή
Transliteration: psuchē
Pronunciation: psoo-khay'
Definition: From G5594; breath that is **by implication- spirit abstractly or concretely the animal sentient principle only;
thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151 **which is the rational and **immortal soul; and on the other hand from G2222 which is mere vitality even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315] [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily) life mind soul + us + you.
KJV Usage: soul (58x), life (40x), mind (3x), heart (1x), heartily (with G1537) (1x), not tr (2x).
Occurs: 105
In verses: 95
**My comment on the above:
There is no such thing as an Immortal soul. Such a thought is only being implied by Strongs.
The concept of an "immortal, eternally living soul" is from Paganism, as I have shown in post #118. Thousands of years ago, that false concept has been deceptively applied to Christian understanding and traditions by the Roman Catholic Church.

"body" G4983
Strong's Number - G4983
Greek: σῶμα
Transliteration: sōma
Pronunciation: so'-mah
Definition: From G4982; the body (as a sound whole) used in a very wide application literally or figuratively: - bodily body slave.
KJV Usage: body (144x), bodily (1x), slave (1x).
Occurs: 146
In verses: 122

You sure go to great lengths to deny what 1 Thessalonians 5:23 clearly indicates, which is that human beings are made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. It'd be much better if you just accepted what 1 Thessalonians 5:23 indicates and adjust your doctrine accordingly instead of trying to twist the verse to fit your doctrine.

 

[Earburner]

You sure go to great lengths to deny what 1 Thessalonians 5:23 clearly indicates, which is that human beings are made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. It'd be much better if you just accepted what 1 Thessalonians 5:23 indicates and adjust your doctrine accordingly instead of trying to twist the verse to fit your doctrine.

Either you are forgetting, or you are ignorant of the fact that the belief of an Immortal Eternal soul did not originate from God, but rather through the long history of Paganism, beginning in Babylon upto the Greeks, namely Plato. From there, the RCC has jammed it down everyone's throats, making it to be a Christian belief, through its doctrines and traditions of men.

Listen closely, there is NOTHING spiritual or eternal about anyone who does not HAVE the Spirit of Christ. They became a living soul upon creation and/or birth, being equal to that of an "animal life/soul" (Heb.- H5315- nephesh).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Either you are forgetting, or you are ignorant of the fact that the belief of an Immortal Eternal soul did not originate from God, but rather through the long history of Paganism, beginning in Babylon upto the Greeks, namely Plato.

Nonsense. You are being very foolish here. Paul made it very clear that human beings have a body, a soul and a spirit. John saw the souls of bodily dead people (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4). Nowhere does scripture teach that our souls can die. Instead of addressing this, you foolishly deny what 1 Thessalonians 5:23 so clearly indicates by denying that human beings have a soul at all, let alone an eternal soul. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say! Leave this Plato nonsense out of it.

From their, the RCC has jammed it down everyone's throats, making it to be a Christian belief, through its doctrines and traditions of men.

The RCC believes that Jesus died and rose again from the dead. Does that mean He didn't die and rise again from the dead? Stop these ridiculous arguments that bring Plato and the RCC into the discussion and stick to scripture.

Listen closely, there is NOTHING spiritual or eternal about anyone who does not HAVE the Spirit of Christ. They became a living soul upon creation and/or birth, being equal to that of an "animal life/soul" (Heb.- H5315- nephesh).

All people have a body, a soul and a spirit. That is what Paul clearly indicated. Hebrews 4:12 talks about the word of God being so sharp that it can even divide the soul and spirit. But, here you are denying that human beings have a soul, thereby contradicting scripture.

 

[Earburner]

Nonsense. You are being very foolish here. Paul made it very clear that human beings have a body, a soul and a spirit. John saw the souls of bodily dead people (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4). Nowhere does scripture teach that our souls can die. Instead of addressing this, you foolishly deny what 1 Thessalonians 5:23 so clearly indicates by denying that human beings have a soul at all, let alone an eternal soul. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say! Leave this Plato nonsense out of it.


The RCC believes that Jesus died and rose again from the dead. Does that mean He didn't die and rise again from the dead? Stop these ridiculous arguments that bring Plato and the RCC into the discussion and stick to scripture.


All people have a body, a soul and a spirit. That is what Paul clearly indicated. Hebrews 4:12 talks about the word of God being so sharp that it can even divide the soul and spirit. But, here you are denying that human beings have a soul, thereby contradicting scripture.

Lol...I'm being foolish?? When did you revert back to the days of Mose's ignorance of how he understood what "the breath of life" was.

By his comparison in KJV Gen. 2:7 and 7:22, calling a living soul to be animal life (nephesh-H5315), that is a good estimation of his understanding, that a human soul and an animal soul all breathed the same identical thing through their nostrils.

What was it that they all breathed together?
1. the very Holy Spirit of God?
2. Oxygenated air from the earth's atmosphere?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol...I'm being foolish??

That's what I said and I meant it 100%. I think I was pretty clear.

When did you revert back to the days of Mose's ignorance of how he understood what "the breath of life" was.

By his comparison in KJV Gen. 2:7 and 7:22, calling a living soul to be animal life (nephesh-H5315), that is a good estimation of his understanding, that a human soul and an animal soul all breathed the same identical thing through their nostrils.

What was it that they all breathed together?
1. the very Holy Spirit of God?
2. Oxygenated air from the earth's atmosphere?

You continue to not address my arguments, so why should I address yours? You refuse to acknowledge the fact that human beings have a body, a soul and a spirit, as verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 indicate. As long as you continue to do that, you will fail to see the truth of this matter. The body needs oxygen to live, but the soul and spirit do not. John saw the souls of people who were bodily dead (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4) and portrayed them as having consciousness, but you foolishly refuse to acknowledge this.

 

[Earburner]

That's what I said and I meant it 100%. I think I was pretty clear.


You continue to not address my arguments, so why should I address yours? You refuse to acknowledge the fact that human beings have a body, a soul and a spirit, as verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 indicate. As long as you continue to do that, you will fail to see the truth of this matter. The body needs oxygen to live, but the soul and spirit do not. John saw the souls of people who were bodily dead (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4) and portrayed them as having consciousness, but you foolishly refuse to acknowledge this.

Why are you getting argumentative over the simple descriptions in Gen. 2:7 and 7:22?

Ezk. 18
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

How does a soul die, if it doesn't breathe Oxygen? Therefore, since a soul can die and most definitely does, it is apparent that a soul does not have life from the very Holy Spirit of God, of which is the vehicle of Eternal Life to us-ward.
Which brings us straight back to Gen. 7:22.

As for the book of Rev., we must always acknowledge that the words are from God the Father Himself, noting that much of it is in symbolic and prophetic language from His Eternal mind who speaks in the past, present and future all at the same time, of which none of us can do.

Rev. 6:9-11 is a direct reference to the faithful of Israel, who lived and died "under the altar" of the OC. of which DID NOT ever receive the Promise of the Holy Spirit, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's innocent blood. This is primarily WHY the 12 tribes are described in Rev. 7:5-8.
If it is for you to know at this time, by the Lord's Holy Spirit within you, you will understand that Rev. 6:9-11 is describing those who were of the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel past.
We have all scripturally seen them in Mat. 27:50-54, immediately after the mortal death of Jesus on the cross.

In Malachi 3:16, we all can see that God held his Promise to all the names of them that He "remembered" of OC. Israel. Now we can truly understand why the repentant thief on the cross said: "Remember me when you come into your kingdom". Prior to that point, of Jesus' death and resurrection, NO ONE ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. No, not even Moses, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's blood.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why are you getting argumentative over the simple descriptions in Gen. 2:7 and 7:22?

Ezk. 18
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

How does a soul die, if it doesn't breath Oxygen? Therefore, since a soul can die and most definitely does, it is apparent that a soul does not have life from the very Holy Spirit of God, of which is the vehicle of Eternal Life to us-ward.

I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that human beings are made up of body, soul and spirit, as scripture teaches in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. Until you understand that, you will continue to believe the falsehood that you are promoting by claiming that a person can't have consciousness without oxygen. Only the body needs oxygen to live. The soul and spirit of a person do not need oxygen in order to live. Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). That shows that there is a part of us besides our bodies that goes to be with the Lord when we die. Surely, we don't go to be with the Lord in heaven when we physically/bodily die only to just sleep there.

 

[Earburner]

I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that human beings are made up of body, soul and spirit, as scripture teaches in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. Until you understand that, you will continue to believe the falsehood that you are promoting by claiming that a person can't have consciousness without oxygen. Only the body needs oxygen to live. The soul and spirit of a person do not need oxygen in order to live. Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). That shows that there is a part of us besides our bodies that goes to be with the Lord when we die. Surely, we don't go to be with the Lord in heaven when we physically/bodily die only to just sleep there.

I don't understand your contention over the issue of me not explaining 1 Thes. 5:23, when in fact I utilized the Strongs Concordance as a reference for the words you are focused on:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Please see my post #120.

Surely you are aware that Paul was speaking to born again Christians and not those who DO NOT HAVE the Spirit of Christ.

As for Heb. 4:12, Paul is addressing how the word of God is more quick, powerful and sharper than everything that is mortal.
4[12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul [G5590] and spirit [G4151], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts [of the human brain] and intents of the heart [human will of the natural man].

For whatever a man intends to humanly will, it must first be thought out by the thoughts of the human brain.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't understand your contention over the issue of me not explaining 1 Thes. 5:23, when in fact I utilized the Strongs Concordance as a reference for the words you are focused on:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Please see my post #120.

I already read that post and I honestly think it's a complete joke and a blatant twisting of the text. The verse clearly refers to 3 different parts of a human being. The spirit, the soul and the body. The verse is very straightforward.

Surely you are aware that Paul was speaking to born again Christians and not those who DO NOT HAVE the Spirit of Christ.

As for Heb. 4:12, Paul is addressing how the word of God is more quick, powerful and sharper than everything that is mortal.
4[12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul [G5590] and spirit [G4151], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts [of the human brain] and intents of the heart [human will of the natural man].

For whatever a man intends to humanly will, it must first be thought out by the thoughts of the human brain.

When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit it refers specifically to the Holy Spirit (imagine that). If Hebrews 4:12 was referring to the Holy Spirit, then the verse would say "even to the dividing asunder of soul and the Holy Spirit". But, it does not. No translation translates it that way, but you apparently think you have more discernment than every Bible translator. You don't. It's referring to the soul and spirit of man.

 

[Zao is life]

IF Moses and Elijah were both taken ALIVE [ZAO] IN THEIR BODIES to heaven THEN they were ALIVE [ZAO] when they appeared with Jesus

AND

they were both given eternal LIFE [ZOE] IN CHRIST - EVEN BEFORE He died and rose again.

- but there is A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB - WHO HAD ALL D-I-E-D AND WERE STILL D-E-A-D when Jesus told the Sadducess they would RISE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD because God is not the God of the D-E-A-D but of those who are A-L-I-V-E.

God is not the God of D-E-A-T-H but of L-I-F-E [ZOE] and of THOSE WHO ARE A-L-I-V-E.

God BREATHED L-I-F-E [ZOE] into Adam, and THAT IS WHY Adam became a L-I-V-I-N-G [ZAO] soul.

AND THE SAME GOES FOR LAZARETH WHEN JESUS TOLD MARTHA HE WOULD RISE AGAIN FROM THE D-E-A-D AND WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS - EVEN THOUGH HE D-I-E, that one who believes in Jesus would L-I-V-E [ZAO] again because JESUS IS the RESURRECTION and the L-I-F-E [ZOE].

Mainstream church theology conflates being alive [zao] forever with the life [zoe] that is the source of being alive [zao] where Jesus spoke to the Sadducees, and where He spoke to Martha.