Sabbath Keeping - I would have been stoned

[Button]

Hey Button, thanks for your reply....
I am confident that the mods here will put the brakes on any thread that gets ugly. There is no reason for Christians to get personal over any topic. So civil discussion is beneficial for all truth seekers, who can weigh up all the evidence, for and against, and make up their own minds about things....without a personal slanging match.

If Jesus didn’t die, the ransom is not paid and we are still condemned....

The flesh did appear to die.
However,if you accept that Jesus was God in flesh, you must know God cannot be killed.

This is partly why Jesus said his enemies cannot take his life from him. He gives it up freely.

If you have done any research into what “redemption” meant for a Jew, you will understand that to redeem something or someone, a set price was required. If someone fell into debt, they were obligated to pay it off or to go into service to the lender until it was paid. But if a benevolent benefactor came along and generously paid the debt for them, they were free from their debt.

Christ’s redemption of the human race also had a set price.... a sinless life was lost for all of Adam’s children, and only a sinless life offered in exchange would cancel the debt. Sin is a debt. Jesus paid it with his sinless life. If he didn’t die the same death as Adam, then redemption was not accomplished.

God doesn’t do that....he doesn’t ever pretend to do anything......he sent his beloved son to die in our behalf to pay for a debt that was not our fault. What love there was in that gesture from both the Father and the son, prefigured when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac....just as he was about to take his life, God stopped him and provided a ram instead. Showing us that Abraham’s faith was so solid that he was prepared to do the unthinkable to obey the command of his God, and it also showed the willingness of the son to be sacrificed, when neither he nor his father, understood why they were asked to do that. It was Paul who explained Abraham’s reasoning. (Heb 11:17-19) His Faith was based on the assured expectation or promise, of a God who cannot lie. His actions were an evident demonstration of a reality he could not see. (Heb 11:1)

Many of his disciples had their faith confirmed when God raised his son....even Jesus’ own siblings became believers after that...which was a testament to his humanity, as there were no miracles or any indication of his perfect sinless nature before his baptism, when he received the Holy Spirit and began to astound the people with his miracles. His neighbors who had seen him grow up were hard pressed to accept him as Messiah....he was just “the carpenter’s son”.

What is interesting is the apostle’s perception of what he meant when he spoke of returning to his Father and going to heaven to “prepare a place for them”, because Jewish belief was so ingrained in them that none of that made sense to them until Pentecost.

As Jesus was ascending to heaven, they were perplexed because Jewish expectation was entirely earthly... their Messiah was going to be a man, born of a virgin... and in God’s due time, he would become a strong leader of the Jewish people and liberate them from their oppression. They just weren’t sure how it was all going to play out......so they asked him....
“Lord are you restoring the Kingdom to Israel at this time?” ( Acts 1:6)....basically asking was he going to carry out their earthly expectations at that time? But he told them to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit so that they would then grasp the meaning of many of his teachings that had a spiritual application rather than an earthly one.
At Pentecost, all that changed and by receiving the spirit, they knew exactly why they had been chosen....what their “calling” meant, and where they were going. (Rev 20:6)

That is true....for the “saints/ elect/chosen ones” man’s ideology is not the motivating force....it is God’s spirit that moves them to go out to the people with the “good news of the Kingdom”....something Jesus said would eventually go out into “the most distant part of the earth”.

No longer a localised Middle Easter religion, Jesus confessed to the Samaritan woman....a wider location for God’s worship....
“The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:19-24 NASB)

Revealing for the first time a wider application for God’s true worship....he indicated that neither of the sacred mountains held in reverence by Jews (Zion) and Samaritans (Gerazim) was gong to be the seat of God’s worship.....Christianity was to spread out into the whole world as Jesus said with regard to the preaching activity he commanded. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14) The witness given was to “the entire inhabited earth”....to “all the nations” before “the end” would come.

Unfortunately Jesus also foretold that an apostasy would take place and that “weeds” of false Christianity would be sown by the devil in an attempt to undermine the “spirit and truth” given to his chosen ones. They would be offered another “truth” and sadly the ones who accepted that flawed theology would be in the majority. (Matt 7:13-14) This would lead to an awful declaration from the “Lord” that they claimed as their own....” I NEVER KNEW YOU”. (Matt 7:21-23)

A sobering reality in today’s world, where “Christianity” is “Christendom”.....a fractured, disunited rabble pretending to be what it isn’t...and never was.

It's why Jesus said,we will know the truth and the truth shall set us free.

Fracturing the wholesome truth of Christ began in Nicea.

However,men,doctrine,denominations,
churches,do not save. Jesus saves.

Many worship the Bible. That's a mistake.

 

[quietthinker]

If God does not change,how do we reconcile that God of Moses is God who was Jesus on Earth?

Is it possible that not every voice Moses heard was from God...although Moses thought so?

 

[Button]

Is it possible that not every voice Moses heard was from God...although Moses thought so?

If Moses was God's instrument,I don't think God would allow Moses to be misled by false voices.

 

[quietthinker]

Great question!

The Chosen did a great job explaining it. If you read Luke 4, where Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (one of my favorite verses, BTW’) you’ll notice he stops at the first half of v2. In the show, the rabbi asks why did he stop reading at ‘the time of the Lord’s favor has come’? Why didn’t he continue with:

‘and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion—to bestow on them a crown of beauty?’​

The fictional Jesus explained it is not time for vengeance; it’s time for favor.

The way I reconcile is parse OT law with NT grace. Before we receive grace, we need to understand our depravity. I personally believe humans also need, not just an understanding of God’s divine justice, but also the history of men trying to satisfy that divine standard on their own power, which should be very humbling.

Most of the OT is the history of man rebelling, failing to submit to God. The cycle repeats for 1,000‘s of years. A rational mind should conclude 2 things:

1. It’s hopeless; pointless to try to meet God’s standard as it is not in our nature.
2. Humility is needed to ask for mercy.

I’ve often said the human mind cannot easily accept the simplicity of the NT. We want TO DO something. Climb up Mt. Sinai. Conquer the infidels. Prophecy God’s word. I’m convinced HUMILITY is the first divine attribute. Without humility, we cannot accept God’s simple terms. Sure, we all want a rescuer in our back pocket, a heavenly 911. Only a few are humble enough to give control/lordship of our lives.

I would ask, is divine justice similar to man's justice? If it is I can understand why men gravitate in droves to this justice (payback)
If it is not the same, then what does it look like?

If mercy and truth is hardly to be found amongst men because it does not intrinsically resonate yet the scriptures tell us that God is abounding in mercy and truth, what does that look like?

We say we have good news to tell yet only dish out advice and it revolves around what to do. Doesn't that tell us that we have confused the two?

The jews asked Jesus, what shall we do to do the work of God? Jesus told them, the work of God is to believe on him who he has sent.
I wonder what that means?

 

[quietthinker]

If Moses was God's instrument,I don't think God would allow Moses to be misled by false voices.

If we are God's instruments does that mean God would not allow us to be mislead by false voices?

 

[Button]

If we are God's instruments does that mean God would not allow us to be mislead by false voices?

Only God knows.

 

[Adventageous]

The SDA peoples really hate the Book of Hebrews as throws a monkey wrench in their favorite false doctrine

Oh puhleeeease. I wrote an entire chapter on Hebrews in my book - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Perhaps you might read it and learn what a real Seventh-day Adventist knows / thinks / demonstrates about Hebrews.

 

[Adventageous]

God's not the One that changed. The old covenant was taken away by Jesus to establish the New Covenant that God told Israel He would bring forth

The problem you currently have is, you think the Ten Commandments are the 'old covenant', when they clearly aren't in the contexts they are given in. I also address that in the book as well.

 

[Adventageous]

If God does not change,how do we reconcile that God of Moses is God who was Jesus on Earth?

The "change" is referring to His eternal unchanging Character / Name.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD [JEHOVAH], I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.​

In other words, the eternal covenant of God in Christ Jesus is not changing, but more to the point, God's character in His mercy toward sinners is unchanging, as His Name [JEHOVAH] is, so is JEHOVAH.

Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.​

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,​

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.​

​

Exodus 20;5;p - "... for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"​

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.​

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.​

The eternal Name of God, the eternal Character of God, the eternal Law of God, the eternal Promises of God are the same thing. Taking on the nature of humanity, didn't change the Son of the Father in character.

​

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

​

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.​

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.​

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.​

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.​

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​

 

[Adventageous]

And with the changing of the priesthood, God’s Word tells us there is also a change of the law.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Yes, I have a chapter on that text also (only a single page, I wonder if you will read it also, or not) - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The "law" of Hebrews 7:12, in the entire context is the "law" concerning priests/priesthood, a carnal law, not anything to do with the spiritual Law of the Ten Commandments (Rom. 7:7,14 KJB). See the chart on the linked page for demonstration in evidence from the text of scripture itself.

 

[Adventageous]

Jesus saves.

Reminds me of this hymn! :) - Baptist Hymnal 1991 581. We have heard the joyful sound | Hymnary.org

 

[Adventageous]

However,if you accept that Jesus was God in flesh, you must know God cannot be killed.

This is partly why Jesus said his enemies cannot take his life from him. He gives it up freely.

A. J., being what she presently is, does not accept those terms, but has entirely differing terms because of her present worldview.

That worldview is in error, but A. J. cannot at the moment see it as such. She does not, yet, at the moment, see the end from the beginning of the view she presently holds on the subject.

She believes a creature can die in the place of another and it pay the ransom (& penalty for sin), when such cannot possibly do so, as set by the standards of the word of God itself.

I doubt A. J. will respond to this reply, seeing as I think she still has me blocked / ignored for some slight she has perceived in her own mind for some event in the distant past, and is still unforgiving about such, though if I asked, I do not think she would even remember what it was she is blocking me for. This is not to slight her, but I do think it concerning, for one who claims to be presenting a Gospel of forgiveness, reconciliation, redemption, &c. (I could be, and hope to be shown otherwise about such.)

Never-the-less, if you have any questions about that difference in A.J.'s position and what you have said, please ask.

 

[rockytopva]

I have no problem with the Law as it is said...

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. - Hebrews 10:1

And the Apostle Paul said...

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. - 2 Timothy 3:16

It is a good thing to get into and read the Old Testament. Just don't base the salvation on it... In which can only come through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Knowing the Holy Scripture is good... But compelling others to observe the law not enough to make one perfect...

But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised... - Galatians 2:3

It could be argued that Titus was just as guilty as those not worshipping on Saturday. But... One can argue for decades over these points on not get anywhere with God.

 

[Adventageous]

I have no problem with the Law as it is said...

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. - Hebrews 10:1

And the Apostle Paul said...

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. - 2 Timothy 3:16

It is a good thing to get into and read the Old Testament. Just don't base the salvation on it... In which can only come through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Knowing the Holy Scripture is good... But compelling others to observe the law not enough to make one perfect...

But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised... - Galatians 2:3

It could be argued that Titus was just as guilty as those not worshipping on Saturday. But... One can argue for decades over these points on not get anywhere with God.

That is a confusion of the word "law" in those contexts. It cannot actually be argued (ref. Titus & Sabbath), and anyone who attempts to do so, will be shown that they do not understand the scriptures they cite in evidence.

The physical circumsicion (ref. Titus) is "carnal", having nothing to do with the spiritual (Rom. 7:7,14 KJB) Ten Commandments.

"the law" in Heb. 10, refers to the Torah (5 books written by Moses at God's behest), not the Ten Commandments, written by God (not Moses) without Moses. The Ten Commandments are not ever shadow, but always light (Pro. 6:23; Isa. 8:20, &c.). The only "shadow" dealt with the carnal things, which represented spiritual things, such as physical circumcision, physical death of sheep & goats, &c.

When Paul speaks of "wise unto salvation" it is in the context of "salvation", which is to be saved from (not in) sin (and sin is the transgression of the Ten Commandments; Rom. 7:7,14; Jam. 1:25, 2:8-13 (Psa. 119:44-45); 1 Jhn. 3:4 KJB). Transgress even one of those Ten, is to transgress all 10 (as may be demonstrated ad nauseum; Jam. 2:10)

In technicality, "Saturday" is Roman time (midnight to midnight), and only partially crosses over with actual Bible Sabbath (sundown to sundown, aka Friday evening to Saturday evening). Perhaps people might get this right, someday, by God's grace.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I have often thought, especially as I burn my own firewood.... That I would have been that guy!

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. - Numbers 15

The Sabbath rest typifies the true Israelite’s rest from the works of sin (Heb 4:3, 9–10). The presumptuous act recorded here where a man deliberately breaks the Sabbath epitomises the root cause of Israel’s failure. It amounts to a rejection of Yahweh’s appointed means of salvation.

What is challenging is the future unfulfilled prophecy of Zech 13

Zechariah 13:3 “And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the LORD.’ And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.

There will be such revulsion against error in that Day, when the law goes forth from Zion and people everywhere seek God in truth (Isa 2:2–4) that a person’s closest relatives will be the first to accuse and execute a false teacher. The principle laid down in the Law will then be restored (Deut. 13:6–9).

I am almost certain that many in this forum would reject such a prophecy or even the prospect of such a future time. Yet this is precisely the awe and wonder of Christ’s coming, to establish his Father’s righteousness in the earth and judge falsehood.

 

[Wrangler]

Sadly, you are deflecting from answering the question put to us by asking your own question. No answer to

If God does not change,how do we reconcile that God of Moses is God who was Jesus on Earth?

I would ask, is divine justice similar to man's justice?

Of course God's justice is similar to man's justice. A is A. Mystics presume the supernatural is altogether different from our natural experiences - despite Scripture telling us otherwise. Psalm 23. Revelation 21:16 They even presume words themselves have special, unknowable meanings, such as using quotes or qualifying unqualified words, such as divine justice or man's justice. Divine apple juice v man's apple juice. Purity of a thing does not make it a different thing.

You constantly come from a place of ignorance and make Appeals to Ignorance. Over and over again Scripture tells us how we are to KNOW things:

Ezekiel 33:29 Then they will know that I am the LORD.​

Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives;​

John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life.​

John 16:3 when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth​

* Not man's truth​

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.​

You always undermine that confidence we are to have that comes from knowing. You introduce doubt. Why do you do that?

believe on him who he has sent.
I wonder what that means?

Another deflection. Again, try answering the question put to us.

If God does not change,how do we reconcile that God of Moses is God who was Jesus on Earth?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Then they will weep and mourn, for no one buys their merchandise any longer (Rev. 18:11).

@Button, it is my prayer that a time will soon come when all the dogma taught by Christendom over the past two thousand years is cast down...when the Lord Jesus Christ speaks words (two edge sword) of such power that men and women are stopped in their tracks. Those who willingly deceived, and those who embraced their lies, will weep and mourn, and only a few, by comparison, will fall at his feet and plead, “Teach me, Lord”, though possibly too late.

There are spiritual merchants who have grown wealthy by trading in the “bodies and souls of men” (Rev 18:13). They symbolize the clergy of Rome and the councils from which much of today’s false dogma has arisen. The antitype of the Canaanites, whose very name means “traders.” Such figures will be excluded from the House of Yahweh in the age to come (Zech. 14:21). Notably, the RSV renders the closing words: “There shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.”

Hillsong in Australia is a case in point: Brian Houston has amassed an est of $10 million through merchandising a false gospel.

Brian Houston net worth

You only need to watch pay-TV to see prosperity gospel preachers flying their private jets from city to city.

And then consider the Vatican and its wealth, estimated at $15 billion in financial assets managed in part through the Administration of the Patrimony of the Apostolic See, which oversees roughly $2.7 billion annually.

To claim a Master who owned nothing but the clothes on his back, I believe Christendom is in for a very rough time! Many will be expecting salvation, only to discover that they must either learn the original Gospel or face the grave.

 

[shepherdsword]

Is it possible that not every voice Moses heard was from God...although Moses thought so?

Moses didn't hear just "voices". God spoke with him face to face.

Ex 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Perhaps you might read it and learn what a real Seventh-day Adventist knows / thinks / demonstrates about Hebrews.

Regardless, they spin what God says in His Word to make it appear the Lord wants Christians to keep part of the Old Testament law while they ignore what the sabbath was created for the in the first place and fail to acknowledge that the rest born again believers received in Christ Jesus is far superior than what the SDA are stuck with due to their cult doctrine.

Yes, I have a chapter on that text also (only a single page, I wonder if you will read it

Thanks but no thanks.

I don't sit under false doctrine

The problem you currently have is, you think the Ten Commandments are the 'old covenant'

9 of the 10 commandments are repeated in the New Covenant under the L:aw of Christ and the 4 commandment has been upgraded to God's people being at rest IN Christ enjoying the peace Jesus provides which is far superior to anything the people in the old covenant could ever possibly experience.

But by all means you do you and continue trying to gain access to the inferior rest the old covenant believers had and reject abiding in Christ with all the benefits that provides God's actual Children

I also address that in the book as well.

Thanks but no thanks.

I don't sit under cult doctrine

Yes, I have a chapter on that text also (only a single page, I wonder if you will read it

Thanks but no thanks.

I don't sit under cult doctrine

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. - Hebrews 10:1

Why follow a shadow rather than follow the real thing... Jesus?

The good things to come spoken of in Hebrews 10:1 are here, so it's time to ditch the shadow and walk with the Lord,.

In technicality, "Saturday" is Roman time (midnight to midnight), and only partially crosses over with actual Bible Sabbath (sundown to sundown, aka Friday evening to Saturday evening).

Funny how Jesus and His writings thru the Apostles instructs NO ONE to observe your Saturday sabbath and there are no teachings in the New Covenant concerning repercussions for those that don't observe your Saturday sabbath

If it was God's Will for Christians to observe your Saturday sabbath then Jesus would have commanded His followers to do so either directly in the Gospels or thru His teachings that came forth thru the writings of His Apostles in the New Testament.

It's not there and you know it's not there and yet you continue using great swelling words to try and deceive others in to believing we are required to follow something that the Lord and His Apostles never taught all while claiming superior knowledge and intellect that we can all read about in your book!

 

[Button]

Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath because he was God who gave it.

In the New Testament he takes the Sadducees and Pharisees to task as being those who put the law above everything in order to sustain and enforce their authority over the people.

Jesus showed what the Sabbath was. Not meant to go about our day as usual but to serve God and his people.

If a lamb were trapped in the rocks,of course you'd rescue it if it occurred on the Sabbath.
Each lamb is precious and pleading for help when in danger.

But the law enforcement at the temple said,no.

And they were wrong.

Jesus healed people on the Sabbath. What better day than to have God's power and mercy at work on the day God made for man to utilize that power through faith?

What isn't in scripture is God switching the day he made for man to Sunday.

The Sun's day of worship in pagan Romes pantheon of God's worship. The Sun's day.

God didn't make that a day of worship. Pagans did.