Do the Ten Commandments still apply under the new covenant today?

[Grailhunter]

youre funny

Thanks, not everyone gets my humor.
Have ya heard the one about the goat and a Jehovah's Witness and a transvestite in a bar?
But still give me a Jewish-Christian writer.

 

[GodsGrace]

They were doing the same thing because they wanted the Jews to accept Yeshua, so they were wanting to establish a connection. Then again notice they do not bring up the point that the prophecies indicated that the Messiah would be human and take out their oppressors.

Well, a pastor once said that if the history of the NT is a conspiracy,
it's the most well-planned and intricate conspiracy of all time.

I believe the writers quoted the OT because they saw Jesus there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not at all it just that you believe if He is not God he cannot be God.
God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son. Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh. He will always be the Son of Yahweh and in Heaven sitting on a throne to the right of Yahweh.

I believe Jesus is God because that is what the Apostles taught.
And because the early church right after the Apostles also taught that Jesus is God.

I'd say that they know better what the Apostles taught than some denomination or other from sprang up some 200 years ago.

I'll post the following again:


Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

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[GodsGrace]

@Grailhunter

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22

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[GodsGrace]

@Grailhunter
3 of 3

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23

Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24

Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25

As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27

For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29

Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30

**Nearly all of the above early writing can be read at Early Christian Writings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again as I pointed out the most important prophecies did not come true, so they were pointing out what they thought did.

Not enuogh prophecies for you GH?
Not the right ones?

List of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus

Chart shows a list of Old Testament prophecies or predictions that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah, showing the Bible passage and fulfillment

www.about-jesus.org

351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus Christ | New Testament Christians.Com

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, a pastor once said that if the history of the NT is a conspiracy,
it's the most well-planned and intricate conspiracy of all time.

I believe the writers quoted the OT because they saw Jesus there.

What else would the Apostles quote? The New Testament scriptures had not been written yet.
Now exactly what they were thinking and their intent.....speculation.....and there is nothing wrong with that.
The Quron is written to be perfect......That is how you know it is not true. Real life and history has its hiccups.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter
3 of 3

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,





Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,







**Nearly all of the above early writing can be read at Early Christian Writings.

I know the writings of the ECF's, well covered in college and like them.
Are you presenting them regarding the oneness concept.
I have explained it and Christ explained it.
The oneness concept is just that, a concept, not one cow and two cow and three cow, or ground up to be to be 1 hamburger.
They are a unity....separate persons/Gods that can sit on thrones next to each other and have discussions with one another, but they are an eternal unity. God the Father begot God the Son and God the Father is senior to God the Son. God the Father loves God the Son and God the Son loves God the Father.....They do not love themselves. God the Father gave God the Son for our salvation....He did not give His self.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe Jesus is God because that is what the Apostles taught.
And because the early church right after the Apostles also taught that Jesus is God.

I'd say that they know better what the Apostles taught than some denomination or other from sprang up some 200 years ago.

I'll post the following again:


Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,


Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,









Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.






Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.




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Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter
3 of 3

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,





Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,







**Nearly all of the above early writing can be read at Early Christian Writings.

observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's speaking of Jesus coming in to a physical body here on earth.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God's Word was never "begotten" or "created" by God.

But, the flesh Body the Word took upon Himself to become flesh was begotten and created by God.

Why are we still discussing the word BEGOTTEN?
Could we sign a petition to REMOVE it from the English theological language?

Where does the NT state that Paul WAS executed by the Romans??

Paul was beheaded by Rome.
Again: Does HISTORY END in the book of Acts?
OR
Do the Apostles, incl Paul, continue with their lives??

Theology is code for what man "thinks" he thought God said and what he "thinks" God is like based on man looking from a position of blindness which is nothing my than guessing.

Theology is the STUDY OF GOD.
STUDY.

They smart ones go directly to God's Word so they can know the Lord personally what He has said and what He is like

Why is the word necessary to know God?
I never read the word till years after salvation and I know many that are saved that have never opened the bible.
Maybe it's YOU who are using only your mind??

Sadly most people claiming to be Christians today are really slow in that they take the word of what their favorite preacher or religious figure and believes what they are told to believe and if they even read the Bible they do so thru the thick religious glasses they have been indoctrinated with the point of view of their favorite preacher or religious figure

Agreed.

Sadly the joke is on them because their favorite preacher or religious figure is corrupt!

Might be.
Might not be.

If they accepted the warnings of the Lord in His Word about the end times they would know this but they don't so they don't.

It always seemed like the end times....
Not sure to what you're referring...

 

[Grailhunter]

Not enuogh prophecies for you GH?
Not the right ones?

List of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus

Chart shows a list of Old Testament prophecies or predictions that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah, showing the Bible passage and fulfillment

www.about-jesus.org

351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus Christ | New Testament Christians.Com

It would take a long time to explain each of these.

But the important one is not there.....
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son by impregnating a woman that was betrothed. She would name Him Yeshua and He was a God and Messiah. And would choose twelve Apostles and have a ministry to man. But after 3 years the Jew would betray and He was crucified. Yeshua would ascend to His Father and sit to the right of Him on a throne. But He would return in thousands of years to judge mankind and establish His kingdom

 

[GodsGrace]

Agree with much of what you say here, until your statement that Jesus was eternal in the past.

Jesus is eternal because He always existed.
Did you read the explanation of BEGOTTEN?
It DOES NOT mean created - at any point in time.

This contradicts His being begotten.

This means you haven't grasped the meaning of BEGOTTEN.
I do wish we could eliminate it from theological discussions.
Maybe we could use the word GENERATED instead.

Now I agree with you regarding Him having been begotten, brought forth of the Father, of the same nature and character....kind begetting kind. I liken it to the mountain in Daniel 2. A Rock came forth of the mountain, cut out with hands. That rock is of the fact came material and nature as the mountain, was there in the mountain for a long as the mountain existed, but after being cut out... brought forth... begotten... began an independent existence as a distinct separate personality, while retaining all the prerogatives of mountain nature... divinity.

Oh.
OK. (sorry I don't read ahead)
I agree with you.
You're speaking about JESUS here.
Jesus was born 2 thousand years ago.
He was that piece of rock that came out of the mountain.
The stone was generated from the mountain.

But we have to be careful because Jesus had 2 natures: A human nature and a divine nature.
So Jesus ALSO always existed - we could say as the 2nd Person of the Trinity or as The Son, since He HAS taken on that title so He was always the Son due to the fact that He is eternal.

All the above took place prior to creation. The Father was prime Creator but did so through and for His Son. The Son received all things, including life, authority, and power, from His Father, and was always and still is, subordinate to His Father. Yet by nature and inheritance, still God and equal to the Father in all things except rank. The Holy Spirit belongs to both Father and Son, and is shared by both.

Yes, those who understand heirarchy agree with you and, although I don't like the word SUBORDINATE to His Father,
I do agree that there is a line of authority, or rank....but more in an organizational way....
since each Person has His own specific task - although they all share in each task.

 

[GodsGrace]

What else would the Apostles quote? The New Testament scriptures had not been written yet.
Now exactly what they were thinking and their intent.....speculation.....and there is nothing wrong with that.
The Quron is written to be perfect......That is how you know it is not true. Real life and history has its hiccups.

The Quran is most imperfect.

The reason the Apostles were quoring the OT was to show that Jesus was the Messiah, the awaited one.
And they wrote to show that Jesus is God.
Especially John.
Especially Hebrews.

You make it sound like they had to quote something and the OT is all they had.....
no, they quoted it for a reason.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know the writings of the ECF's, well covered in college and like them.
Are you presenting them regarding the oneness concept.
I have explained it and Christ explained it.
The oneness concept is just that, a concept, not one cow and two cow and three cow, or ground up to be to be 1 hamburger.
They are a unity....separate persons/Gods that can sit on thrones next to each other and have discussions with one another, but they are an eternal unity. God the Father begot God the Son and God the Father is senior to God the Son. God the Father loves God the Son and God the Son loves God the Father.....They do not love themselves. God the Father gave God the Son for our salvation....He did not give His self.

I know that you believe differently from most so it's not easy to discuss.
I can only repeat that your understanding creates 3 Gods and there is only One.
One God
Three Persons

It's not math.
It's theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Right.
JESUS, while a man, had a Father and a God.
My Father and your Father,
My God and your God.

We've been through this.

 

[GodsGrace]

observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other.

And you're right!
But THE TRINITY ties them together so that there is only One God and not three.

 

[GodsGrace]

It would take a long time to explain each of these.

But the important one is not there.....
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son by impregnating a woman that was betrothed. She would name Him Yeshua and He was a God and Messiah. And would choose twelve Apostles and have a ministry to man. But after 3 years the Jew would betray and He was crucified. Yeshua would ascend to His Father and sit to the right of Him on a throne. But He would return in thousands of years to judge mankind and establish His kingdom

The above is found in the prophecies....

 

[Grailhunter]

The Quran is most imperfect.

The reason the Apostles were quoring the OT was to show that Jesus was the Messiah, the awaited one.
And they wrote to show that Jesus is God.
Especially John.
Especially Hebrews.

You make it sound like they had to quote something and the OT is all they had.....
no, they quoted it for a reason.

What I was trying to explain is the Quran is imperfect because it did not have to written with a connection to reality.

 

[Grailhunter]

Did you read the explanation of BEGOTTEN?
It DOES NOT mean created - at any point in time.

Right, it does not mean created.....it means sired.
Just as all the dozens of begots in the Old Testament.