When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, death will be swallowed up in victory and there will then be no more death, which will fulfill Isaiah 25:8.

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're only showing the last day of this age that Isaiah's prophecies pertain to.

So what? That is my intention. The purpose of this thread is to show that Christ's return at the last trumpet will usher in the new heavens and new earth rather than the new heavens and new earth being ushered in 1,000+ years later, as Premils believe. I'm not intending to discuss anything beyond that in this particular thread.

The prophecy of Isaiah refers to the whole time/age of the Messiah, when He would come!

Which prophecy of Isaiah are you talking about in particular? I'm just talking about the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8-9 in this thread which NT scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 21:4 shows as occurring at the last trumpet and when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, which means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in around the time of the sounding of the last trumpet.

Isaiah's prophesy here begins with a song of praise to God for the anticipated deliverance of His people from bondage in Babylon as the remnant who are saved. (vss. 1-5)

Then what follows beginning in vs 6 refers to the time when the promised Messiah would come to redeem, beginning with the remnant of Old whom God has preserved for eternal salvation through the coming Messiah and extending to all the nations of saints throughout the world. Why do you make mention only of the completion of this time of the promised Messiah? Why do you consistently omit the FACT that when Christ came with the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom now in this age is NOT the material physical Kingdom that shall be when the last trump sounds and the new earth has come?

I consistently talk about that FACT many times in other threads. Good grief, man. What is your deal? It's just not the focus of this particularly thread. Start a new thread if you want to talk about things in Isaiah beyond what I'm talking about in this thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those who shall inherit bodily immortality and incorruptibility upon the new heavens and new earth are ALL, both Old Covenant saints as well as New Covenant saints TOGETHER! We are all together "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn".

Do you think I believe otherwise? I agree with this. What you said here is what I've been trying to tell Marilyn C, but she doesn't get it. She tries to divide God's people into different groups, but all of God's people from all-time are all one in Christ. All part of one body together.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God made man from the earth and to have dominion over it.

`And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.` (Gen. 2: 7)

`So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth, and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." (Gen. 1: 27 & 28)

God also had further plans for some men and women, and that was to be in the Body of Christ. This could only happen when Jesus ascended to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit to place each believer, (in Christ and His sacrifice for us) into the Body of Christ.

`And being assembled together with them, He (Jesus) commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the father, "which" He said, "you have heard from me: for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (Acts 1: 4 & 5)

`For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body..` (1 Cor. 12: 12)

When the Body of Christ is brought to maturity by the Holy Spirit then they will be gathered together and changed into like Jesus.

`...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Don of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust, the second man is the Lord from heaven. As was the dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and is the heavenly man, so also are those who are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man.` (1 Cor. 15: 47 - 49)

`...we know that when He (Jesus) is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.` (1 John 3: 2)

And to these in the Body of Christ, overcomers, they will sit with Christ on His very own throne in the highest.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne..` (Rev. 3: 21)

Great job of not addressing what I said at all. Again, Peter said that we (believers) look for new heavens and a new earth to dwell in (2 Peter 3:13) and that is where Old Testament saints will be, also, because, as Hebrews 11:39-40 indicates, they will not inherit God's promises apart from NT saints. Nothing you said here refutes what I said. You have some believers here and some there and some another place. Ridiculous. All believers from all-time will inherit the kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

 

[Marilyn C]

Great job of not addressing what I said at all. Again, Peter said that we (believers) look for new heavens and a new earth to dwell in (2 Peter 3:13) and that is where Old Testament saints will be, also, because, as Hebrews 11:39-40 indicates, they will not inherit God's promises apart from NT saints. Nothing you said here refutes what I said. You have some believers here and some there and some another place. Ridiculous. All believers from all-time will inherit the kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

So, if we are all one group in one place, where is that? With scriptures of course, please.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, if we are all one group in one place, where is that? With scriptures of course, please.

I've already shown you that multiple times.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter is referring to believers in general here. All believers from all time will be dwelling in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

 

[Marilyn C]

I've already shown you that multiple times.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter is referring to believers in general here. All believers from all time will be dwelling in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

But where specifically, please? On the earth, in the universe or in the third heaven on Christ`s throne?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But where specifically, please? On the earth, in the universe or in the third heaven on Christ`s throne?

All believers from all-time will inherit the entire new heavens and new earth. It's not like we will be stuck in one location. Christ is bringing the third heaven to us. He will dwell in the new heavens and new earth with us for eternity. Your theory about God's people being divided up into separate groups blatantly contradicts all the scriptures which tell us that Christ brought all of God's people together as one. Why would God want His people to be divided for eternity? That does not make any sense.

 

[jeffweeder]

But where specifically, please? On the earth, in the universe or in the third heaven on Christ`s throne?

All those saved by Jesus are the New Jerusalem. The Lord ascended to his Father's house to prepare a place for us there.
And we will dwell with the Father forever.

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.



When Jesus comes for the saved, this will occur...,

Rev 21
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven final plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a vast and lofty mountain, and showed me the holy (sanctified) city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having God’s glory [filled with His radiant light].


21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”


Matthew 25:34
“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

 

[Marilyn C]

All those saved by Jesus are the New Jerusalem. The Lord ascended to his Father's house to prepare a place for us there.
And we will dwell with the Father forever.

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.



When Jesus comes for the saved, this will occur...,

Rev 21
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven final plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a vast and lofty mountain, and showed me the holy (sanctified) city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having God’s glory [filled with His radiant light].


21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”


Matthew 25:34
“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Hi jeff,

The city the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven FROM God. God only dwells there by His Holy Spirit. If everyone is in the city then who are the kings and nations of the earth? (Rev. 21: 24 - 26)

 

[Marilyn C]

All believers from all-time will inherit the entire new heavens and new earth. It's not like we will be stuck in one location. Christ is bringing the third heaven to us. He will dwell in the new heavens and new earth with us for eternity. Your theory about God's people being divided up into separate groups blatantly contradicts all the scriptures which tell us that Christ brought all of God's people together as one. Why would God want His people to be divided for eternity? That does not make any sense.

So who are the nations on the earth and the kings who bring their glory into the city? (Rev. 21: 24 - 26)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So who are the nations on the earth and the kings who bring their glory into the city? (Rev. 21: 24 - 26)

Those whose are saved and have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, which is all believers from all time.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[jeffweeder]

Hi jeff,

The city the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven FROM God. God only dwells there by His Holy Spirit.

Hi Marilyn,
The NJ are the redeemed of the earth.

How do you understand v 9 and 21?

If everyone is in the city then who are the kings and nations of the earth? (Rev. 21: 24 - 26)

They are the redeemed. They are the only ones who can enter it. Washed by his blood and glorified to resemble a most magnificent spiritual city.


24 The nations [the redeemed people from the earth] will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring into it their glory. 25 By day (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed [in fear of evil]; 26 and they will bring the glory (splendor, majesty) and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing that defiles or profanes or is unwashed will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices abominations [detestable, morally repugnant things] and lying, but only those [will be admitted] whose names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

 

[Marilyn C]

Those whose are saved and have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, which is all believers from all time.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

However, they are NOT IN the New Jerusalem. Thus, some on the earth and some in the city.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

However, they are NOT IN the New Jerusalem. Thus, some on the earth and some in the city.

They ARE the New Jerusalem because it is described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9).

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

What other bride/wife does Jesus have except for those who belong to Him? You are reading the text far too literally and that's why you're confused. Why would you try to read the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible as literally as possible? It makes no sense.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,
The NJ are the redeemed of the earth.

How do you understand v 9 and 21?


They are the redeemed. They are the only ones who can enter it. Washed by his blood and glorified to resemble a most magnificent spiritual city.


24 The nations [the redeemed people from the earth] will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring into it their glory. 25 By day (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed [in fear of evil]; 26 and they will bring the glory (splendor, majesty) and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing that defiles or profanes or is unwashed will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices abominations [detestable, morally repugnant things] and lying, but only those [will be admitted] whose names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

However, they are NOT IN the New Jerusalem. Thus, some on the earth and some in the city.

Rev. 21: 9 refers to Israel. (isa. 54:5 & 6 and Heb. 11: 16)

Rev. 21: 21 the 12 gates are symbolically the 12 apostles who were promised to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

However, they are NOT IN the New Jerusalem. Thus, some on the earth and some in the city.

Rev. 21: 9 refers to Israel. (isa. 54:5 & 6 and Heb. 11: 16)

Rev. 21: 21 the 12 gates are symbolically the 12 apostles who were promised to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28)

How can you recognize the symbolism of the 12 gates, but not the symbolism of the New Jerusalem itself as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9-10)? Who is the bride of Christ? The church. His people. You are taking the New Jerusalem too literally and it's making you confused.

 

[jeffweeder]

However, they are NOT IN the New Jerusalem. Thus, some on the earth and some in the city.

I think it means that people from all nations will get saved and washed and qualify to enter. When Jesus comes to glorify the redeemed, it is then the NJ comes into view, nobody else can be part of it. They are outside the glory in outer darkness, weeping and gnashing their teeth, and eternally separated from his presence and ours.

Rev. 21: 9 refers to Israel. (isa. 54:5 & 6 and Heb. 11: 16)

I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

All nations are called to adhere to Christ and inherit these things.

Rev. 21: 21 the 12 gates are symbolically the 12 apostles who were promised to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28)

No. The Apostles are the foundation on which Israel must stand. Jesus is the cornerstone Israel rejected.

11 having God’s glory [filled with His radiant light]. The brilliance of it resembled a rare and very precious jewel, like jasper, shining and clear as crystal.

12 It had a massive and high wall, with twelve [large] gates, and at the gates [were stationed] twelve angels; and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were written. 13 On the east side [there were] three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Christ).

 

[Marilyn C]

I think it means that people from all nations will get saved and washed and qualify to enter. When Jesus comes to glorify the redeemed, it is then the NJ comes into view, nobody else can be part of it. They are outside the glory in outer darkness, weeping and gnashing their teeth, and eternally separated from his presence and ours.



I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

All nations are called to adhere to Christ and inherit these things.

No. The Apostles are the foundation on which Israel must stand. Jesus is the cornerstone Israel rejected.

11 having God’s glory [filled with His radiant light]. The brilliance of it resembled a rare and very precious jewel, like jasper, shining and clear as crystal.

12 It had a massive and high wall, with twelve [large] gates, and at the gates [were stationed] twelve angels; and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were written. 13 On the east side [there were] three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Christ).

So we have the nations of the earth and those in the city. Two different groups.

Also, God`s word says that the 12disciples/apostles will rule over the 12 tribes. (Matt. 19: 28)

And Jesus is the foundation as God`s word says. (1 Cor. 3: 11)

 

[Marilyn C]

How can you recognize the symbolism of the 12 gates, but not the symbolism of the New Jerusalem itself as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9-10)? Who is the bride of Christ? The church. His people. You are taking the New Jerusalem too literally and it's making you confused.

There is NO scripture saying that the church is the bride! Israel is. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6 Hosea 2: 19 & 20)

It was the OT saints who looked for a city and were promised that. (Heb. 11: 16)

 

[jeffweeder]

So we have the nations of the earth and those in the city. Two different groups.

That is not what I was saying at all. The New Jerusalem is seen only after the Final judgment and our bodily glorification.
In the meantime....,


Heb 12
” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels [in festive gathering], 23 and to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to God, who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect [bringing them to their final glory], 24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant [uniting God and man], and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].


26 His voice shook the earth [at Mount Sinai] then, but now He has given a promise, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the [starry] heaven.” 27 Now this [expression], “Yet once more,” indicates the removal and final transformation of all those things which can be shaken—that is, of that which has been created—so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, and offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is [indeed] a consuming fire.



The redeemed are glorified and remain when the Lord comes in a flame of fire in complete vengeance to glorify his own.


2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of [c]everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day