Questions about the Fall - The consequences shell game

[St. SteVen]

--- PARODY ---

The Fall revisited

God: What is this thing you have done?
Adam: She made me do it.
God: What say you?
Eve: The serpent made me do it.
God: You will have great pain in childbirth.
Eve: That wasn't the original consequence.
God: You will eat by the sweat of your brow.
Adam: That wasn't the original consequence.
God: On your belly you will go, eating dust.
Serpent: Hey, leave me out of this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The story of the Fall of humankind in Genesis chapter three begs a few questions.
Actually, starting in Genesis chapter two with the consequences stated to Adam.
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Genesis 2:17 KJV

Seems pretty straight forward. In the day you eat thereof you will surely die. Dead.
Adam had no questions about this, but what did it mean to him? Did he understand death?
And even more confusing is what happened when he ate thereof. In that day he did not die.
Not physically anyway.

And where did all the other consequences come from? Not part of the original deal.
- For Eve: You will have great pain in childbirth. Your husband will rule over you.
- For Adam: You will eat by the sweat of your brow. Thistles and thorns.
- For the Serpent: On your belly you will go, eating dust.
- For A&E: Banished from the garden.

None of these consequences were in the original warning given to Adam.
Which Adam passed on to his wife Eve, adding the bit about not touching.

--- PARODY ---

Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because I know you
like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!

Indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And on top of all of these inconsistencies we have the Fall of humankind.
All we who were born in Adam's race were born sinners in need of redemption.
That much seems clear. Unless you question whether Adam was the first man.
Then things really get confusing.

At any rate, what do you make of all this?

Did the Serpent deceive A&E by lying, or by telling the truth?

The knee-jerk reaction is to claim the serpent lied. Let's give this a closer look. Genesis 2:15-17 NIV The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17...

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[Deborah_]

Adam must have witnessed death, otherwise the threat would have been meaningless. This is one of the reasons why I don't believe in a recent 7-day creation.
When the humans did sin, the sentence wasn't executed immediately - it was "suspended".

True that God didn't give them a full list of consequences in Genesis 2 (even in Genesis 3, not all the detailed consequences of sin are given - no mention of war, for example) - but I would have thought that death didn't need anything added to it in order to make the point.

Adam rebelled. We have inherited his attitude, and we all - inevitably - rebel. We sin from the moment we're capable of sinning. And so we're all under the same (suspended) sentence of death.

 

[soberxp]

God: do not eat the tree, you will,surely die.

After eat the tree..


God: you should eat the tree, you will surely alive.

After no one willing eat it....

I think that there must something wrong with God.... Lack of lucky.

 

[St. SteVen]

Adam must have witnessed death, otherwise the threat would have been meaningless. This is one of the reasons why I don't believe in a recent 7-day creation.

Well, that's my point. I don't know that Adam did witness death. Didn't death come with the Fall? And not before?

What do you make of this?

Genesis 1:5 NIV
God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

When the humans did sin, the sentence wasn't executed immediately - it was "suspended".

Why? That was not clear in the consequences given. "In the day that you eat thereof..."

True that God didn't give them a full list of consequences in Genesis 2 (even in Genesis 3, not all the detailed consequences of sin are given - no mention of war, for example) - but I would have thought that death didn't need anything added to it in order to make the point.

Good point. But why no indication upfront?
I don't think Adam had any idea what was ahead for humankind.

Adam rebelled. We have inherited his attitude, and we all - inevitably - rebel.

Rebelled?
He and Eve were deceived. They had no plans to eat thereof.

We sin from the moment we're capable of sinning. And so we're all under the same (suspended) sentence of death.

True, but...
This whole thing is really messed up.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think that there must something wrong with God.... Lack of lucky.

Lack of lucky?
What do you mean?

 

[soberxp]

Lack of lucky?
What do you mean?

What I want to say is that if Satan is a creation of God, then God might have calculated everything but forgot to account for Satan's cunning. As a result, everything God says seems to lack a bit of luck—His words are never truly accepted by humans...

Because humans are simply inclined to listen to Satan instead. This is what I mean when I say God might have been missing a bit of luck.

But this is just my thought. Perhaps God did calculate Satan's cunning, but no one has ever been able to live up to what Jesus said: "Be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

 

[St. SteVen]

What I want to say is that if Satan is a creation of God, then God might have calculated everything but forgot to account for Satan's cunning. As a result, everything God says seems to lack a bit of luck—His words are never truly accepted by humans...

Because humans are simply inclined to listen to Satan instead. This is what I mean when I say God might have been missing a bit of luck.

But this is just my thought. Perhaps God did calculate Satan's cunning, but no one has ever been able to live up to what Jesus said: "Be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

Here's my view. You may have heard me say this before, but it bears repeating. IMHO

In John chapter one we are introduced to the Word (Logos).
Everything from the beginning hinges on this thought.
The Logos was the plan, the reason, the logic, the meaning in it all.

The Logos was with God in the beginning, the Logos was God,
The Logos became flesh (Christ) and dwelt among us.

What played out in the Fall in Genesis chapter three was foreseen in the Logos.
Christ is the answer to the chaos I see in Genesis.

 

[soberxp]

Here's my view. You may have heard me say this before, but it bears repeating. IMHO

In John chapter one we are introduced to the Word (Logos).
Everything from the beginning hinges on this thought.
The Logos was the plan, the reason, the logic, the meaning in it all.

The Logos was with God in the beginning, the Logos was God,
The Logos became flesh (Christ) and dwelt among us.

What played out in the Fall in Genesis chapter three was foreseen in the Logos.
Christ is the answer to the chaos I see in Genesis.

Jesus said: "Be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."


What I mean is, there is a being as cunning as Satan but kind, capable of learning to lie like Satan yet leading people to believe in God’s words without causing any harm.

This is the luck that God lacks.

But in my view, all of this is part of God’s plan and arrangement. God feared humans touching that forbidden knowledge, yet God also pushed humans toward touching that forbidden knowledge.

It is like a person who always fears something, so they decide to face it bravely.

And Jesus was the only solution God could think of to resolve this.

Yet I still believe God lacked a creation to assist Him—that is, Satan.

The luck God lacked lies precisely with Satan.

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the luck that God lacks.

Perhaps we should discuss what luck is.
I understand that it is a popular thing in China and the east in general.
And in the west as well.

In a game of chance, the winner is said to have luck.
If the luck continues, the person is considered lucky.
But what is luck really? Beating the odds to win.

I would say that if anyone has the luck to beat the odds and win, it is God.

 

[Lambano]

I think that there must something wrong with God.... Lack of lucky.

Lack of lucky?
What do you mean?

That's the first time I've ever heard someone say that God was S.O.L.

 

[soberxp]

Perhaps we should discuss what luck is.
I understand that it is a popular thing in China and the east in general.
And in the west as well.

In a game of chance, the winner is said to have luck.
If the luck continues, the person is considered lucky.
But what is luck really? Beating the odds to win.

I would say that if anyone has the luck to beat the odds and win, it is God.

From a probabilistic perspective, God is eternal, and luck will eventually manifest for Him, but not now. What I am speaking of is the present, in this transient world.

At least, in this world governed by Satan's rules, God is lacking just a bit of luck.

 

[Lambano]

At least, in this world governed by Satan's rules, God is lacking just a bit of luck.

A major principle of Reformed theology is that God is sovereign, i.e. God is in charge of the the universe. If Satan seems to be setting the rules, it is only because God lets him. Note that in the book of Job chapters 1 and 2, Satan has to ask God for permission to totally wreck Job's life.

If Satan REALLY had the power to challenge God and the final outcome was in doubt, we'd all be in BIG trouble.

 

[Lambano]

A major principle of Reformed theology is that God is sovereign, i.e. God is in charge of the the universe. If Satan seems to be setting the rules, it is only because God lets him.

Now, that principle brings up some other interesting questions.

 

[soberxp]

A major principbei eformed theology is that God is sovereign, i.e. God is in charge of the the universe. If Satan seems to be setting the rules, it is only because God lets him. Note that in the book of Job chapters 1 and 2, Satan has to ask God for permission to totally wreck Job's life.

If Satan REALLY had the power to challenge God and the final outcome was in doubt, we'd all be in BIG trouble.

That's the first time I've ever heard someone say that God was S.O.L.

I'm being serious when I say that God is lacking lucky.
Cuz God can't lie as Satan to say something to human beings.
Maybe God hidden Some things that we don't know as well. But God can't lie.

God lack of the lucky That's someone a human beings can be lie as the serpent and no harm as dove to leading the human beings to obey the word of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

From a probabilistic perspective, God is eternal, and luck will eventually manifest for Him, but not now. What I am speaking of is the present, in this transient world.

At least, in this world governed by Satan's rules, God is lacking just a bit of luck.

It reminds me of a famous sermon.
"It's Friday, but Sunday's comin'."

When things looked their worst, what happened?
The odds were against the Christ.

But what was the outcome? Against all odds.

 

[Lambano]

God: You will have great pain in childbirth.
Eve: That wasn't the original consequence.

Eve probably said, "Childbirth? What the hell is that?"

 

[Lambano]

I'm being serious when I say that God is lacking lucky.
Cuz God can't lie as Satan to say something to human beings.
Maybe God hidden Some things that we don't know as well. But God can't lie.

God lack of the lucky That's someone a human beings can be lie as the serpent and no harm as dove to leading the human beings to obey the word of God.

Read 2 Chronicles 18 about how God used a deceiving spirit to accomplish His will.

I come to a very different conclusion: That the Fall was planned. Why?

 

[St. SteVen]

Eve probably said, "Childbirth? What the hell is that?"

She didn't sign up for that, for sure!
Seemed so reasonable, right?

Genesis 3:6 NIV
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye,
and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband,
who was with her, and he ate it.

 

[St. SteVen]

That the Fall was planned. Why?

The Logos. ???

 

[soberxp]

Read 2 Chronicles 18 about how God used a deceiving spirit to accomplish His will.

I come to a very different conclusion: That the Fall was planned. Why?

all of this is part of God’s plan and arrangement. God feared humans touching that forbidden knowledge, yet God also pushed humans toward touching that forbidden knowledge by Satan.

It is like a person who always fears something, so he decide to face it bravely.

And Jesus was the only solution God could think of to resolve this.