Why the great chain?

[Marty fox]

Let's break the first 3 verses down like such.

A) an angel comes down from heaven

B) having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

C) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan

D) and bound him a thousand years,

E) And cast him into the bottomless pit

F) and shut him up

G) and set a seal upon him

H) that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

I) and after that he must be loosed a little season

Does not the great chain in his hand accomplish D)? Isn't that what a chain typically does? Binds something?

And what about A) and C)? In order to accomplish C), doesn't A) have to be fulfilled first? In order to lay hold on and cast into, doesn't this require that what is being laid hold of is dwelling where the one meant in A) is coming down to? Where is the one in A) coming down to? The earth, obviously. Already the scene is not heaven, it is the earth. Since it is absurd that to come down from heaven does not mean to come down to the earth. But that it means to come down from heaven to heaven.

Which then raises the question. Why would satan be dwelling on the earth and when did he initially start doing so? Doesn't the following tell us exactly that?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 ¶Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


When Revelation 20:1-3 is initially meaning, it has to be meaning after verses 7-12 have been fulfilled first since this clearly has satan dwelling upon the earth.

Yet look what happens next.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Notice what the text says--when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth. Obviously meaning right after he is cast unto the earth since it would be absurd that he doesn't notice he was cast unto the earth until sometime much later, rather than at that time.

Then notice what happens once he sees he has been cast unto the earth--- And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Seriously, does any of that even remotely sound like anything recorded in Revelation 20:1-3?

If you think it does, then point out the similarities. Keep in mind, before satan is cast unto the earth, before the war in heaven, satan was doing this at the time, for one--

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Does any of that sound like anything in Revelation 20:1-3, that the thousand years involved the days of Job? The point I'm trying to bring out is this. There are only 2 places satan's binding can fit. Either before the war in heaven before he is cast unto the earth. Or after the war in heaven when he is cast unto the earth. As to the latter there are 2 options, actually.

Option 1) Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


Option 2) Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As to option 1, meaning at that time.

As to option 2, meaning after this war is fulfilled first, the same war Revelation 13:7 is involving.

I’ll have to get back to this tomorrow but do you see how symbolic your points are at the beginning

A dragon

The old serpent

A bottomless pit

Why are these symbolic and the rest aren’t?

Really a bottomless pit? That doesn’t exist that would be a hole

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since the angel comes from heaven, the great chain will be made of a heavenly material, apparently having strength to it more than an earthly made chain, to be able to limit Satan's movement, arms and legs.

Also, that the angel has the key of the bottomless pit indicates that the bottomless pit is a supernatural prison, perhaps deep within the earth, or perhaps in another dimension. Our understanding of the bottomless pit, it's features there, is very limited.

In 2Peter2:4, it says... 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

That verse reveals a little more about the location of the bottomless pit. It is located in hell, the place of dead souls.

From the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:22-26, there are two sides of hell separated by an un-cross-able
great gulf. One side a place of comfort. The other side a place of torment by the heat of flames there.

So, where is the bottomless pit - it is the great gulf between the two sides of hell.

In the bottomless pit is the spirit of the garden of Eden serpent beast, that submitted to Satan's instructions to seduce Eve into eating the fruit of the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When the revealed man of sin is killed (assassinated) for his audacious act of claiming to be God in 2Thessalonians2:4, he will find his soul in hell,

Ezekiel 28:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

So his soul will be right there at the edge to the bottomless pit.

We have to keep in mind, who put into the revealed man of sin's mind to claim to be God. It was Satan, acting out his desire through his prote'ge' to be worshiped like God - Satan's desire is described in Isaiah 14:12-14.

In Isaiah 14:15, the slain man of sin, the prote'ge' of Satan, is brought down to hell, to "the sides of the pit" as it says in the text. Further indication of where the bottomless pit is.

In Isaiah 14:18-20, God in disdain for the person, does not let the person have the honor of his body being buried in a fancy tomb, and returns his soul to his body laying in a casket.

At which time, the disembodied spirit of the garden of Eden serpent beast is allowed to come out of the bottomless pit to enter the slain man of sin's soul - thus the person becomes the beast of Revelation,

 

[rwb]

I think we all would agree that some people were being saved prior to the old covenant and nation of Israel, and Satan wasn’t bound at that time. This in itself should be proof enough that an unbound Satan can’t prevent people from becoming saved.

Satan didn't have to be bound for people to be saved. However, it has always been necessary for people to know of the Savior and believe God for them to be saved. Before there was a nation called Israel this knowledge came to those who were of faith through revelation from God alone. Even the nation of Israel did not know of the Savior until God chose certain ones appointing them to teach of Him.

Romans 10:14-15 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

After the old covenant is created and Israel becomes a nation, it appears that you have absolutely no person outside of the nation Israel being saved. If a person outside of Israel does have faith, they will go to the nation Israel and assimilate into that nation and follow the old covenant. It appears you would say it’s impossible at that time to have saving faith and not assimilate into the nation of Israel.

Whosoever has been ordained from the foundation of the world to be saved SHALL BE or HAS BEEN eternally saved according to grace through faith. Salvation is of the LORD! Once there became a nation called Israel of Old, both Jew & Gentile could be saved when they believed! But God chose the nation of Israel, telling all of them (Jews) of the Savior that would come to redeem whosoever believed in Him. The Jews ALL knew of the Savior through the Law and prophets given explicitly to the nation. So, if a Gentile was not born into the covenant nation of Israel, they would never know about the saving grace of God through the Savior. That's why for a Gentile to be saved, living under the Mosaic Laws they had to convert and become as a Jew, learning under the Law & Prophets. The only Gentiles saved outside of the nation of Israel before the advent of Christ, had to first HEAR of the Savior and believe. It was not common for Gentiles outside of the nation to be saved, because most of them did not hear of the Messiah, and those who did hear of the Messiah and believe, like Ninevah for example, learned of the Messiah from chosen prophets God sent to them. Otherwise, Gentiles, as a whole, remained in darkness and unbelief without knowledge of a Savior for them.

It also seems that you’re saying that if the gospel of the coming kingdom would’ve been preached to Gentiles, prior to the cross, they would’ve believed and assimilated into the nation of Israel but since it wasn’t preached, that’s how Satan deceived them. Based on that I would say Satan had power over Israel, the saved people, rather than the Gentiles but I don’t want to argue that point.

According to the Bible, Ninevah heard the message of the coming Messiah from God's prophet, Jonah. Once they heard and believed this Gentile people did NOT have to become as a Jew, living under the Laws given explicitly to the nation. But of those from Ninevah who believed, they are saved according to grace through faith in the same way ALL people are. Eternal salvation has never been dependent upon one's ethnicity! Salvation has always been given by grace of God through faith for WHOSOEVER believes on Him. And Satan neither before being bound or after has NEVER been more powerful than GOD! Whosoever among the human race has been ordained to eternal life will believe on Christ for eternal life!

Acts 13:47-48 (KJV) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The reason Gentiles became as a Jew was to become one with the Covenant nation having both those of faith and those who remained in unbelief within them, whereby they would learn from the law, prophets, and priests of the wonderful works and promises of God for His people. Gentiles did not become like Jews to be saved, rather through the Jewish Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ whom they learned of through the prophets of Old, in whom they believed in Him and are saved.

Here’s how I see it, the old covenant was made to the nation of Israel, which had allowances for Gentiles to assimilate, but that covenant wasn’t universal or made to Gentile nations. The new covenant is not made to any particular nation, it is universal, a person can remain in any nation and still be saved under that covenant.

The gospel not going to the Gentiles prior to the cross has to do with the covenant, not about whether Satan was bound or not. Since the new covenant is eternal the conditions of that covenant never cease yet a person who ties the conditions of the covenants to the binding of Satan will run into issues when Satan is loosed because it would imply that the new covenant, at least in part, ends.

The advantage for Gentiles of old to assimilate and become as a Jew was to receive of the promises and blessings of God promised to them. It was through the Jew the Messiah would come. Those of Old could only be saved by grace through faith if/when they believe. Gentile & Jew alike both before and after the advent of Christ are saved when they believe in the Lord for eternal salvation.

Don't confuse the everlasting Covenant of Grace that shall never end with the temporary Covenant God made with Israel of Old that was always temporary because inheritance depended upon the Jews obedience to God by keeping the laws of Old. When they turned away from God to serve other gods and idols, the promise of life forever on the promised land was forfeited forever. The only Covenant promised exclusively to the nation of Old was the promised land of Cannan they might have possessed forever.

The Covenant of Redemption ordained in eternity before the foundation of the world is a promise for ALL of mankind, that WHOSOEVER among this mass of humanity shall believe on the Lord Jesus Christ SHALL BE and ARE eternally saved. The Covenant of Redemption ordained from eternity has always been to ALL of mankind without distinction! And whosoever among this mass of humanity believe in Christ SHALL BE and ARE eternally saved.

 

[Davidpt]

I’ll have to get back to this tomorrow but do you see how symbolic your points are at the beginning

A dragon

The old serpent

A bottomless pit

Why are these symbolic and the rest aren’t?

Really a bottomless pit? That doesn’t exist that would be a hole

My guess is that it's called a bottomless pit(abussos) because the depth of it can't be known. Not that it's literally bottomless. But that t is so deep, it's a if it has no bottom. Maybe think of it like the following, for example.

If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath(Jeremiah 31:37)

Isaiah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured(Jeremiah 33:22)

Try thinking about the bottomless pit along these lines. The pit is not literally bottomless. Yet it is as if it is bottomless since it's depths can't be searched out. Therefore, the pit indeed can be literal without it having to be literally bottomless.

First satan is cast unto the earth. Then later he is cast into the bottomless pit(abussos), the same pit(abussos) the locusts in Revelation 9 are imprisoned in until a star(angel) falls from heaven and opens the pit. Why any of that if there is no literal pit(abussos) involved?

And as to these locusts that emerge, where are they now? I see no hint of them. Therefore, since they obviously exist, whatever they are, in the meantime it's as if they don't exist, the fact the pit(abussos) is obviously doing what it was designed to do. Imprisoning with no escape until the pit(abussos) is opened.

--------------------------
Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).
---------------------

Now just put 2 and 2 together here. This legion of demons fear being cast into the deep(abussos) and equate it with Jesus tormenting them before their time. That really makes a whole lot of sense if the pit is not literal in some sense, not.

All Amil seems to want to do in a lot of cases is make nonsense out of some of these things rather than trying to make sense out of some of these things instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no reason to think that either of those are symbolic.

There are plenty of reasons to think that. The literal Premillenial interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts many other scriptures.

 

[RepentingChristian]

They assume Satan is a created spiritual being made by God, but that is not true. I won’t revisit that debate here since it has already been addressed elsewhere.

Fair enough but are you able please to provide a link to where I can learn more about that theology? Thank you in advance!

 

[rwb]

I think we all would agree that some people were being saved prior to the old covenant and nation of Israel, and Satan wasn’t bound at that time. This in itself should be proof enough that an unbound Satan can’t prevent people from becoming saved.

Satan didn't have to be bound for people to be saved. However, it has always been necessary for people to know of the Savior and believe God for them to be saved. Before there was a nation called Israel this knowledge came to those who were of faith through revelation from God alone. Even the nation of Israel did not know of the Savior until God chose certain ones appointing them to teach of Him.

Romans 10:14-15 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

After the old covenant is created and Israel becomes a nation, it appears that you have absolutely no person outside of the nation Israel being saved. If a person outside of Israel does have faith, they will go to the nation Israel and assimilate into that nation and follow the old covenant. It appears you would say it’s impossible at that time to have saving faith and not assimilate into the nation of Israel.

Whosoever has been ordained from the foundation of the world to be saved SHALL BE or HAS BEEN eternally saved according to grace through faith. Salvation is of the LORD! Once there became a nation called Israel of Old, both Jew & Gentile could be saved when they believed! But God chose the nation of Israel, telling all of them (Jews) of the Savior that would come to redeem whosoever believed in Him. The Jews ALL knew of the Savior through the Law and prophets given explicitly to the nation. So, if a Gentile was not born into the covenant nation of Israel, they would never know about the saving grace of God through the Savior. That's why for a Gentile to be saved, living under the Mosaic Laws they had to convert and become as a Jew, learning under the Law & Prophets. The only Gentiles saved outside of the nation of Israel before the advent of Christ, had to first HEAR of the Savior and believe. It was not common for Gentiles outside of the nation to be saved, because most of them did not hear of the Messiah, and those who did hear of the Messiah and believe, like Ninevah for example, learned of the Messiah from chosen prophets God sent to them. Otherwise, Gentiles, as a whole, remained in darkness and unbelief without knowledge of a Savior for them.

 

[rwb]

This has already been explained to you. I already showed that Scripture uses binding and chains to describe real restraint by God’s authority over spiritual beings, not metal hardware ~Jude 1:6. I already showed that the issue in Revelation 20 is what the binding accomplishes, not what the chain is made of ~Revelation 20:3.

This question has been answered. Reframing it as “how can a spirit be bound with a chain” is a deflection from the text, not an engagement with it. Revelation 20 is clear. Satan is bound so he cannot deceive the nations, then later released. That condition does not exist now. I have already shown this from Scripture.

What you fail to explain is how Gentiles from the nations of the world have been and are being saved if Satan who deceives all of them has not yet been bound by the cross and resurrection of Christ? The text tells us that Satan had to be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more". According to the way you understand Satan bound, how are some (faithful) Gentiles NOW, since the advent of Christ being saved? According to you Satan must be restrained, but is not yet restrained, so through whom is Christ building His Church? How can Peter, and the other disciples be about building the Church upon the Rock (Christ) before Satan is bound?

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Davidpt]

I’ll have to get back to this tomorrow but do you see how symbolic your points are at the beginning

A dragon

The old serpent

A bottomless pit

Why are these symbolic and the rest aren’t?

Really a bottomless pit? That doesn’t exist that would be a hole

So when an Amil says dragon = symbolic, serpent = symbolic = a real being, but bottomless pit = symbolic = therefore unreal---they’ve added an extra step that doesn’t follow. No Amil says heaven can’t be measured, therefore heaven doesn’t exist. Right? The point being. The bottomless pit, likewise, can't be measured, but that doesnt have to = doesn't exist.

These locusts I brought up in an earlier post, where are the locusts now? If they exist, are imprisoned according to the texts, are released at a specific time according to the texts, are commanded by a king (Apollyon) according to the texts, then the abyss is clearly functioning as a holding place. Real restraint, real imprisonment, real release.

Here’s the irony. Amils are happy to say dragon = satan (symbolic image, real being). serpent = satan (symbolic image, real being). But then out of the other side of their mouth, Abyss = symbolic image does not = a literal place. But if symbolic language can refer to a real personal being, obviously it can also refer to a real location involving literal imprisonment.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Fair enough but are you able please to provide a link to where I can learn more about that theology? Thank you in advance!

Unfortunately, there is none.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Clearly, you have misunderstood the purpose of Christ’s “millennial” kingdom.

If Amillennialism is correct—and the millennial kingdom runs from the Cross (when Satan was bound) until the Second Coming—then please explain the following:

1. When will Satan be released from the bottomless pit?
2. Why will Satan be released from the bottomless pit?

Once these questions are answered, we can proceed from there.

@Davidpt hasn't answer the questions? Thought so!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you going to argue that the war involving Revelation 13:7 is not during a time when satan is deceiving the nations?

Sure, why not? Revelation 20 says NOTHING about Satan being bound from persecuting believers. Your understanding of what it means for him to be bound from deceiving the nations is flawed, so you naturally can't comprehend how he could both persecute believers and deceive the nations at the same time. As long as you continue to think that his binding leaves him completely incapacitated, you will not understand what his binding entails. We have shown you what it entails many times and you just ignore what we say, so what is the point of discussing this yet again now? It's a waste of time.

Revelation 20 makes it clear that first he is deceiving the nations, then he no longer is, then he is deceiving the nations again.

Your understanding of his binding is that his general ability to deceive is removed and it makes it so that he can do nothing at all. That is not what his binding means. As long as you look at it from that perspective, we can't have a reasonable discussion about this.

And that Revelation 13:7 is either meaning before he is is bound or after he is bound.

Except it can't be the latter when Revelation 20:4 already proves otherwise--and I saw the souls of them--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(compare with Revelation 13 since Scripture interprets Scripture. Unless you want to argue that Scripture does not interpret Scripture. Which is what you would be inferring in this case if you deny that the martyrs in Revelation 20:4 that I submitted, that their martyrdom occurs during the 42 month reign of the beast. Would not be anything I would want to argue, though)

It's because of interpreting scripture with scripture that I am an amill. You have no idea of what you're talking about because of your flawed understanding of Satan's binding. The 42 months is not literal, but you don't understand that because you interpret symbolic things literally and literal things symbolically. Your way of thinking is completely flawed. You are not able to tell me who or what you think the beast is, so why should I take anything you say about the beast seriously?

And that during the thousand years this is not an option, period, since Revelation 13 demands that both satan and the beast can't be in the pit at the time.

What?! Revelation 13 demands that they both must be in the pit at the same time because they are entirely dependent on each other. The beast gets its power from the dragon, Satan (Revelation 13:4). Satan does his work using the beast. So, it only follows that if the beast is in the pit, then so is Satan. And vice versa. But, you can't understand these things because of your flawed understanding of what it means to be in the pit. In Revelation 9, it talks about demonic locusts being in the pit until the fifth trumpet. The demonic locusts represent fallen angels. Surely, the fallen angels are not completely incapacitated until the fifth trumpet sounds.

Revelation 17 indicates that the beast "is not" at the time the book was written and, yet, one of its heads "is" at that time. You have no idea what that means. The beast "is not" while being in the pit, yet one of its heads "is" while the beast is in the pit, showing that being in the pit does not result in being completely incapacitated, as you imagine.

 

[Davidpt]

What you fail to explain is how Gentiles from the nations of the world have been and are being saved if Satan who deceives all of them has not yet been bound by the cross and resurrection of Christ? The text tells us that Satan had to be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more". According to the way you understand Satan bound, how are some (faithful) Gentiles NOW, since the advent of Christ being saved? According to you Satan must be restrained, but is not yet restrained, so through whom is Christ building His Church? How can Peter, and the other disciples be about building the Church upon the Rock (Christ) before Satan is bound?

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Look at the way you are reasoning things. It is the spreading of the gospel that leads to the salvation of both Jew and Gentile, not the binding of satan. Imagine that, unless satan is bound the spreading of the gospel might be hindered, might be stopped altogether. Then you bring up Matthew 16:18 which proves my point not your point. It clearly says the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Keeping in mind satan is not bound until he is cast into the LOF, he is loosed after he is bound, then cast into the LOF. Which would then mean if Amil is true, that when satan is loosed it would then = this--- the gates of hell shall prevail against it. Keeping in mind that Amil apparently insists it's because satan is bound being the reason the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

But guess what? When satan is loosed this clearly means he is no longer bound. Amil can't have it both ways. Amil can't insist that because satan is bound the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. And when he is loosed the gates of hell still won't prevail against the church. The latter clearly proving binding satan has zero to do with the gates of hell not prevailing against the church. Otherwise, the exact opposite would be true once satan is no longer bound and is loosed.

 

[Davidpt]

@Davidpt hasn't answer the questions? Thought so!

Maybe I didn't see the questions yet? But now that I have. The answer to question 1 is simple. he is released after the thousand years are finished. Why is he released? That is the question Amils have no good answer for. he is released in order to deceive the nations whose fate was not Zechariah 14:12 at the time, in order to attempt to overthrow Christ and His one world government that has been governing the planet for the past 1K years. But Amil wants to ignore there are survivors post Zechariah 14:12.

Amil wants to ignore that Zechariah 14:12 hasn't been fulfilled yet. Amil wants to ignore that Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled and is meaning post the 2nd coming. Amil wants to ignore that one can't come up year to year in a single day or less, regardless what that might look like and involve, therefore, a period of time post the 2nd coming is obviously required in order to fulfill this. Otherwise, one has to conclude that verses 16-19 will be like that all throughout eternity. Even after 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Keeping in mind, once that verse is fulfilled there is no period of time preventing verses 16-19 from continuing in that manner for forever.

BTW, on another note while I'm thinking about it, the fact you insist satan is not a created being, maybe you can then explain what the following was all about?

Matthew 4:1 ¶Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

One is to believe Jesus was conversing with Himself then asking Himself questions and then giving answers to what was running through His mind at the time? Like I already said. It is clearly heresy to claim satan is not a created being.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker, calling this a difference among Christians does not answer the text.

Right, and I suggested no such thing. Any difference among Christians does not really answer to the text at all in and of itself, except to say that if there are two opposing views/understandings/interpretations of a text, then either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. They cannot both be right.

Revelation 20 is not subjective...

Yeah, I don't... even know... why you feel compelled to say that. But sure. <smile>

and it is not proven by personal experience.

I'm not talking about personal experience, bdavidc, I'm talking about who and what you and I both (I think; I know about me, of course) are. If you ARE a Gentile Christian/believer, then you yourself are living proof that Satan is bound from deceiving the... "nations," which, if you look back through Scripture, especially in the Old Testament, you should be able to quickly surmise that 'nations' refers to all people-groups outside of Israel. Satan absolutely cannot ~ since Jesus came to "proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed" (Isaiah 61, Luke 4) ~ prevent the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

Revelation states the purpose of the binding plainly. Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3.

Absolutely. It absolutely does. But yet so many still misunderstand it. I'm not saying you do, but so it is.

That is not about whether individual Gentiles can be saved.

It is. The "nations" contain... individual Gentiles. <smile> Even the political entity... nation-state... Israel contains Gentiles, which we can see from Paul's statement in Romans 9:6 that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel." Which brings up this: Paul, in Romans 9-11, talks about God's elect. And keep in mind that Paul, in different letters and in different ways, says ethnicity has no bearing on being one of God's elect or on salvation, that those who are saved (have been born again of the Spirit) are all one in Christ.

It is about the condition of the nations as nations.

So, when we hear 'nations' in Scripture, bdavidc, we should not understand that to mean nation-states or political entities, or bordered geographical entities (countries). <smile> It is a collective term, covering "all tribes and peoples and languages," (Revelation 7:9) in Biblical terms ... people groups.

Scripture repeatedly testifies that this condition does not exist now.

Well, it testifies that not all elect Gentiles are brought into God's Israel yet, right. And the partial hardening that is on Israel has not been completely removed yet. But it will be... <smile> So, right, I agree with what you say here, but in a bit different way than you apparenltly do. There are still Gentiles out there who are yet to be brought into God's Israel. But every single Gentile believer in Christ out there is absolute proof that Satan cannot do a thing to prevent the Gospel from reaching him or her and God building His Israel in that way.

John says without qualification, “the whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Paul says Satan “blinds the minds of them which believe not” ~2 Corinthians 4:4. Peter warns believers that the devil “walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” ~1 Peter 5:8. None of that language fits a restrained adversary who is unable to deceive the nations.

Disagree. This misunderstanding of Satan's "binding" is... well, you're not alone. <smile> Let's just talk about the word 'bound' there in Revelation 20:3. The only other place in all of Scripture where that word shows up, that speaks to Satan's being "bound," is in what Jesus Himself says in Matthew 12. Jesus says to the Pharisees there, "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house" (Matthew 12:29). What we should see there, bdavidc, is that Jesus is that "Someone" and Satan is the "strong man," and we are ~ were, actually, if we have been born again of the Spirit ~ those "goods" who have been "plundered" from the strong man's "house." If we are to see that, then we must see that the "strong man"... again, Satan... has been bound.

Gentile salvation is not evidence of Satan’s binding. Scripture never makes that argument.

Okay, well, we disagree. <smile> Although I agree about the "argument" part; there is no argument, it just... is what it is. <smile>

The gospel advances despite satanic activity, not because Satan is restrained.

Okay, well, I say the Gospel advances despite Satan's activity... on that we agree... Think of it even in earthly terms, that even a prisoner in a maximum-security prison can exert influence on and in the outside world through various means, "prowling about" and active in that way; so it is, albeit on a spiritual scale, with Satan. Satan is absolutely powerless, though, to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles, the nations. Thus Jesus's mandate to His disciples, which includes by extension all of us followers of Christ, to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded us" (Matthew 28:20). You see? There it is... "nations." If we think of a nation as a nation-state, a political entity, a geographical landmass, then... how in the world do you baptize a nation or teach it to observe what Christ has commanded?

Paul preached to Gentiles while Satan actively opposed him.

Of course. See above.

Romans 11 does not redefine Revelation 20.

Well, it does if Revelation 20 is... mis-defined. <smile>

The fulness of the Gentiles ~Romans 11:25 occurs during “this present evil world” ~Galatians 1:4, not during a restored age where deception of the nations has ceased.

Right. And so does Revelation 20.

Revelation 20 describes a future restraint that results in a worldwide condition that has never yet existed.

Disagree. I am not a futurist. <smile> And actually, let me clarify that: Revelation 20:1-6 describes a present reality that is being brought to a close, so, in that sense, past, present, and future (because it is not yet finished). Why do you believe it to be future only, bdavidc? Why?

Saying “it seems clear to many” sidesteps the issue.

No, it just is what it is.

Scripture is clear.

Agreed.

The binding in Revelation 20 accomplishes something specific...

Agreed.

...and that result is not present now.

Disagree. <smile> Because... what is happening now, and has been since Jesus's advent, and will be until what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26 is finished/complete, is a very present reality.

Grace and peace are not served by softening the text.

Agreed. Or by misunderstanding it. <smile>

The Word of God settles the matter whether it is comfortable or not.

Absolutely. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[bdavidc]

I told you what it accomplishes.


Redefine? No, it explains what the symbolism means. Why do you try to interpret the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture as literally as you possibly can? Is that a good approach to interpreting the book of Revelation? Definitely not.


You are reading Revelation 20 very literally for some reason. Do you not think that spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit is required to understand things like this (read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 before you answer)? The question is what is Revelation 20 talking about when it talks about Satan deceiving the nations. His general ability to deceive or something else? It does not look like you have put much thought into this and that you are relying completely on your own flawed human wisdom to understand the text.


The fact that all we need to do is resist him and he must flee from us supports the Amil view. This was not the case in Old Testament times. In those times Satan held the power of death and no one could resist him. He help people in bondage to the fear of death, as Hebrews 2:14-15. But, now that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we can resist him through the power of the Holy Spirit and he must flee because he knows that he can't contend with the Holy Spirit. He has no power over believers now and no power to keep the gospel from being preached throughout the world, resulting in a great multitude of people that no one can count being set free from the bondage to the fear of death and instead having the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ.


You are the first Premil that I've ever seen who has said this. All other Premils I've seen believe that Satan's binding results in him being incapacitated and unable to do anything at all. I agree that it doesn't say that Satan can do nothing, but we obviously disagree with what it means for him to deceive the nations, with you believing it refers generally to his ability to deceive. But, since you acknowledge that it doesn't say he can do nothing while bound, what exactly do you think Satan can do while he is bound?


I didn't say it was. It's a statement to make you think instead of just assuming Revelation 20 is all literal.


The whole description of the dragon (obviously representing Satan) being bound with a great chain in an abyss/prison is symbolic. But, you take the deceiving of the nations very literally in the sense of his general ability to deceive. Why take that part so literally when the whole scenario is symbolic for something in relation to Satan?


Make up your mind. Is Revelation 20 symbolic or written in straightforward language?


Not according to your understanding of what his binding entails, but I disagree with your understanding of what his binding entails.

You keep trying to paint me with a theological brush rather than address what the text says. Okay, fine. Let me be direct. I am not advocating Premillennialism or Amillennialism or any other man-made construct. I am not arguing for a system. I am reading what the Bible says and refusing to interpret it away.

Verse 3 of Revelation 20 tells us what purpose the binding serves. Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled” ~Revelation 20:3. There is a reason given, a length of time given, and a result stated. Then the Author uses the exact same language when Satan is loosed from his bonds “shall go out to deceive the nations” ~Revelation 20:7–8. The text explains itself.

The scene may be symbolic, but Satan is still bound from doing what is stated. Symbols still point to factual conditions. Jude references angels “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” ~Jude 1:6. No one thinks chains means literal iron links that connect to a shackled ankle, but the angels are still restrained. Same principle.

You keep redefining “deceive the nations” into something narrow because the present world does not fit the condition Revelation describes. Scripture says right now the nations are deceived. “The whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still walks about seeking whom he may devour ~1 Peter 5:8. None of that matches a period where he is restrained from deceiving the nations.

Just because you can resist the devil does not mean Revelation 20 is happening now. James 4:7 is telling believers to resist Satan, not reporting that Satan is being held from worldwide activity. Private victory and public deception are two different categories. You can resist him individually now but that doesn’t mean as a whole the nations are not deceived. The Bible says both.

I am not stating Satan is paralyzed when bound. Revelation does not say that. If Scripture wanted to say that, it would say that. It says he is restrained from deceiving the nations for a season. That season has not happened yet.

It has not happened yet because if Scripture says during that time the whole world is not deceived by Satan, the world today does not fit that description.

I am not saying there is literal chains or a symbolic illustration. I am saying let’s let the Bible define its own terms instead of importing a system from elsewhere and forcing the text to meet those standards. I will take Scripture.

If Scripture says Satan will be bound so that the nations are no longer deceived for a set time, then during that time the nations must not be deceived when he is bound. By Scripture’s own words, that is not the condition of this world today.

That is not building a system. That is reading what is written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since the angel comes from heaven, the great chain will be made of a heavenly material, apparently having strength to it more than an earthly made chain, to be able to limit Satan's movement, arms and legs.

So, you think Satan, a spirit being, will have his arms and legs (do spirit beings have arms and legs?) chained up? That's quite a stretch. Why would you take that text so literally when it's contained within the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible? Explain how that makes any sense.

Also, that the angel has the key of the bottomless pit indicates that the bottomless pit is a supernatural prison, perhaps deep within the earth, or perhaps in another dimension. Our understanding of the bottomless pit, it's features there, is very limited.

In 2Peter2:4, it says... 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

That verse reveals a little more about the location of the bottomless pit. It is located in hell, the place of dead souls.

The Greek word translated as "hell" there is "Tartarus". The place we normally associate with hell is Hades, not Tartarus. The reference to Tartarus is probably just a figurative reference and not to be taken literally as if angels can be literally chained up. Do you think the fallen angels have been literally chained up and have been doing nothing for the past 2,000 years or so?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You keep trying to paint me with a theological brush rather than address what the text says. Okay, fine. Let me be direct. I am not advocating Premillennialism or Amillennialism or any other man-made construct. I am not arguing for a system. I am reading what the Bible says and refusing to interpret it away.

Verse 3 of Revelation 20 tells us what purpose the binding serves. Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled” ~Revelation 20:3. There is a reason given, a length of time given, and a result stated. Then the Author uses the exact same language when Satan is loosed from his bonds “shall go out to deceive the nations” ~Revelation 20:7–8. The text explains itself.

The scene may be symbolic, but Satan is still bound from doing what is stated. Symbols still point to factual conditions. Jude references angels “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” ~Jude 1:6. No one thinks chains means literal iron links that connect to a shackled ankle, but the angels are still restrained. Same principle.

You keep redefining “deceive the nations” into something narrow because the present world does not fit the condition Revelation describes. Scripture says right now the nations are deceived. “The whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still walks about seeking whom he may devour ~1 Peter 5:8. None of that matches a period where he is restrained from deceiving the nations.

Just because you can resist the devil does not mean Revelation 20 is happening now. James 4:7 is telling believers to resist Satan, not reporting that Satan is being held from worldwide activity. Private victory and public deception are two different categories. You can resist him individually now but that doesn’t mean as a whole the nations are not deceived. The Bible says both.

I am not stating Satan is paralyzed when bound. Revelation does not say that. If Scripture wanted to say that, it would say that. It says he is restrained from deceiving the nations for a season. That season has not happened yet.

It has not happened yet because if Scripture says during that time the whole world is not deceived by Satan, the world today does not fit that description.

I am not saying there is literal chains or a symbolic illustration. I am saying let’s let the Bible define its own terms instead of importing a system from elsewhere and forcing the text to meet those standards. I will take Scripture.

If Scripture says Satan will be bound so that the nations are no longer deceived for a set time, then during that time the nations must not be deceived when he is bound. By Scripture’s own words, that is not the condition of this world today.

That is not building a system. That is reading what is written.

You are interpreting the text contained within the most highly symbolic book in the Bible as literally as you possibly can. That is not reading what is written, that is you deciding to use a flawed hyper-literal interpretive approach to the text. And, you are a Premillennialist whether you want to be identified as such or not because you believe the thousand years follows Christ's return.

 

[Davidpt]

Sure, why not? Revelation 20 says NOTHING about Satan being bound from persecuting believers. Your understanding of what it means for him to be bound from deceiving the nations is flawed, so you naturally can't comprehend how he could both persecute believers and deceive the nations at the same time. As long as you continue to think that his binding leaves him completely incapacitated, you will not understand what his binding entails. We have shown you what it entails many times and you just ignore what we say, so what is the point of discussing this yet again now? It's a waste of time.

The point you seem to be overlooking is this. During the war in question the rest of the world, the unsaved, are worshiping the beast, thus equals a time when satan is obviously deceiving the nations.

Revelation 13:11 ¶And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


It even clearly mentions in verse 14 that those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast is being used as means of deceiving them. And that the next verse clearly proves this is paralleling the war mentioned in verse 7.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Then there is the following.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Should we then assume satan has zero to do with deceiving all nations? Should we assume none of this connected with Revelation 13 in any way?

 

[PinSeeker]

If Scripture says Satan will be bound so that the nations are no longer deceived for a set time, then during that time the nations must not be deceived when he is bound.

Hmmmm... Let's focus on something else in this passage for just a moment, bdavidc. In verses 1-2 in Revelation 20, John says he "saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain," and this angel "seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him..." So who do think this "angel" to be, bdavidc? I say it's You-Know-Who, who... a little over 2,000 years ago <smile> ...came down from heaven and... per my post above... "bound the strong man," and has been "plundering his house" (Matthew 12:29) ever since... <smile> You know, as if that was unclear from what I said above... <smile>

By Scripture’s own words, that is not the condition of this world today.

So, by Scripture's own words, that is what's happening in this world today. <smile>

That is not building a system.

Well, the "system" is was built long ago, and one can be an advocate of it, regardless of whether he consciously subscribes to it or not. <smile>

That is reading what is written.

Yes, but reading what is written and understanding what is written correctly are two different things. <smile> It is absolutely possible to do the former and erroneously do the latter. I ask again, as I did shortly ago in my post preceding this one... why... why... do you believe it to be future only, bdavidc? Why?

Grace and peace.