Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[amigo de christo]

Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit....LOL...Which one is the one God.
Find the 3 in 1 scriptures.
The Roman Catholic Church made their doctrines superior to scriptures. You just fell for it.

Guess what my friend .
anyone and i mean anyone attached to anything ecumeincal IS attached to the RCC .
That is a fact . It came of her . Just thought you needed to hear that my friend .

 

[Grailhunter]

Yet again, it is deduced from the entire biblical revelation. Is there a reason you keep repeating the same, tired arguments that have been dealt with numerous times?

You don’t even seem to understand that you’re partway there, since you believe in the deity and distinctness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You err by making them separate gods, when the Bible soundly refutes such an idea.


That the word isn’t in the Bible is not at all relevant.


Except that you don’t, since you believe in three gods.


Again, nothing at all relevant. It strongly appears that you’re deflecting to keep from answering to Scripture:

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Jesus affirms it:

Mar 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
...
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Paul affirms it:

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called godsin heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

James affirms it:

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Jude affirms it:

Jud 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Note especially Isa. 43:10. There was and is only one true God. You say there are three, against all biblical evidence.

I posted over a hundred scriptures proving the 3 in 1 God false.
If you think the 3 in 1 God is biblical, lets see it....lets see the scriptures that the 3 in 1 God is true.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Yahweh is a good name. The Legacy Standard Bible has retained that name for LORD.
You're a mystery Trevor !

I belong to a world wide fellowship, possibly not well known or represented in Italy. The pioneer of my present fellowship gave an exposition of the Yahweh Name in 1858 before a large audience of Jews in New York. This was partly in response to a Trinitarian Jew who arranged the meeting but who was very disappointed with our pioneer's One God, Yahweh, God the Father exposition.

A brief explanation of my understanding of the Yahweh Name has been given in the following thread.

The Yahweh Name

The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14-15. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ...

www.christianityboard.com

Perhaps if I would seek to explain the plurality in the Hebrew word Elohim, I would start with Genesis 1:26 where I believe the "us" and "our" is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father speaking to the Angels and I would reference Psalm 8:6 where Elohim is translated "the Angels". I will let you look this up in a number of different translations.

I have not as yet listened to your two videos, but will possibly start with the second as it is shorter in length. I anticipate many of the usual claims, similar to some that you have already posted, and what was also contained in your other brief video.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

The Protestants did not think that the Catholics were Christians.
With 30,000 Protestant denominations some Protestant denominations do not recognize other Protestant denominations as Christians and some believe only their beliefs are Christian. It is a slippery slope.

I agree that this is a slippery slope - this teachings that are not biblical and presented as if they were.

However, It doesn't matter whether or not Protestants believe Catholics are Christian.
It doesn't matter what one Protestant denomination believes about another one.
We're losing sight of what DOES matter.

What matters is what the Apostles taught, coming from Jesus Himself,
What matter is what they wrote in the NT.

IF we believe what they wrote and accept it...we can be called Christian.
IF we do not believe what they wrote, then what exactly do YOU believe qualifies one as Christian?

If we want to belong to the Christian religion...
we MUST accept what that Christian religion teaches...

Even if we do not understand it.

(as if God could be completely understood)

The term Christian came about defining those that believed in Christ. The Jewish-Christian, basically most of the Apostles and the Gentile-Christians from the Apostle Paul's ministry had different beliefs and practices but both believed in Yeshua and were Christian. So I believe that even though their beliefs are different the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and the Protestants are Christians.

Catholics are definitely Christian.
The Orthodox are definitely Christian

The Protestants?
Most are...I know of an Assy of God church up in Milan that had a splinter group leave that church because they decided that Jesus is not God. Those that left can no longer define themselves as Christian.

Because the very definition of Christian is that we believe Jesus is God...
we are NOT following a man.

(I know that you believe Jesus is God - but you've come up with your own definition of the Godhead).

This has NOTHING to do with the beliefs of any denomination.
DOCTRINE will be different.

The TENETS cannot be different or we change the religion.

From there it is matter of which set of beliefs are correct. As we see on this forum interpretations and asserted interpretations can vary and then you have doctrines that are not necessarily interpretations but are believed over and above scriptures. People as a whole did not have Bibles in their hands until the 16th/17th century and were told by the Catholic Church what to believe and the power of doctrines were elevated over the scriptures. It is not too funny that at one time you could be killed for owning a Bible.

This has nothing to do with this conversastion.

It was ALWAYS taught that Jesus is God.

Maybe you don't quite understand the difference between a doctrine and a tenet?

Not because you don't understand the MEANING of the words...
but because you're unwilling to accept that there ARE tenets.

Then the Guttenberg printing press was invented and the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church and shortly after they started to fracture into denominations. So mostly again it is about which set of beliefs are more correct or mostly wrong. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones I would question if they are Christians.....more like Yahwists. Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists are Christians,

I agree.
You're properly using the term Christian.

Calvinists have a different doctrinal system...
but they ARE Christian.

A person that believe in OSAS could be Christian IF he believes Christian tenets.

I battle with universalists on here and they never state exctly what each individual one believes...so no comment.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian because they don't believe Jesus is God.

Of course, this does not mean that some judgement is being made as to salvation...
only God knows who is saved.

they just got it way wrong. And that is not to say that Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists will not go to Heaven, it is what their beliefs cause them to do that might send them to Hell.

That's an interesting statement.
So you believe that wrong doctrine can lead one to go to hell?

HOW is that?

If you believe that Grace is a license to sin and if you preach that to others and cause them to sin that might award you to Hell.

Ah.
I see.
OK, I have to agree.

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness,


Ephesians 5:6
6 See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the [a]sons of disobedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

I posted over a hundred scriptures proving the 3 in 1 God false.
If you think the 3 in 1 God is biblical, lets see it....lets see the scriptures that the 3 in 1 God is true.

GH
This came up when I was closing down....
It would be good to go over each one of your verses and discuss...
the problem is that it would be incredibly time consuming.

What if we just trusted the NT and the early church for our belief system?
Isn't that good enough?

How could we be reading the same NT and come up with such different beliefs?

Is it not MAN that is disrupting what the Apostles taught with new ideas?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Found the other one with the two Jews!

I have now listened to this second video and in the process I took fairly thorough reference notes to indicate what passage was being discussed and what time on the video he speaks of this particular passage or concept. He likes to use the phrase as his theme "The Mysterious Unity of God". I consider that the subject has been to some extent hidden, but has now been fully revealed in Jesus.

I will briefly mention a few things. He seeks to counter the idea that "Jesus is just a man whom God adopted as His Son". I also reject this notion as I believe that Jesus is a human, The Son of God by birth, character and resurrection - no adoption here.

He goes to some length to speak of how God is in two places at once, dwelling in the Tabernacle or Temple and at the same time in Heaven. I find this very shallow reasoning. He then compares this with John 1:14. Jesus is truly the fulfillment of ALL that was depicted in the Tabernacle and Temple.

He recalls his theme by stating the Mysterious Unity of God in Creation when considering Genesis 1;26. I have already mentioned that I believe that God is conversing with the Angels.

He mentions Proverbs 8:27-31 and states that there was a person with God in the creation and he calls this person "Lady Wisdom", but he does not really explain this as a personification of God's Wisdom.

Other passages that he mentions are Exodus 3:2-8, Judges 6, Genesis 18 and Exodus 33:18-23. Instead of clarifying these, they are used to obscure what can be understood in order to paint a picture of Mystery.

He also spends some time in the NT mainly showing that the Yahweh Name is applied to Jesus, and I agree with this, but not the way he understands this. Refer to my thread "The Yahweh Name".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Wrangler]

Once again, “person” was used as the closest approximation for human understanding of God’s revelation of himself.

Closest approximation? Once again, you are denying definitions. Being = Person. Now you are also making an appeal to Ignorance. Obviously, you did not look up the definitions.

Your doctrine relies on many fallacies. The most absurd being to parse synonyms. Begotten = Created. Person = Being.

 

[Wrangler]

The ever present anti-Trinitarian straw man. Do any of you actually know the doctrine?

Not a strain, definition.

 

[Lambano]

Yet again, it is deduced from the entire biblical revelation. Is there a reason you keep repeating the same, tired arguments that have been dealt with numerous times?

Specifically, Trinity is a logical deduction designed to make coherent the following doctrines that ARE found in the Bible:

• There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4)
• Jesus Christ is the son of God (Mark 1:1 and others)
• Christ existed prior to, and was involved in, Creation; a function attributed to God. (John 1:1, Colossians 1:16)

And a couple of hundred years to work out a few kinks like whether Christ was a subordinate divine being (Arius), a single person (Praxeas), and others. The ECFs weren't fools and were not uneducated. They knew it is self-contradictory.

It helps that the Church establishment burned the writings of those who didn't align with the official doctrine.

That the word isn’t in the Bible is not at all relevant.

I'm glad somebody said it.

 

[Lambano]

Here's a more nuanced historical summary by Bart Ehrman, someone who is NOT our friend, but he did the historical research and knows his stuff.

The movement toward a doctrine of the Trinity begins with the earliest Christian belief among Jesus’ strictly monotheistic followers that Jesus was in some sense God, but that God the Father was God, and yet there was only one God.​

As time went on and Christians thought about it more and more, they elevated what it meant to say that Jesus was God, developing “higher” Christological views.. These developments did not happen all at the same time or in the same way; different Christians thought (and still think) different things, at the same time. But some Christians came to believe that Jesus became divine not at the resurrection but at his baptism; others thought it happened at the point of his conception; others thought that he had been divine before coming into the world. All these views are represented in the New Testament itself.​

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree that this is a slippery slope - this teachings that are not biblical and presented as if they were.

However, It doesn't matter whether or not Protestants believe Catholics are Christian.
It doesn't matter what one Protestant denomination believes about another one.
We're losing sight of what DOES matter.

What matters is what the Apostles taught, coming from Jesus Himself,
What matter is what they wrote in the NT.

IF we believe what they wrote and accept it...we can be called Christian.
IF we do not believe what they wrote, then what exactly do YOU believe qualifies one as Christian?

If we want to belong to the Christian religion...
we MUST accept what that Christian religion teaches...

Even if we do not understand it.

(as if God could be completely understood)

Catholics are definitely Christian.
The Orthodox are definitely Christian

The Protestants?
Most are...I know of an Assy of God church up in Milan that had a splinter group leave that church because they decided that Jesus is not God. Those that left can no longer define themselves as Christian.

Because the very definition of Christian is that we believe Jesus is God...
we are NOT following a man.

(I know that you believe Jesus is God - but you've come up with your own definition of the Godhead).

This has NOTHING to do with the beliefs of any denomination.
DOCTRINE will be different.

The TENETS cannot be different or we change the religion.

This has nothing to do with this conversastion.

It was ALWAYS taught that Jesus is God.

Maybe you don't quite understand the difference between a doctrine and a tenet?

Not because you don't understand the MEANING of the words...
but because you're unwilling to accept that there ARE tenets.

I agree.
You're properly using the term Christian.

Calvinists have a different doctrinal system...
but they ARE Christian.

A person that believe in OSAS could be Christian IF he believes Christian tenets.

I battle with universalists on here and they never state exctly what each individual one believes...so no comment.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian because they don't believe Jesus is God.

Of course, this does not mean that some judgement is being made as to salvation...
only God knows who is saved.

That's an interesting statement.
So you believe that wrong doctrine can lead one to go to hell?

HOW is that?


Ah.
I see.
OK, I have to agree.

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness,


Ephesians 5:6
6 See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the [a]sons of disobedience.

Theology is about words and you are hung up on the words of men rather than what the scriptures teach.
Your favorite phrase....Jesus is God....is nowhere to be found in the scriptures but in your mind and only in your mind it is. Doctrine before scriptures is the Catholic way.

It is amazing to me that you say it was always taught that Jesus is God.......Yeap taught by men....not by Yeshua or the Apostles....taught by the Catholic Church.....

Peter said....You are the Son of the Living God.
The Apostles called Him Lord.
Yeshua called Yahweh His Father and His God.

The truth is there if you want to know the truth.....but making statements like "always" mean it is clear.....
What you believe is only clear in man made doctrine.

They have eyes but cannot see and they have ears but cannot hear.....

There is 1 Godhead that consist of 3 full-fledged Gods that sit on 3 thrones in Heaven and Yeshua sits to the right of Yahweh. Praise God.....

 

[Grailhunter]

GH
This came up when I was closing down....
It would be good to go over each one of your verses and discuss...
the problem is that it would be incredibly time consuming.

What if we just trusted the NT and the early church for our belief system?
Isn't that good enough?

How could we be reading the same NT and come up with such different beliefs?

Is it not MAN that is disrupting what the Apostles taught with new ideas?

The problem is that you believe things are there that are not there.
You are loyal to doctrine and not scriptures. And you think they say things that they do not.
It was not hard to come up with over hundred scriptures.....and a Father says He is pleased with HIs Son....
that it 2 people my gosh!!! Just common sense. The Father loves the Son....He does not love Himself.....that is clear.....Love cannot exist with 1 person. What you believe is not. Yahweh begot a Son.....He did not beget Himself.....clear and truth but it is hard for you to understand and accept. Because your mind is all mucked up with teaching of doctrine.....

 

[JLB]

I posted over a hundred scriptures proving the 3 in 1 God false.
If you think the 3 in 1 God is biblical, lets see it....lets see the scriptures that the 3 in 1 God is true.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was manifested in the flesh, the Father or the Son?

 

[Grailhunter]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was manifested in the flesh, the Father or the Son?

Yahweh so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....plain a simple.
Peter said, You are the Son of the living God.
Yeshua said that Yahweh is His God.
Yeshua returned to His Father and sits to the right of Him on a throne

The Catholics debated the nature of Yahweh and Yeshua but never tackled what the Holy Spirit was about.
But it all was a fool's folly because we cannot comprehend their nature. And we can speculate on their interconnections, but only at the level of speculation....could it even be explained in human terms.

1st Timothy 3:16 NASB
16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:

He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.

A scripture of great theological speculation but no agreement on what it means or if it came from an unknown writing.

 

[amigo de christo]

Pretty funny Amigo !
But so true.

And now for the answer to the riddle i gave .
how can love lead one into loving a god of unbeleif .
IT IS NOT the love of GOD but is of the world .
Think about that my friend .
For false love , love that is of the world and darkness leads one into accepting what is contrary to GOD .
And seeing that as Being love .
example . oh GOD is love , then use a version of love that makes it seem like
GOD is okay with false religoins , is okay with certain sins . That GOD is so loving
he accepts sin and even unbeleif . Makes it seem like whether one beleives or not , ITS ALL gonna b e okay
IN the end . ITS a false l ove . FOR JESUS warned about what would come upon those who believed not
But this love DOES NOT do that , it makes it seem like Because GOD is love
EVERYTHING jus gonna b e okay in the end . Satan knows how to lie and to seduce
but remember HE is not love and he do as he do for he desires THEIR DESTRUCTION at their end as HE too will be destroyed .

 

[amigo de christo]

The dark one always will convince man to do and to beleive that which he ought not to do and to beleive .
And marvel not that he can make it seem as though its loving .
For he will make it seem as though to correct sin and error , IS NOT loving but is judgmental .
And yet
YE shall not hate your neighbor in your heart you shall correct him and NOT allow sin upon him .
That is why He has come , to st eal , to kill and to d estroy
so he will preach a love that allows sin and UNBELEIF to remain upon them . FLEE the eucmencial realm of interfaith
and never LOOK back .

 

[amigo de christo]

I agree that this is a slippery slope - this teachings that are not biblical and presented as if they were.

However, It doesn't matter whether or not Protestants believe Catholics are Christian.
It doesn't matter what one Protestant denomination believes about another one.
We're losing sight of what DOES matter.

What matters is what the Apostles taught, coming from Jesus Himself,
What matter is what they wrote in the NT.

IF we believe what they wrote and accept it...we can be called Christian.
IF we do not believe what they wrote, then what exactly do YOU believe qualifies one as Christian?

If we want to belong to the Christian religion...
we MUST accept what that Christian religion teaches...

Even if we do not understand it.

(as if God could be completely understood)

Catholics are definitely Christian.
The Orthodox are definitely Christian

The Protestants?
Most are...I know of an Assy of God church up in Milan that had a splinter group leave that church because they decided that Jesus is not God. Those that left can no longer define themselves as Christian.

Because the very definition of Christian is that we believe Jesus is God...
we are NOT following a man.

(I know that you believe Jesus is God - but you've come up with your own definition of the Godhead).

This has NOTHING to do with the beliefs of any denomination.
DOCTRINE will be different.

The TENETS cannot be different or we change the religion.

This has nothing to do with this conversastion.

It was ALWAYS taught that Jesus is God.

Maybe you don't quite understand the difference between a doctrine and a tenet?

Not because you don't understand the MEANING of the words...
but because you're unwilling to accept that there ARE tenets.

I agree.
You're properly using the term Christian.

Calvinists have a different doctrinal system...
but they ARE Christian.

A person that believe in OSAS could be Christian IF he believes Christian tenets.

I battle with universalists on here and they never state exctly what each individual one believes...so no comment.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian because they don't believe Jesus is God.

Of course, this does not mean that some judgement is being made as to salvation...
only God knows who is saved.

That's an interesting statement.
So you believe that wrong doctrine can lead one to go to hell?

HOW is that?


Ah.
I see.
OK, I have to agree.

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness,


Ephesians 5:6
6 See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the [a]sons of disobedience.

More and more it is becoming the mindset of mainstream churches ,
that those who keep and adhere to the core fundam ental teachings
are seen as NOT being christian , not be loving , but being even haters .
THIS will be seen even with the very gospel , as even now
when i have tried to warn , as have others , that all other religoins are not of GOD
they are calling for the judge not hate not card and believing that even these false religoins
somehow know GOD too . ITS getting worse all the time and will get only worse .
SOON the merged realm of this ecumeincal work ,
will call for the crusades once again . And beleive me when i say
it will be against the sheep who did not conform to their image of what they beleived was loving , was love and was GOD .
its gonna peak .

 

[Marvelloustime]

And now for the answer to the riddle i gave .
how can love lead one into loving a god of unbeleif .
IT IS NOT the love of GOD but is of the world .
Think about that my friend .
For false love , love that is of the world and darkness leads one into accepting what is contrary to GOD .
And seeing that as Being love .
example . oh GOD is love , then use a version of love that makes it seem like
GOD is okay with false religoins , is okay with certain sins . That GOD is so loving
he accepts sin and even unbeleif . Makes it seem like whether one beleives or not , ITS ALL gonna b e okay
IN the end . ITS a false l ove . FOR JESUS warned about what would come upon those who believed not
But this love DOES NOT do that , it makes it seem like Because GOD is love
EVERYTHING jus gonna b e okay in the end . Satan knows how to lie and to seduce
but remember HE is not love and he do as he do for he desires THEIR DESTRUCTION at their end as HE too will be destroyed .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

The dark one always will convince man to do and to beleive that which he ought not to do and to beleive .
And marvel not that he can make it seem as though its loving .
For he will make it seem as though to correct sin and error , IS NOT loving but is judgmental .
And yet
YE shall not hate your neighbor in your heart you shall correct him and NOT allow sin upon him .
That is why He has come , to st eal , to kill and to d estroy
so he will preach a love that allows sin and UNBELEIF to remain upon them . FLEE the eucmencial realm of interfaith
and never LOOK back .

@amigo de christo

 

[Justified]

I posted over a hundred scriptures proving the 3 in 1 God false.

Again, you haven’t posted a single one. They may defeat your straw man but not the actual doctrine of the Trinity.

If you think the 3 in 1 God is biblical, lets see it....lets see the scriptures that the 3 in 1 God is true.

It’s much easier to first acknowledge the clear biblical teaching that the Father is truly God, the Son is truly God, and the Holy Spirit is truly God, yet they are all distinct. We agree on those things.

The issue is that the Bible repeatedly refutes tritheism—there was and is only one true God, as the verses I have given prove. Therefore, the best explanation that remains is the doctrine of the Trinity.