Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

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Soyeong

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Of course the Torah is truth

JESUS is the Author of Torah

Torah Speaks and Directs us to JESUS

JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE

understand???
The Torah is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so everything that is true about Jesus is also true about the Torah insofar as he is the embodiment of it. The Torah is the way (1 Kings 2:1-3), the truth (Psalm 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to embody the Torah through his works, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father.

The law was a Tutor:
#1 - that declared to us God's righteousness for mankind as we waited for MESSIAH
#2 - The law revealed our inescapable nature to commit sin
#3 - And the inescapable REQUIREMENT for blood to atone for our sins
#4 - to reveal that animal blood sacrifice CANNOT wash away our sins
#5 - to reveal that FAITH in the WORD of GOD is what Pleases GOD above ritual service
#6 - to reveal the absolute NEED of a Savior
#7 - and that Savior is GOD
The Torah leads us to Christ because he is the embodiment of it and it was given to teach us how to know Him through following his example of embodying it, but does to lead us him so that we can then reject everything that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that was have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to embody the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not embodying it. The Torah does not just reveal our need for a Savior but is also the way that he is saving us.
 

Anchorite

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The Torah is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so everything that is true about Jesus is also true about the Torah insofar as he is the embodiment of it. The Torah is the way (1 Kings 2:1-3), the truth (Psalm 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to embody the Torah through his works, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father.


The Torah leads us to Christ because he is the embodiment of it and it was given to teach us how to know Him through following his example of embodying it, but does to lead us him so that we can then reject everything that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that was have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to embody the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not embodying it. The Torah does not just reveal our need for a Savior but is also the way that he is saving us.
Who says we are not obeying the Torah?

By complying with the Sermon on the Mount and the church epistles, we are in fellowship with the Logos.

But we do not have to become Jewish.
 

Soyeong

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I believe we are conflating two things that Scripture distinguishes: God’s eternal moral character and the Mosaic covenant as a covenant administration.
The Bible frequently uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of the Torah, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Torah (Matthew 23:23), and it could not be accurately described as such if it were not God instructions for how to embody His character traits. God's way is the way to know Him through embodying His character traits, such as with Genesis 18:19, where God knew Abraham by teaching him how to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised, and in 1 Kings 2:1-, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so Scripture does not distinguish between God's eternal moral character and the Torah, but rather it equates them.

The fact that God's righteousness is eternal does not mean that every covenant command given under Moses remains binding in the same way under the New Covenant.
The fact that God's righteousness and righteous laws are eternal means that everything that the God's covenants teach us about how to embody His righteousness is cumulatively valid and binding regardless of which covenant covenant someone is under, if any. The same is true for God's holiness as well as the other character traits of God that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody. The only way that we should cease to follow God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy would be if God were to cease to be holy, but God's holiness is eternal, therefore all of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy are also eternal and are cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.

Hebrews 8:13
Any number of covenants that include instructions for how to embody God's character traits can be made and become obsolete, but the way to embody God's character traits will always remains the same. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete does not mean that the New Covenant does not involve following the Torah.

Hebrews 7:12
If the way to be holy as God is holy could change, then God's holiness would not be eternal, and the same is true for God's other character traits, so Hebrew 7:12 is not referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, but in regard to its administration. While the New Covenant is superior, it does not involve departing from God's Word.

Regarding Jeremiah 31:33, the promise is that God would write his law upon the hearts of his people. But the question is, which law is being written?
In Jeremiah 31:33, it uses to Hebrew word "Torah", which refers to the Law of Moses. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send is Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30, it forms the basis for the New Covenant by prophesying about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah, which is what Jeremiah and Ezekiel are speaking in regard to.

Romans 7:6
We need to be release from the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

The problem was never that God's law was bad. The problem was that the written commandment could reveal sin but could not transform the heart. The Spirit accomplishes what the written code could not do.
A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is not holy, righteous, and good, so Romans 7:5 and 7:12 are not both referring to the Law of God. The problem is that you are taking verses that are speaking about the law of sin and are applying them as if they were speaking about the Law of God. The Spirit transforming our heart does not lead us to do anything that is not in accordance with the Torah, but rather the Spirit transforming our heart is so that we will obey it.

Romans 8:3-4
The righteous requirement of the Law of God is fulfilled by those who walk in the Spirit because the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it.

This is why Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets with love for God and love for neighbor. Love does not contradict God's commands; it reveals their true purpose. But the New Testament repeatedly teaches that believers are under the law of Christ rather than under the Sinai covenant.
Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God our our neighbor, so the Spirit leading us to love is not leading us to do something that is not in accordance with obeying everything In the Torah. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so I see no justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is not in perfect accordance with everything that Chris taught and every word that comes from the mouth of God.

1 Corinthians 9:20
In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not outside the Law of God but under the Law of Christ, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of Christ.

Regarding Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council was discussing whether Gentiles are required to become circumcised (become Jews) in order to become saved (Acts 15:1, 11). Everything that Peter argued in Acts 15:6-11 was in support of Gentiles obeying the Torah, which is in accordance with Gentiles coming under the New Covenant. The yoke that no one could bear does not refer to the Torah but to salvation by circumcision. If Acts 15:10 had been referring to the Torah, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God.

The issue was not whether God's commands were good. The issue was whether Gentiles had to enter the covenant given through Moses in order to belong to God's people.The apostles did not teach believers to disregard holiness. They taught believers to be transformed into Christ's image by the Spirit.
They did not mention anyone about Gentiles coming under the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and while Gentiles are not required to become Jews in order to become followers of Jesus, Gentiles can't become followers of Jesus while refusing to follow what he taught. It is contradictory for someone to be in the image of Christ while not following his example of obedience to the Torah.

Jesus is indeed the perfect revelation of God's character. But He did not merely show us how to keep Sinai; He inaugurated the New Covenant through His blood. "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you." Luke 22:20
The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). So if someone wants nothing to do with obeying the Torah, then they also want nothing to do with the New Covenant.

The question is therefore not whether we obey God. We absolutely do. The question is: are we obeying God through the covenant mediated by Moses, or through the better covenant mediated by Christ?

The New Testament answer is that Christ is the fulfillment, the mediator, and the head of the New Covenant. We do not abandon God's righteousness; we receive it through Christ and walk in it by the Spirit. :Thumbsup:
Both covenants involve following the Torah, so the question is moot. Christ embodied the righteousness of God through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the way that we have the gift of getting to live when we received the righteousness of God through Christ and walk in it by the Spirit.
 

Soyeong

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Who says we are not obeying the Torah?
Most Christians are opposed to following Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Torah. Are you?

By complying with the Sermon on the Mount and the church epistles, we are in fellowship with the Logos.
Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the OT hundreds of times in order to support what they were saying, so it does not work for someone to take the position that we should only follow what they taught but not what they considered to be an authoritative source. For example, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, which includes affirming everything that God spoke to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:31-33. Everything that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount was based on what was taught in the OT.

But we do not have to become Jewish.
Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and while Gentiles are not required to become Jewish in order to become followers of Jesus, Gentiles can't become followers of Jesus instead of becoming followers of what he taught.
 

Angelina

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@Soyeong,
Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. I appreciate your desire to uphold God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness. We agree that God's character never changes and that the Holy Spirit leads believers into holiness rather than lawlessness.

However, I think our discussion has moved away from the original question of this thread.

The title is "Christians are in Rebellion against God for Not Following the Torah." That is a very specific claim. To establish that claim from Scripture, it is not enough to show that the Torah reflects God's character or that God's moral character is eternal. I agree with both of those statements.

The question is whether the New Testament teaches that New Covenant believers are in rebellion against God if they are not living under the Torah as the governing rule of the New Covenant.

That is where I believe the New Testament answers differently.

You have repeatedly equated God's eternal character with the Mosaic Torah itself. I believe Scripture distinguishes between the two.

God's righteousness is eternal because God is eternal. The Mosaic Law is a holy revelation given by God, but it was also given within a specific covenant made with Israel through Moses.

Hebrews says, "By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete." Hebrews 8:13
The writer is not saying God's holiness became obsolete. He is speaking about the covenant.

Likewise, Hebrews 7:12 says that with a change of the priesthood there is necessarily a change of the law. The argument throughout Hebrews is covenantal, not merely administrative. The Levitical priesthood, sacrifices, and temple ministry were all ordained by God, yet Scripture itself says they have been fulfilled in Christ.

That does not diminish God's character. It magnifies Christ's work.

Regarding Jeremiah 31:33, I agree that the Hebrew word is Torah. But Hebrews does not conclude that every covenant obligation given through Moses continues unchanged. Instead, Hebrews spends several chapters explaining why the New Covenant is superior because Christ has fulfilled what the Old Covenant anticipated.

If Hebrews intended to teach that the Mosaic covenant simply continues unchanged internally, much of the book's argument would lose its force.

You also continue to interpret Romans 7 as though every occurrence of "law" must refer either to the Law of Moses or the law of sin. I agree that Paul uses "law" in different ways, and context determines which he means.

However, Romans 7:6 plainly says: "But now we have been released from the law... so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."
Paul immediately follows this by affirming: "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Romans 7:12
Those two statements are not contradictory. Paul can affirm the goodness of the Law while also teaching that believers are no longer under it as a covenant administration because they have died with Christ.

Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 Paul distinguishes between being "under the law" and being "under the law of Christ." If those expressions are identical, Paul's contrast becomes difficult to explain.

Regarding Acts 15, I understand your view that the issue was circumcision for salvation. But the broader question before the council was, "What covenant obligations should be placed upon believing Gentiles?"

If the apostles believed that all Gentile believers were expected to keep the whole Torah under the New Covenant, Acts 15 was the ideal place to say so. Instead, they did not place the yoke of the Mosaic Law upon them.

Most importantly, I believe the New Testament consistently directs our attention to Christ Himself. Jesus said:
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life." John 5:39-40

The purpose of the law was never to become the final destination. Its purpose was to bear witness to Christ.

Paul, who was once blameless according to the righteousness found in the Law Philippians 3:6, later counted all of that as loss compared with knowing Christ Philippians 3:7-9. His confidence was no longer in covenant identity or Torah observance, but in the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ.

That brings me back to the original proposition of this thread. :clmSmlx

Can we honestly say that Christians who have trusted in Christ, received the Holy Spirit, love God, love their neighbor, and walk in holiness are
in rebellion against God because they do not observe the Torah as you understand it?

I do not believe the apostles ever made that accusation.

Rather, they consistently taught that salvation is through Christ alone, that believers walk by the Spirit, and that the righteous life produced by the Spirit fulfills the very purpose toward which the Law pointed.

Christ is not leading us away from God's righteousness. He is the fulfilment of it. :Thumbsup: