False Christs, False Prophets and False Teachers. These are the days we live in.

[shepherdsword]

There is a plague in this modern era. It is an infectious agent running amok in the body of Christ. It is an infirmity of lies and deception. It is a vile contagion that infects many and they in turn infect others. It's ultimate goal is the damnation of the soul.

Let's look at some scripture:

Mt 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;(or saying "I am anointed") and shall deceive many.


Ac 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Ti 4:1-7
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Pe 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Here we see Jude COMMADING us to contend and destroy these false doctrines

Jude 3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what do we have?
1) They will claim some special "anointing"
2) They will deceive many
3) They will draw disciples after themselves and not spare the flock
4) They will depart from saving faith
5)They will speak with a seared conscious
6) They will forbid to marry
7) They will try and enforce some dietary laws
8) They will not endure sound doctrine
9) They will cater teaching to the lust of men
10) They will deny the Lord who bought them and teach damnable heresies
11) They will cause the gospel to be evil spoken of
12) They will alure through covetousness
13) They will make merchandise of God's people
14) They will turn grace into lasciviousness
15) They will deny the true God.

Look around, are these the days we live in? If not now then when? If not us then who?


Isa 21:12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will inquire, inquire ye: return, come.

Let's inquire just what exactly these damnable heresies are and combat them with the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. With so many warnings about this are we not responsible?

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

 

[JustMe]

There is a plague in this modern era. It is an infectious agent running amok in the body of Christ. It is an infirmity of lies and deception. It is a vile contagion that infects many and they in turn infect others. It's ultimate goal is the damnation of the soul.

Let's look at some scripture:

Mt 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;(or saying "I am anointed") and shall deceive many.


Ac 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Ti 4:1-7
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Pe 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Here we see Jude COMMADING us to contend and destroy these false doctrines

Jude 3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what do we have?
1) They will claim some special "anointing"
2) They will deceive many
3) They will draw disciples after themselves and not spare the flock
4) They will depart from saving faith
5)They will speak with a seared conscious
6) They will forbid to marry
7) They will try and enforce some dietary laws
8) They will not endure sound doctrine
9) They will cater teaching to the lust of men
10) They will deny the Lord who bought them and teach damnable heresies
11) They will cause the gospel to be evil spoken of
12) They will alure through covetousness
13) They will make merchandise of God's people
14) They will turn grace into lasciviousness
15) They will deny the true God.

Look around, are these the days we live in? If not now then when? If not us then who?


Isa 21:12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will inquire, inquire ye: return, come.

Let's inquire just what exactly these damnable heresies are and combat them with the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. With so many warnings about this are we not responsible?

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

I think you have come late to the party, very late. Try the 1st century AD when this 'contagion' first appeared and first began to thrive. Nothing has changed today in spiritual realm. The spirit of life, and of death have been warring against each other in every single generation since Christ.

 

[shepherdsword]

I think you have come late to the party, very late. Try the 1st century AD when this 'contagion' first appeared and first began to thrive. Nothing has changed today in spiritual realm. The spirit of life, and of death have been warring against each other in every single generation since Christ.

It is even more prevalent today as we enter into the great apostacy.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We have fully entered into this time:

2 Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

 

[JustMe]

It is even more prevalent today as we enter into the great apostacy.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We have fully entered into this time:

2 Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

I'm one of those rare ones, as I believe the worst kinds of spiritual deceptions have already come to pass and are all known and common today - nothing has changed since and into tomorrow until 'all the curtains' come down. .

It is all now programmed into the psyche and the minds of people. It is all set. Those who are Catholic or Protestant will remain that way in generations going forward. And if they unite even with other religions nothing has changed, as they are of the same cloth. The other opposing factions, those truly of God, have no labels to carry around in public, and they never did.

The apostate church and its position in the world was already set in during Christ's time, and completed by 70 AD. Nothing has changed since. We are riding them out today. The last days of spiritual tribulation began in the 1st Century and rages on today.

 

[shepherdsword]

I'm one of those rare ones, as I believe the worst kinds of spiritual deceptions have already come to pass and are all known and common today - nothing has changed since and into tomorrow until 'all the curtains' come down. .

It is all now programmed into the psyche and the minds of people. It is all set. Those who are Catholic or Protestant will remain that way in generations going forward. And if they unite even with other religions nothing has changed, as they are of the same cloth. The other opposing factions, those truly of God, have no labels to carry around in public, and they never did.

The apostate church and its position in the world was already set in during Christ's time, and completed by 70 AD. Nothing has changed since. We are riding them out today. The last days of spiritual tribulation began in the 1st Century and rages on today.

No one who is deceived knows he is deceived. A word of wisdom for us all.

 

[JustMe]

No one who is deceived knows he is deceived. A word of wisdom for us all.

True, unless the Spirit of God reveals the truth on these matters to his people.

 

[PinSeeker]

...the worst kinds of spiritual deceptions have already come to pass and are all known and common today - nothing has changed since and into tomorrow until 'all the curtains' come down. .

Right... "nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

The last days of spiritual tribulation began in the 1st Century and rages on today.

Right... "but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:2); "You have laid up treasure in the last days" (James 5:3); "scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires" (2 Peter 3:3)...

Grace and peace to you, JM.

 

[ScottA]

There is a plague in this modern era. It is an infectious agent running amok in the body of Christ. It is an infirmity of lies and deception. It is a vile contagion that infects many and they in turn infect others. It's ultimate goal is the damnation of the soul.

Let's look at some scripture:

Mt 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;(or saying "I am anointed") and shall deceive many.


Ac 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Ti 4:1-7
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Pe 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Here we see Jude COMMADING us to contend and destroy these false doctrines

Jude 3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what do we have?
1) They will claim some special "anointing"
2) They will deceive many
3) They will draw disciples after themselves and not spare the flock
4) They will depart from saving faith
5)They will speak with a seared conscious
6) They will forbid to marry
7) They will try and enforce some dietary laws
8) They will not endure sound doctrine
9) They will cater teaching to the lust of men
10) They will deny the Lord who bought them and teach damnable heresies
11) They will cause the gospel to be evil spoken of
12) They will alure through covetousness
13) They will make merchandise of God's people
14) They will turn grace into lasciviousness
15) They will deny the true God.

Look around, are these the days we live in? If not now then when? If not us then who?


Isa 21:12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will inquire, inquire ye: return, come.

Let's inquire just what exactly these damnable heresies are and combat them with the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. With so many warnings about this are we not responsible?

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

That is good, but only half--indeed, only the smaller half.

Both are true, and we should all be aware of both the evil and the good. However, the other half is the best part--the good and the true--and the list is perhaps even greater, for it regards the Spirit which--is greater. I am not going to list them all--there's just too many. But here are a few:

• “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” Luke 11:15
• He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9, Matthew 13:43
• It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
• But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. Mark 13:11
• For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. Acts 2:15-18
• Do not quench the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19
• And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16
• “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:29, Revelation 3:6, Revelation 3:13, Revelation 3:22

So, yes, there are many who are false--but also those, though they may be few, who are true and from God. And just as we should be against the false--we should also be for the true--even with expectation, for this is what all of history has waited for.

 

[JustMe]

Right... "nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9).


Right... "but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:2); "You have laid up treasure in the last days" (James 5:3); "scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires" (2 Peter 3:3)...

Grace and peace to you, JM.

Thank you and the same to you my friend.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a plague in this modern era. It is an infectious agent running amok in the body of Christ. It is an infirmity of lies and deception. It is a vile contagion that infects many and they in turn infect others. It's ultimate goal is the damnation of the soul.

Let's look at some scripture:

Mt 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;(or saying "I am anointed") and shall deceive many.


Ac 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Ti 4:1-7
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Pe 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Here we see Jude COMMADING us to contend and destroy these false doctrines

Jude 3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what do we have?
1) They will claim some special "anointing"
2) They will deceive many
3) They will draw disciples after themselves and not spare the flock
4) They will depart from saving faith
5)They will speak with a seared conscious
6) They will forbid to marry
7) They will try and enforce some dietary laws
8) They will not endure sound doctrine
9) They will cater teaching to the lust of men
10) They will deny the Lord who bought them and teach damnable heresies
11) They will cause the gospel to be evil spoken of
12) They will alure through covetousness
13) They will make merchandise of God's people
14) They will turn grace into lasciviousness
15) They will deny the true God.

Look around, are these the days we live in? If not now then when? If not us then who?


Isa 21:12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will inquire, inquire ye: return, come.

Let's inquire just what exactly these damnable heresies are and combat them with the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. With so many warnings about this are we not responsible?

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Just saw this.
Too late to reply.
Marking it for tomorrow....
'night

 

[GodsGrace]

Right... "nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9).


Right... "but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:2); "You have laid up treasure in the last days" (James 5:3); "scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires" (2 Peter 3:3)...

Grace and peace to you, JM.

The last days.
Yes.
New doctrine never before heard of.
Starting around the 1500's maybe?
Yes.
It's called Reformed theology.

THE LAST DAYS certainly were NOT when Jesus was speaking about the last days.

But in THESE last days, which they probably are...
many new and heretical beliefs abound.
From as early as 200 years ago.

Twisting scripture.
Demonic teachings.
Falling away from THE FAITH.

1 Timothy 4:1
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

[PinSeeker]

The last days.
Yes.
New doctrine never before heard of.

I wouldn’t call it a “doctrine,” per se; it just is what it is… and it’s been around a good long time… a little north of two millennia now… <smile> You obviously disagree, and that’s… okay. <smile>

Starting around the 1500's maybe?

Well no, the first person to spread it far and wide was Augustine, over a thousand years prior, 12, 13 centuries (fourth and fifth) or so. But he was not the first to advocate the what later came to the be called Reformed theology.

It's called Reformed theology.

Well, since Martin Luther, and the Reformation. October, 1715…. But the theology and doctrines were around loooooong before that. You know, the main impetus of the Reformation was to return Christianity to its Biblical roots…

THE LAST DAYS certainly were NOT when Jesus was speaking about the last days.

Well, then what do you think the writer of Hebrews meant when he wrote that “in these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son”…? But to your assertion here, based on this statement in Hebrews 1:2, these last days are at least from His ascension, and especially Pentecost 40 days later. Now me, personally ~ and I’m not sure all Reformed folks would agree, but that’s not a big honkin’ deal <smile> ~ I say the last days began at His birth to of Mary, because He said and did great things, of course, and I would asset that the Father was speaking by His Son even while He was here in Person, even in that day.

But in THESE last days, which they probably are...

They are, yes. I get what you mean though… <smile>

many new and heretical beliefs abound.
From as early as 200 years ago.

2000, I’m guessing you mean… oh well no, maybe you did actually mean 200; okay, no matter. Yes, as I said, nothing new under the sun…

Twisting scripture. Demonic teachings.

There’s a lot of that out there, but fortunately we have the Holy Spirit to keep us from such things… and Jesus, by the Spirit, just as He said He would be, “to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). And hey, notice he didn’t say, “to the end of the coming age,” or “to the end of the age yet to come.” <smile>

Falling away from THE FAITH.

1 Timothy 4:1
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Indeed. But remember why those who fall away do so… Hebrews 3:12 ~ “Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God” ~ and 1 John 2:18-19 ~ “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us” ~ are helpful here.

Grace and peace to you, Christian!

 

[GodsGrace]

I wouldn’t call it a “doctrine,” per se; it just is what it is… and it’s been around a good long time… a little north of two millennia now… <smile> You obviously disagree, and that’s… okay. <smile>


Well no, the first person to spread it far and wide was Augustine, over a thousand years prior, 12, 13 centuries (fourth and fifth) or so. But he was not the first to advocate the what later came to the be called Reformed theology.

Augustine.
A manachaen heretic that decided to become Catholic.
Bothered by his sinning by fornication that he could not control.
Instead of accepting responsibility for his actions, he decided that it might actually be God's fault.

Thus the teaching that man does not have a free will and that God moves man as God wills.

The church respected Augustine for his knowledge and for helping to defeat Pelagius because Pelagius denied the Holy Spirit's work in man.

However, let it be noted that this same Catholic Church believes in the free will of man.

Because that is what the bible teaches..
NOT what Augustine taught in the 5th century.

To say nothing of what the church believed BEFORE Augustine.

The church believed in the free will of man.

The following is from Gemini --- which seems to be more familiar with Christian teachings than some Christians:


Early Church Fathers (ante-Nicene period) largely taught that human beings possess libertarian free will, enabling them to accept or reject God's grace, and that salvation involves synergy (cooperation) between human choice and divine assistance. They emphasized moral accountability, arguing that God does not force or compel humans to choose good or evil, rejecting the determinism found in Gnostic thought.

• Key Beliefs: Most fathers, such as Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, argued that because man is created in God's likeness, he is endowed with free will and is consequently responsible for his own actions and eternal fate.
• Synergism: The early tradition generally held that while divine grace is essential for salvation, it does not bypass the human will, which must choose to respond to that grace.
• Defense Against Determinism: The church was heavily involved in defending free will against Gnostic fatalism.
• Role of Baptism & Theosis: After baptism, the process of salvation is often described as theosis (union with God), which requires a continued, voluntary cooperation with divine grace.
• Evolution of Thought: While early fathers emphasized free will, the concept of grace and its relationship to the will was later more explicitly debated, particularly following the works of Augustine in the late 4th century.

Prominent figures like Irenaeus (c. 180 AD) maintained that "man is possessed of free will from the beginning" and that obedience is a free choice. This perspective is still foundational in Eastern Orthodox theology, which often emphasizes the synergism between the human, self-determining will (autexousios) and God's grace.



I could post many ECFs, but some say they are not inspired.
But I suppose Augustine was inspired?

Well, since Martin Luther, and the Reformation. October, 1715…. But the theology and doctrines were around loooooong before that. You know, the main impetus of the Reformation was to return Christianity to its Biblical roots…

Sir,
The biblical roots of Christianity did NOT begin with Augustine.

Augustine CHANGED the biblical roots of Christianity.

You might also be familiar with why he taught that babies must be baptized?

Do YOU believe babies must be baptized?

Well, then what do you think the writer of Hebrews meant when he wrote that “in these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son”…? But to your assertion here, based on this statement in Hebrews 1:2, these last days are at least from His ascension, and especially Pentecost 40 days later. Now me, personally ~ and I’m not sure all Reformed folks would agree, but that’s not a big honkin’ deal <smile> ~ I say the last days began at His birth to of Mary, because He said and did great things, of course, and I would asset that the Father was speaking by His Son even while He was here in Person, even in that day.

I explained and will not repeat.

They are, yes. I get what you mean though… <smile>


2000, I’m guessing you mean… oh well no, maybe you did actually mean 200; okay, no matter. Yes, as I said, nothing new under the sun…

I meant two hundred.

Any NEW teaching that has come about just 200 years ago and changes an existing teaching will be heretical.

The JWs began about 200 years ago.
They believe themselves to be Christian.
Are they?
No.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying the reformed are not Christian...they are.

Just want to show that new DOCTRINE will most probably be wrong.
Teaching that man does not have free will is a new doctrine.
It is wrong.

There’s a lot of that out there, but fortunately we have the Holy Spirit to keep us from such things… and Jesus, by the Spirit, just as He said He would be, “to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). And hey, notice he didn’t say, “to the end of the coming age,” or “to the end of the age yet to come.” <smile>

It will be up to the church and its members to keep heresy out of the Body of Christ...the Church.

Indeed. But remember why those who fall away do so… Hebrews 3:12 ~ “Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God” ~ and 1 John 2:18-19 ~ “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us” ~ are helpful here.

Grace and peace to you, Christian!

Yes sir. There are UNBELIEVING hearts...and these are they that will fall away.

1 Timothy 4:1 might be more to the point.
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


Matthew 24:10-13
10 And at that time many will [a]fall away, and they will [b]betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will rise up and [c]mislead many people.
12 And because lawlessness is increased, [d]most people’s love will become cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved.

 

[PinSeeker]

Augustine. A manachaen heretic that decided to become Catholic.

LOL! Well, we would agree about Catholicism, more or less. But they do get some things right... <smile>

Bothered by his sinning by fornication that he could not control.

I mean, we're all sinners. Not an excuse, but it is what it is. None of us are anywhere close to perfect (but we will be...). As Paul said even of himself, we "do the things we know we ought not to do, and we don't do the things we know we should do." And as John says, "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." But, he says, "if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So as Christians, hopefully our lives are lives of continual confession and repentance and keeping in step with the Spirit. Now, this is no "license to sin," as many allege; Paul addresses this very thing in his letter to the Romans (6:15-18), writing, "Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

Instead of accepting responsibility for his actions, he decided that it might actually be God's fault.

LOL! See above. Augustine knew very well... and hopefully all Christians know even today... that God is not the author of sin. Augustine... and later John Calvin and all the reformers... knew that although there is now no condemnation (Romans 8:1) for Christians ~ all of whom, if they truly are born again of the Spirit, are in Christ Jesus ~ there are certainly consequences for sin, and we are to live lives becoming the followers of Christ that we are. This is what we are created for by God, born again of the Spirit of God and thus of God Himself, for good works (Ephesians 2:4-10). Thusly, our will is to do God's will (rather than what was the case prior to that).

Thus the teaching that man does not have a free will and that God moves man as God wills.

Neither Augustine nor Calvin taught this in any way, shape, or form. I think the clearest place in the Bible that explains the true dynamic here (besides what Paul says in Romans 6, cited above) is what he says to the Philippians (2:13), where he exhorts us all to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." So we do the willing and working, but it is because of God's work in us, the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

The church respected Augustine for his knowledge and for helping to defeat Pelagius because Pelagius denied the Holy Spirit's work in man.

Well, Pelagius soft-pedalled it (the work of the Holy Spirit in man) greatly, albeit maybe unintentionally, thereby in effect making man out to be responsible ~ and praiseworthy, actually ~ for his salvation, as Jacobus Arminius later did in his objections to John Calvin's writings and teachings.

However, let it be noted that this same Catholic Church believes in the free will of man.

I mean, I'm not Catholic, but anybody is silly not to believe in man's free will. The disagreement really doesn't have anything to do with free will, but the heart, the spirit of the person, which always drives the will.

NOT what Augustine taught in the 5th century.

Right; what you have said is NOT what Augustine taught. <smile> It is the perception of many, but not what he actually taught.

salvation involves synergy (cooperation) between human choice and divine assistance...

In the experiential sense, after we are born again of the Spirit, this is true. Although I wouldn’t call it “synergy,” or “cooperation ,” really, because, well, God + us = salvation ~ as if the credit, and again the praise and glory ~ is not a valid equation. God gives us spiritual life and even His Holy Spirit, Who dwelling in us then empowers us to bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and sustains us in our working and serving and persevering to the day of Christ. The credit for both our present and future salvation is not divided in any proportion between God and man. Again, in Paul's words to the Ephesians (2:4-10):

• "God made us alive together with Christ⁠ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing but the gift of God, and so we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

And Paul's exhortation to the Philippians (and us; 2:12-13):

• We are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us, so that we then will and work for His good pleasure."

God's grace comes to us free, else it is not grace. And then, it does indeed place a great responsibility ~ to Him, of course ~ on us. But there is no "synergy" in being born again of the Spirit. By God's grace we are saved. Salvation is of the Lord. To Him be the glory, and to Him alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

. They emphasized moral accountability

As did Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards even up to many great Christians pastors/teachers/commentators today. Yeah, the Civil and Ceremonial parts of the Law are no longer binding upon Christians, but the Moral certainly is. As Jesus said, the whole Law depends on the greatest commandments, first to love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and second to love your neighbor as yourself. Yes, each of us will be judged according to what we have done (Romans 2:4), which we see graphically in Jesus's depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

God does not force or compel humans to choose good or evil...

Of course not. God is not the author of sin. And again, it's not about making choices... not about the will. It's about the state of the heart, which either is what it is from birth (even from conception), or made to be what it is in being born again of the Spirit. It is the heart, the spirit, which is either of the devil or of God, that always drives the will. Thus Jesus says to a group of Jews in John 8 and John 10:

• "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God" (John 8:43-47))
• "you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

• Key Beliefs: Most fathers, such as Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, argued that because man is created in God's likeness, he is endowed with free will and is consequently responsible for his own actions and eternal fate.
• Synergism: The early tradition generally held that while divine grace is essential for salvation, it does not bypass the human will, which must choose to respond to that grace.
• Defense Against Determinism: The church was heavily involved in defending free will against Gnostic fatalism.
• Role of Baptism & Theosis: After baptism, the process of salvation is often described as theosis (union with God), which requires a continued, voluntary cooperation with divine grace.
• Evolution of Thought: While early fathers emphasized free will, the concept of grace and its relationship to the will was later more explicitly debated, particularly following the works of Augustine in the late 4th century.

Prominent figures like Irenaeus (c. 180 AD) maintained that "man is possessed of free will from the beginning" and that obedience is a free choice.

See, all this is good, God'sGrace, and any Bible-believing Christian ~ even reformed ones... <smile> ~ will heartily agree with all these things. However... <smile> ...all these points can be misunderstood in the certain sense of soft-pedaling God's sovereignty over all things, all of His creation, including us, regarding His salvation and for people individually in particular, and their heart... their spirit... which God, of His free will and accord, either leaves in its natural state or gives new birth to. As Ezekiel says:

• "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (36:26-28).

There is nothing there regarding our free will except that after receiving this new heart/spirit from God, our free will is then to do His will. And this is His prerogative, His purpose of election, His choosing of some, and not all, foreknowing them as such, which is synonymous with foreloving them, "though not yet born so having done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls" (Romans 9:11). So in that sense ~ and this does nothing to insinuate man does not make a choice; he absolutely does, and a free one at that ~ being one of God's elect "does not depend not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), and as God Himself says through Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15). So, Paul says, God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18). And as Paul says in Ephesians 1, "In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose... and thus ...we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will." This is Scripture, verbatim ~ emphasis mine ~ God'sGrace. God's Word is immutable; it cannot be refuted; it endures forever.

I could post many ECFs, but some say they are not inspired.

Right. Only God's Word is inspired... breathed by God (2 Timothy 3:16).

But I suppose Augustine was inspired?

No.

The biblical roots of Christianity did NOT begin with Augustine.

Right. I neither said nor insinuated any such thing. Sir. <smile>

Augustine CHANGED the biblical roots of Christianity.

Nope. Nobody can actually do that...

You might also be familiar with why he taught that babies must be baptized?

Ah, well... should, in the sense that we should not... deprive... or withhold... the sign and seal of God's promise from them. And that's what Peter taught that in Acts 2, specifically verse 38, that we and all our households and all who are far off should be baptized, that the promise is for us and our children. He put no qualifying age or level of cognition or ability on that...

Do YOU believe babies must be baptized?

Again, should, but only in the sense that we should not... deprive... or withhold... the sign and seal of God's promise from them. But many believe in believers' baptism only, and that's okay, really, but there is no Biblical mandate ~ or even justification ~ for withholding this sign and seal of God's covenant from them. You may not believe this, but I think you will see it in Colossians 2:11-12... water baptism has replaced in the New Testament church the ceremonial rite of circumcision, which was given to Abraham as the sign and seal of God's covenant in Genesis 17, and circumcision was to be performed on males on the eighth day of the life of every newborn male as commanded by God. Now baptism, which is for all our children, male and female... while it doesn't have to be precisely on the eighth day... should follow the same pattern. Much like we are not commanded to tithe, as the Old Testament Israelites were (nowhere in the New Testament does anything explicit regarding a tithe appear), but we should give freewill offerings, thereby following the same pattern of old.

I explained and will not repeat.

Good idea. <smile>

Any NEW teaching that has come about just 200 years ago and changes an existing teaching will be heretical.

Hmmm... well, I agree and disagree, in different senses... What if that existing teaching (even two weeks ago) was itself heretical (or just wrong)? <smile> But yes, "all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of grass, and the grass withers, and the flower falls, but (only) the Word of the Lord remains forever."

The JWs began about 200 years ago. They believe themselves to be Christian. Are they? No.

Agree. They deny Christ, so yes, of course not.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying the reformed are not Christian...they are.

Okay. <smile>

Just want to show that new DOCTRINE will most probably be wrong.

If it is truly new, and out of accord with God's Word, yes.

Teaching that man does not have free will is a new doctrine. It is wrong.

Okay, right, but reformed folk do not teach such. See above.

It will be up to the church and its members to keep heresy out of the Body of Christ...the Church.

Ah, well, yes in a sense, but no in another sense; the Holy Spirit protects us from such.

There are UNBELIEVING hearts...and these are they that will fall away.

Right, evil, unbelieving hearts, and are they so? Why do they not believe? See what Jesus says in John 8 and 10, cited above...

1 Timothy 4:1

Matthew 24:10-13

Indeed. But Who (capital 'W') really gets the credit ~ and glory, of course ~ for...

• our "be(ing) born again... to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5?
• "keeping us from stumbling," as Jude says in Jude 24?

To God be the glory. And may we, in the words of Paul in Colossians 3,

• "let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..." ~ don't be anxious (Matthew 6) "...to which indeed we were called in one body..."
• "...and be thankful..."
• "...and let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing each another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in our hearts to God..."
• and may we, "...whatever we do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."

Grace and peace to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, God'sGrace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Continued from above...


See, all this is good, God'sGrace, and any Bible-believing Christian ~ even reformed ones... <smile> ~ will heartily agree with all these things. However... <smile> ...all these points can be misunderstood in the certain sense of soft-pedaling God's sovereignty over all things, all of His creation, including us, regarding His salvation and for people individually in particular, and their heart... their spirit... which God, of His free will and accord, either leaves in its natural state or gives new birth to. As Ezekiel says:

• "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (36:26-28).

There is nothing there regarding our free will except that after receiving this new heart/spirit from God, our free will is then to do His will. And this is His prerogative, His purpose of election, His choosing of some, and not all, foreknowing them as such, which is synonymous with foreloving them, "though not yet born so having done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls" (Romans 9:11). So in that sense ~ and this does nothing to insinuate man does not make a choice; he absolutely does, and a free one at that ~ being one of God's elect "does not depend not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), and as God Himself says through Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15). So, Paul says, God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18). And as Paul says in Ephesians 1, "In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose... and thus ...we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will." This is Scripture, verbatim ~ emphasis mine ~ God'sGrace. God's Word is immutable; it cannot be refuted; it endures forever.


Right. Only God's Word is inspired... breathed by God (2 Timothy 3:16).


No.


Right. I neither said nor insinuated any such thing. Sir. <smile>


Nope. Nobody can actually do that...


Ah, well... should, in the sense that we should not... deprive... or withhold... the sign and seal of God's promise from them. And that's what Peter taught that in Acts 2, specifically verse 38, that we and all our households and all who are far off should be baptized, that the promise is for us and our children. He put no qualifying age or level of cognition or ability on that...


Again, should, but only in the sense that we should not... deprive... or withhold... the sign and seal of God's promise from them. But many believe in believers' baptism only, and that's okay, really, but there is no Biblical mandate ~ or even justification ~ for withholding this sign and seal of God's covenant from them. You may not believe this, but I think you will see it in Colossians 2:11-12... water baptism has replaced in the New Testament church the ceremonial rite of circumcision, which was given to Abraham as the sign and seal of God's covenant in Genesis 17, and circumcision was to be performed on males on the eighth day of the life of every newborn male as commanded by God. Now baptism, which is for all our children, male and female... while it doesn't have to be precisely on the eighth day... should follow the same pattern. Much like we are not commanded to tithe, as the Old Testament Israelites were (nowhere in the New Testament does anything explicit regarding a tithe appear), but we should give freewill offerings, thereby following the same pattern of old.


Good idea. <smile>


Hmmm... well, I agree and disagree, in different senses... What if that existing teaching (even two weeks ago) was itself heretical (or just wrong)? <smile> But yes, "all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of grass, and the grass withers, and the flower falls, but (only) the Word of the Lord remains forever."


Agree. They deny Christ, so yes, of course not.


Okay. <smile>


If it is truly new, and out of accord with God's Word, yes.


Okay, right, but reformed folk do not teach such. See above.


Ah, well, yes in a sense, but no in another sense; the Holy Spirit protects us from such.


Right, evil, unbelieving hearts, and are they so? Why do they not believe? See what Jesus says in John 8 and 10, cited above...


Indeed. But Who (capital 'W') really gets the credit ~ and glory, of course ~ for...

• our "be(ing) born again... to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5?
• "keeping us from stumbling," as Jude says in Jude 24?

To God be the glory. And may we, in the words of Paul in Colossians 3,

• "let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..." ~ don't be anxious (Matthew 6) "...to which indeed we were called in one body..."
• "...and be thankful..."
• "...and let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing each another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in our hearts to God..."
• and may we, "...whatever we do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."

Grace and peace to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, God'sGrace.

Wow Pinseeker.
You're following in the footsteps of Auntie Jane!
Will have to wait till after lunch.

 

[PinSeeker]

Wow Pinseeker.
You're following in the footsteps of Auntie Jane!
Will have to wait till after lunch.

Ugh. No… <smile> I mean, Auntie Jane and I might find some things to agree on, but-tuhhhh… no. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Guess I'm gettin' ghosted... <chuckles>

@GodsGrace

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PS95]

Ugh. No… <smile> I mean, Auntie Jane and I might find some things to agree on, but-tuhhhh… no. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

I think that Grace was only referring to the lengthy post when she made that comparison to JW Jane.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think that Grace was only referring to the lengthy post when she made that comparison to JW Jane.

Hmm, maybe so, but that wasn't the idea I got from that... <smile> If so, then maybe she should have been clearer about that, but whatever.

Grace and peace to you, PS95.