Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Grailhunter]

A description that described the church at the time and
which description became the name of the early church.

In the 4th century.

 

[Grailhunter]

If I'm the starter of a corporation
and my son is the President of said corporation
and I die
and pass title of CEO to my son
is that succession?

This is what happened with the Apostles.
Did the Apostles just die or did they pass on what they taught?

Correct my son would be the successor. But if I taught one of my employee how to drive a forklift and I die, that is not succession.
At one time the Apostles were voting in new members of the 12 as one of the other would die. That process stopped and so did there "denomination" the Jewish-Christian died out around the 1st century. No succession and at the time no office of the Pope. Now the concept of an affectionate title like Papa is something that is in history around the late 2nd century.

 

[Wrangler]

You see Beepster, I've been conversing with @Wrangler for a long time and my comment was meant specifically for him.
Wrangler likes philosophy and he likes analogies.

These don't work well when discussing Theology...neither does talk about philosophy.

Again, you just assert stuff. @Beebster observed the Bible has many analogies. You are very hostile to the wisdom of the Bible and the theology it contains. VERY hostile (removed).

But the best we here on these forums can do is stick to the bible.

Sticking to the Bible is what you DO NOT DO. The Bible identifies only the father as God - in every Epistle! Jesus affirmed this, adding he is the only true God. For some reason, you disregard this Bible stick.

 

[Lambano]

What is NOT your right is to debate the divinity of Jesus.

You're fighting the previous war (but you don't realize it). The divinity of Jesus isn't what I'm debating. Even the NWT says "The word was a god". What's under discussion is whether the Trinitarian theory correctly describes the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That relationship includes the concepts of co-equality, co-eternality, modalism, and subordinationism. With side discussions about whether the divine name refers to the Father or to the Triune Godhead; the Greek philosophical concepts used to describe Trinity, such as Logos, morphe, ousia, and hypostases, and Aristotle's rules of logic themselves.

And I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else define what a Christian is or what I can and cannot debate. If the moderators decide to ban me, they would be doing me a favor.

 

[HealthyShape]

The Bible identifies only the father as God

Why are you still repeating this untrue statement?

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"
Col 2:9

"...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Titus 2:13

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 1:8

Or, in the Old Testament:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Is 9:6

And all the places with the Angel of YHWH who is God or with the Son of Man sitting on the throne and coming on clouds (which identifies YHWH).

And let us not forget the Holy Spirit, who is also God.

If you do not believe that Christ is God, you have no place in Christians Only forum.

 

[Wrangler]

Why are you still repeating this untrue statement?

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

In NO WAY does your reference claim anyone other than the Father is God - unless you rely on such horrible translations. Compare to most other translations.

No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in a most intimate relationship witha the Father, he has explained him.

 

[Grailhunter]

Agreed on all.

All Constantine did, after his conversion, was to stop persecution of Christians.

Let's be clear:
The Christian religion existed before Contantine.

You always make it sound as if HE invented it or defined it.

Emperor Constantine was not the start of Christianity, but he most definitely was the start of the Ecumenical Councils which in turn organized the Catholic Church. Sylvester I was the first Pope of the Catholic Church. Why does history show Sylvester I as the first Pope. First religious leader since James to have overall authority and the first religious leader to have the physical power to enforce their decrees. But......effectively Emperor Constantine was the most senior Christian.....with the power to direct and call Ecumenical Councils and finance the Church and influence beliefs and enforce decrees.

During Constantine's reign, approximately half of those who identified themselves as Christian did not subscribe to the Catholic version of the faith. And about half of them were Gnostics and a group called Cathars. Constantine feared that disunity would displease God and lead to trouble for the Empire, so he direct the Church to condemn these groups and took judicial and military measures to eliminate some sects. To resolve other disputes, Constantine began the practice of calling Ecumenical Councils to determine binding interpretations of Church doctrine and in turn the Empire would enforce....

Decisions made at the Council of Nicaea (325) about the divinity of Christ and the Trinity and well as other beliefs regarding Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit led to schisms; the new religion, Arianism flourished outside the Roman Empire.

Arianism summed up a lot of the disagreements with Ecumenical Councils. Arius....Arianism theology holds that Jesus is the true Son of God who was begotten by God the Father so therefore the Son of God did not always exist. Wherefore, Jesus was not coeternal with God the Father, but was co-aware in a fashion as time existing as a continuum from the perspectives of the deity. Arianism holds that the Son is a God distinct from the Father and subordinate to God the Father (Sounds familiar? LOL Not exactly.) Except Arius did not have distinct expressed beliefs regarding the Holy Spirit.

Regardless we are not sure of Emperor Constantine true views on the Trinity doctrine but.....He was baptized on his death bed in 337 by an Arian Bishop named Eusebius of Nicomedia.

You cannot kill beliefs, as the Catholic Church would soon learn. Controversies over Arianism and semi-Arianisms arose in the late 3rd century and persisted throughout most of the 4th century. It involved many church members—from simple believers, priests, and monks to bishops, emperors, and members of Rome's imperial family. Two Roman emperors, Constantius II and Valens, became Arians or semi Arians, like Origen many before and after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Pope Liberius signed the Arian Creed of Sirmium of 357—For this reason the Catholic Church felt it had to force the false doctrine of the 3 in 1 Trinity on Christianity upon pain of death or Hell in order to stop the disagreements and Arianism. But you cannot kill an idea and various forms of Arianism exists today.

The Catholic Church produced doctrines that are strait up non-biblical, as for as Arianism its only direct conflict with the scriptures and 1st century Christianity is that Arius considered Yeshua a deity but not a God and this is were modern semi-Arius beliefs differ.

In 380, the Catholic Church became the official religion of the Roman Empire. In 385, this new legal authority of the Church resulted in the first use of capital punishment being pronounced as a sentence upon a Christian 'heretic', namely Priscillian.

An interesting part of Catholic history is the on set of the ministry, visitations, and miracles of Mary (Miriam). Popular option was a love for Mary and her stories circulated around the whole of Christianity. At first the Catholic Church did not recognize----her activities, but eventually had to----to prevent a separate religious group from forming that could include as much 3/4 of the Church. Hard to argue with reality, to date there are about 20,000 documented sighting, visitations, and miracles associated with Mary, including nearly a million eyewitnesses.

This is the part of history that Protestants would very much like to re-write. Protestant do not recognize Mary other than a figure in the Bible and consider worship of her idolatry. The Catholics deny worshipping her but it another attempt to deny reality. Marian altars are common in Catholic homes and extremely prevalent in South America where Christianity was more or less formed by Mary....The Lady of Guadalupe.

Part of being a Theologian is not denying the facts or history or trying re-write history. So I am not saying this because I do not like Miriam because I talk to and pray to Miriam.

 

[HealthyShape]

In NO WAY does your reference claim anyone other than the Father is God - unless you rely on such horrible translations. Compare to most other translations.

No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in a most intimate relationship witha the Father, he has explained him.

Learn more about this topic so that you do not look ignorant. The only begotten God is the standard reading and is in the oldest Greek manuscripts. It is not a matter of translation, but of Greek text.

Your claim that only Father is called God in the Bible is a lie. Jesus is called God in like dozen of places in the Bible and more in the writings of the first church.

You can remove all those verses from your Bible like the Jehovah Witnesses did, but not from mine.

 

[Justified]

Safe to say we disagree on this verse, but it is still interesting.
Here are few commentaries on them.

Hebrews 1:8 Commentaries: But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

biblehub.com

I’m not even discussing that verse. As I already explained, I only quoted it for “But of the Son he says,” which leads to the “And” which begins verse 10. It is so we know that the Father is continuing to speak of the Son, strongly implying that he is also Yahweh, being the agent of creation, by saying that Ps. 102:25-27 is speaking of the Son.

 

[Lambano]

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9


Who is “Him” in this scripture.


Who are the members of the Godhead?

The Greek word "theotes" used in Colossians 2:9 means "Deity", and is translated such in the NET, NIV, NASB, and others. "The Godhead" is the KJV translators writing back their theology into the Bible.

The divinity of Christ is not what is under contention here.

 

[Justified]

View attachment 79040
@Justified

Hebrews 1 is showing you the distinction between the Son of Man, who has companions and the all-powerful Sovereign God.

Hebrews 1 is almost entirely about the superiority of the Son to the angels. In making the case that that is so, the writer of Hebrews has the Father strongly implying that the Son is also Yahweh, being the agent of creation, by saying that Ps. 102:25-27 is speaking of the Son.

God was not masquerading as a Son who loves righteousness and hates lawlessness.

Jesus was God, the Son, in human flesh; two natures, one person. That is the consistent witness of the NT.

Only a mortal man, subject to death’s dominion, can be exalted beyond it.

What is this even supposed to mean?

 

[NayborBear]

Agreed on all.

All Constantine did, after his conversion, was to stop persecution of Christians.

Let's be clear:
The Christian religion existed before Contantine.

You always make it sound as if HE invented it or defined it.

I agree with all you stated, EXCEPT your last statement.
Constintine didn't invent Christianity. Yet, in a very real way, he did!
BY forcing "The Church that then was," to allow pagans in the injecting of their "practices and traditions" into "The Church!"
Even to this day!
Don't believe me?
Go color your "easter eggs!"
And?
Pass out that candy for "halloween!"
AND?
How many days til CHRISTmas? Better save up yer money. Presents for the kiddies!

 

[HealthyShape]

I agree with all you stated, EXCEPT your last statement.
Constintine didn't invent Christianity. Yet, in a very real way, he did!
BY forcing "The Church that then was," to allow pagans in the injecting of their "practices and traditions" into "The Church!"
Even to this day!
Don't believe me?
Go color your "easter eggs!"
And?
Pass out that candy for "halloween!"
AND?
How many days til CHRISTmas? Better save up yer money. Presents for the kiddies!

Neither easter eggs nor halloween is a church thing.

And there is nothing wrong with traditional Christian Christmas. Do not confuse it with modern secular American holidays.

 

[NayborBear]

Your post makes no sense.

But I will repeat:
THERE IS ONLY ONE YAWEH.

Father is YAWEH.
Son is YAWEH.
Holy Ghost is YAWEH.

You can take it or leave it.
But if you leave it,,,,
you cannot define yourself as Christian.

And I DO believe I see the word CHRISTIAN under your avatar.

Addressing the first part of your post?
Wasn't it Peter that made this statement concerning Paul and his teaching/s?
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

As for the 2nd part?
Your flesh eyes haven't failed you yet!
For, I am INDEED a Christian! Not to be confused with nor conjoined with churchianitists!

 

[Justified]

Verse 10 (through 12) is part of a different quote, Psalm 102, which states that YHWH and His plan are unchanging.

It states more than that:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.

It is clearly talks about YHWH being the creator. In Heb. 1:10-12, the Father says this is about the Son, which supports what was mentioned in verse 2. That should be very convincing.

 

[NayborBear]

Who are the members of the Godhead?

Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Ex. 15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times Compare Psalm 68. 4, 18.

EL is essentially the Almighty, thought the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occ. Gen. 14:18:22) and sees all (Gen. 16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Ps. 57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.

Eloah is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deut. 32:15, 17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols.

Elyon first occurs in Gen. 14:18 with El, and is rendered "the most high (God)". It is El and Elohim, not as the powerful Creator, but as "the possessor of heaven and earth." Hence the name is associated with Christ as the Son of "the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is Elyon, as possessor of the earth, Who divides the nations "their inheritance". In Ps. 83:18, He is "over all the earth".
Elyon is the Dispenser of God's blessings in the earth; the blessings proceeding from a Priest Who is a King upon His throne (cp. Gen. 14:18-22 with Zech. 6:13; 14:9).

Shaddai is in every instance translated "Almighty." It is God (El), not as the source of strength, but of grace; not as Creator, but as the Giver. Shaddai is the All-bountiful. This title does not refer to His creative power, but to His power to supply all the needs of His people. Its first occurrence is in Gen. 17:1, and is used to show Abraham that He Who called him out to walk alone before Him could supply all his need. Even so it is the title used in 2Cor. 6:18, where we are called to "come out" in separation from the world. It is always used in connection with El (see above).

These are the "Governments" of the SPIRIT of GOD which Christ Jesus of Nazareth bares on His shoulder!

 

[GodsGrace]

You're fighting the previous war (but you don't realize it). The divinity of Jesus isn't what I'm debating. Even the NWT says "The word was a god". What's under discussion is whether the Trinitarian theory correctly describes the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That relationship includes the concepts of co-equality, co-eternality, modalism, and subordinationism. With side discussions about whether the divine name refers to the Father or to the Triune Godhead; the Greek philosophical concepts used to describe Trinity, such as Logos, morphe, ousia, and hypostases, and Aristotle's rules of logic themselves.

And I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else define what a Christian is or what I can and cannot debate. If the moderators decide to ban me, they would be doing me a favor.

Oh my gosh.
The moderators BAN LAMBANO!
Surely you jest !

This is a serious conversation about a topic that needs to be addressed.

It is NOT about a person's salvation which absolutely is not to be discussed and is between the person and God.

The Trinitarian theory....
you see L,,,I'm willing to discuss it...but EVEN THIS is NOT what this thread is about.

We could have the Trinity wrong (which we don't) but it's a way of explaining that Jesus is God without creating TWO GODS.

What IS under discussion is the statement you made above:
You said:

"And I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else define what a Christian is "

So...
1. Should Christianity be defined or not?
2. Who should decide the definition of Christian?

Do we each define Christian as we see fit?
That means there are many definitions - so the word Christian loses all meaning.

Has the definition already been established?
By Who?
When?

Stuff we Christians should be thinking about as Christianity becomes ever more watered down.

 

[NayborBear]

Neither easter eggs nor halloween is a church thing.

It isn't??!!
To those (I guess) "churches" where these practices are still held should be considered "Secular, or Apostate" churches?

 

[HealthyShape]

It isn't??!!
To those (I guess) "churches" where these practices are still held should be considered "Secular, or Apostate" churches?

Name those churches.

 

[HealthyShape]

It isn't??!!
To those (I guess) "churches" where these practices are still held should be considered "Secular, or Apostate" churches?

And no, if some church is coloring eggs for Easter day, it does not mean such church is apostate.

People who deny that Jesus is God or that the Holy Spirit is a person and similar, are apostates.