Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

[Randy Kluth]

What? The carnal nature was there all the time. It was who they really were. They were not real. They were religious phonies going to Jerusalem once a year to parade their religious hypocrisy.

Your characterization--not mine. There are a lot of people alive today who in the future will depart from public order and find themselves vulnerable to satanic suggestion.

I believe that peace will exist between nations and include many people who are not born again. Over the course of time, there will come to be many who reject being born again completely.

When Satan is released that is when you can call them rebels--not before. If they had not yet chosen to be Born Again during the Millennial Age, then they only become rebellious in the sense you are describing it when they choose to follow Satan after the Millennial Age.

Just for example, let's suppose that following Armageddon and Christ's Coming, the world's population is restored, and over the course of a thousand years there comes to be 10 billion people. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that 5 billion of them have positively rejected becoming born again.

They are not yet encouraged to rebel against God's People, and are drawn to peace within their societies and among nations. This is the rational thing for all to do, believer and unbeliever.

But when Satan is released those 5 billion people who rejected being Born Again are vulnerable and are now coerced into open rebellion against those who are Born Again. It does not mean that they had been fully rebellious and sowing chaos before Satan was released. They had only chosen not to be Born Again, and yet maintained a semblance of Christian order on earth until being coerced into fully manifesting their carnal nature. People can live for themselves without engaging in full-scale social rebellion!

After, your millennial bliss of supposed global submission and obedience to Christ, they turn enmass at the first sight of Satan and overrun your millennium. A thousand years of Christ appealed to them so much, billions collectively rise up against Him and rebel. Talk about a religious sham!

How long did it take for Adam and Eve to turn against God's word--probably within the course of a single conversation? How long will it take non-Born Again people to respond to Satan's incitement? Not long.

I think you're limiting the capacity of independent, self-sufficient people to turn away from civilized behavior. It happened, certainly, in "Christian" Germany when Hitler came to power. And we're seeing it rear its ugly head in the US right now by those who are promoting chaos in the streets.

It doesn't really take long, brother! It only takes a trigger, and Satan will provide that incitement I believe when he is released from his prison at the end of the Millennium.

 

[WPM]

Your characterization--not mine. There are a lot of people alive today who in the future will depart from public order and find themselves vulnerable to satanic suggestion.

I believe that peace will exist between nations and include many people who are not born again. Over the course of time, there will come to be many who reject being born again completely.

When Satan is released that is when you can call them rebels--not before. If they had not yet chosen to be Born Again during the Millennial Age, then they only become rebellious in the sense you are describing it when they choose to follow Satan after the Millennial Age.

Just for example, let's suppose that following Armageddon and Christ's Coming, the world's population is restored, and over the course of a thousand years there comes to be 10 billion people. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that 5 billion of them have positively rejected becoming born again.

They are not yet encouraged to rebel against God's People, and are drawn to peace within their societies and among nations. This is the rational thing for all to do, believer and unbeliever.

But when Satan is released those 5 billion people who rejected being Born Again are vulnerable and are now coerced into open rebellion against those who are Born Again. It does not mean that they had been fully rebellious and sowing chaos before Satan was released. They had only chosen not to be Born Again, and yet maintained a semblance of Christian order on earth until being coerced into fully manifesting their carnal nature. People can live for themselves without engaging in full-scale social rebellion!

How long did it take for Adam and Eve to turn against God's word--probably within the course of a single conversation? How long will it take non-Born Again people to respond to Satan's incitement? Not long.

I think you're limiting the capacity of independent, self-sufficient people to turn away from civilized behavior. It happened, certainly, in "Christian" Germany when Hitler came to power. And we're seeing it rear its ugly head in the US right now by those who are promoting chaos in the streets.

It doesn't really take long, brother! It only takes a trigger, and Satan will provide that incitement I believe when he is released from his prison at the end of the Millennium.

The unregenerate are rebels - period. They refuse to bow the knee. They are in no way righteous or good, but children of the devil. Trying to portray them otherwise, to fit your doctrine, is futile.

 

[WPM]

Your characterization--not mine. There are a lot of people alive today who in the future will depart from public order and find themselves vulnerable to satanic suggestion.

I believe that peace will exist between nations and include many people who are not born again. Over the course of time, there will come to be many who reject being born again completely.

When Satan is released that is when you can call them rebels--not before. If they had not yet chosen to be Born Again during the Millennial Age, then they only become rebellious in the sense you are describing it when they choose to follow Satan after the Millennial Age.

Just for example, let's suppose that following Armageddon and Christ's Coming, the world's population is restored, and over the course of a thousand years there comes to be 10 billion people. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that 5 billion of them have positively rejected becoming born again.

They are not yet encouraged to rebel against God's People, and are drawn to peace within their societies and among nations. This is the rational thing for all to do, believer and unbeliever.

But when Satan is released those 5 billion people who rejected being Born Again are vulnerable and are now coerced into open rebellion against those who are Born Again. It does not mean that they had been fully rebellious and sowing chaos before Satan was released. They had only chosen not to be Born Again, and yet maintained a semblance of Christian order on earth until being coerced into fully manifesting their carnal nature. People can live for themselves without engaging in full-scale social rebellion!

How long did it take for Adam and Eve to turn against God's word--probably within the course of a single conversation? How long will it take non-Born Again people to respond to Satan's incitement? Not long.

I think you're limiting the capacity of independent, self-sufficient people to turn away from civilized behavior. It happened, certainly, in "Christian" Germany when Hitler came to power. And we're seeing it rear its ugly head in the US right now by those who are promoting chaos in the streets.

It doesn't really take long, brother! It only takes a trigger, and Satan will provide that incitement I believe when he is released from his prison at the end of the Millennium.

They are rebels throughout the millennium. They are so because that is their nature. Satan doesn't make people sinful, they are born that way. That is why they rebel against the precepts of God from the womb.

You make Satan omnipresent. As soon as the thousand years are up, he deceives all the wicked at one time. They then arise enmass to rebel against Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

How can you say its false if you don't know what it is? Christ has already come with the Kingdom of God; however, the Kingdom of God shall not be complete before the last one to be saved has been born again! Already but not yet, get it?

How do you not get that the second coming is seen in Revelation Chapter 19, your previous claim is that the chapter has been fulfilled, your not back peddling on this one, admit you were wrong

 

[Truth7t7]

I can't help it if you aren't carefully reading my replies. One more time I believe chapter 19 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ depicts not only the beginning as well as the close of this age of time (a thousand years) when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound, and depicts all that has come to pass and continues to come to pass as the Kingdom of God in heaven is being spiritually built as the gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world and multitudes of people throughout all the nations of the world are being born again!

False, you claimed Rev 19 was fulfilled

 

[WPM]

You believe, as an Amil, that a kind of Kingdom reign is taking place right now. I don't. I believe that even though there is a heavenly Kingdom right now--one that presently impacts the earth, I don't believe it impacts the earth in the eschatological sense.

So, I can't agree that there is an eschatological reign on earth right now. And apparently, you agree with me. You just think that because there is a heavenly Kingdom right now that Christians already reign. And I don't believe that's Scriptural. I believe our reign takes place only in the eschaton.

You are wrong. You fail to see Christ ushered in His spiritual reign 2000 years ago. He holds supreme authority now over creation, His new creation and every enemy. He rules now. He exercises power now. He has delegated that spiritual power now.

Ultimate authority belongs to God. God reigns above every earthly power. He determines and dictates what is what and who is who. He dictates what is right and what is wrong. The whole universe is under His dominion. The supreme sign that you are a genuine Christian is that you come under the dominion of God. Your life is no longer your own, and your path is no longer what you want. A classic sign someone is unsaved, or in a backslidden state, is that they refuse to bow to the authority of God and His Word.

Romans 9:20-21: “O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power [Gr. exousia – meaning right, privilege and authority] over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Jesus declared in Matthew 28:18 after His resurrection, “All power [Gr. exousia – meaning right, privilege and authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Jesus is supreme and exercises ultimate authority because He is ‘the LORD, and there is no other’. It is He who created everything, designated the boundaries it functions within, and how long it functions. His authority is so immense that He speaks and it happens. He sets rules and He cannot be questioned. He performs acts and cannot be resisted. God is matchless in His authority. He is unrivalled in His power.

Ephesians 1:19-23 speaks of: “the exceeding greatness (megethos or magnificence) of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his ‘mighty power’ [Gr. kratos ischus or great dominion force and ability], Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Christ reigns in majesty and glory at the right hand of majesty today over His enemies. He has already defeated all His enemies. He is king over the kings and kingdoms of the earth. He is Lord and reigns over all principalities and powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. He exercises sovereign kingly power over all His enemies until He makes them His footstool. There is nothing that is not under his feet. Jesus Christ is indeed Lord!

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt, Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved. Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.

Colossians 1:16-17: “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they bethrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. He is king over all the earth. He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king. Satan is submitted to His authority. He is king over all the earth. He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king.

With the Premillennial reasoning they divest Christ of His rightful power.

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Jesus is described in Revelation 3:7 as: “he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might.

 

[TribulationSigns]

David, I'm Amillennial but I don't believe Rev 19 is future.

Well I do believe Revelation 19 is referring to the future. :)

 

[Zao is life]

What I'm talking about is how fulfillment is happening NOW since the advent of Christ but will not be complete until the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. Many refer to this as "already, but not yet" understanding of Scripture.


That is not the message I intended to portray. My apologies if I caused you confusion.



No! I believe this particular part of the chapter is referring to the first coming of Christ with the Kingdom of God that is not a kingdom of this world, cannot be visibly observed, is within you, and can only be known and entered when we are born again. Because the Kingdom of God now in this age of time is within you, a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, not a physical kingdom upon this earth.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Christ is the rider on the white horse who goes forth conquering, and to conquer (Rev 6:2). In righteousness through the Word of God He judges and makes war against spiritual enemies of righteousness. As time marches on instead of having "a crown given to Him" at the first of Him coming, now on His head are many crowns, (no longer a remnant but now an innumerable multitude) bearing the name known only by Himself, Jesus. The name of Jesus was not known from old and only became known at His birth when He was named JESUS. The Old Covenant people knew the promised one by the name Emmanuel, meaning God with us, but the name of JESUS was unknown by any man before Christ was born.

Revelation 6:2 (KJV) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Luke 1:31-33 (KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 (KJV) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

After His blood was shed on the cross and He resurrected from the dead, John reveals this one called Emmanuel, God with us, JESUS is the Word of God made flesh, begotten of the Father.

John 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The armies that follow Christ on white horses are His faithful saints who through His Word (sword) preached, smites the nations who might now hear the Word proclaimed. The Word of God, gospel of the Kingdom of God is the rod of iron because it is a savor of life for those who believe or the savor of death for those who remain in unbelief. Warning all man everywhere of the fierceness and wrath of God Almighty.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Much of what you say is true but only partially true, leaving too much out.

1. The kingdom of Christ is in the world - but His kingdom within us is His kingdom within humans who are not spirits, but physical flesh people living on a physical planet - and neither we nor nature have been regenerated yet.

Revelation 17:4 you offered no hint of whom you might believe the 10- kings represent, nor how it is that a beast that is now in a bottomless pit has already risen out of that pit to make war against the Lamb

- because the scripture you left out of your interpretation says that the 10 kings who will make war with the Lamb will be reigning with that beast who will ascend out the bottomless pit - and he will be given all their authority by them.

Revelation 19
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Are these all referring to different battles at different times, or are they all referring to "a spiritual battle lasting for the entire gospel age"?

Is the entire gospel age "the battle of that great day of God Almighty"?

In a sense you are correct - the entire gospel age is part of that battle - but the Revelation is talking about a culmination of that battle at the time of the bodily return of Christ.

The Revelation is unveiling details of this final battle - which is the conclusion of the battle you speak of - which we ought not to ignore:

Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

His saints are seen coming with Him for the final battle clothed in white linen - which suggests that He had already appeared in the clouds (Matthew 24:29-31), and they had already risen from the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), and those still alive had been changed and been caught up to meet the Lord in the air

- the reaction of those still on the earth seen in the sixth seal.

Notice how both the sixth trumpet and sixth bowl of wrath are talking about the final battle whereas the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are talking about the same judgment that Revelation 19:20-21 are talking about?

Your interpretation cancels out any culmination - as well as any details unveiled by Christ - of the age-long battle you correctly speak of.

 

[ScottA]

The question I have for you is why you turn simple things into convoluted things? In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 Paul clearly refers to a one time event that will happen at the second coming of Christ, not an ongoing event that happens for each person one at a time. All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time. The order of resurrections that Paul gives is Christ's first and then next in order those who are Christ's at His second coming. It's false teaching to suggest that each believer is bodily resurrected and judged one at a time over the course of time. Scripture never teaches this.

Why would you think what “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared" is "simple?"

As for Paul "clearly referring to a one time event"--yes, of course--"but each one in his own order." Indeed, that is very "simple" and "clear." Why have you believed what evil men have turned into the convoluted doctrine of strong delusion?

As for the second coming of Christ--yes, "but each one in his own order." Does Christ knock "within" everyone at the same time, and come into them all and sup with them all--all at once in one mass future only event--of did He start doing so "within" in spirit (in the glory of the Father) at Pentecost, and has been doing so when each answers His know ever since--"but each one in his own order?"--Did you not comprehend Paul when he said "but" and then "clearly" stated the "simple" truth?

As for all of the dead in Christ" being "resurrected at the same time"--yes--for they died in their sins, whether before of after the cross--but even they all are with Him "today...in paradise"--"but each one in his own order." Which is that "that day and hour no one knows." And yes, you are thinking too "simple"--"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts", says the Lord.

As for teaching or suggesting that each believer is bodily resurrected and judged on at a time over the course of time is "false" and "scripture never teaches" it--I just showed you (again) that it does. But again, it would appear that it is just too simple for you where it is simple, and too high where it is on God's level rather than on your own.

Which is harsh--but you asked (again).

 

[ScottA]

Well I do believe Revelation 19 is referring to the future. :)

That...or any number of ways to look at the timing of biblical events...was indeed appropriate for a time. But it is time now for believing that what we see and experience as "real time" is actually the illusion that God created to reveal all things "here a little there a little", that even science agrees is true--an illusion that is. Because a "Big Bang" would be without mercy.

To begin to see the truth of time, believe literally that although Jesus came when the times were fulfilled, He was "slain before the foundation of the world." Also not the use of past tense regarding certain current events in scripture--like Paul saying "I was crucified with Christ"--literally.

God's thoughts are higher than we are accustom to thinking--but "all true" was promised--and is the order of the day. But--it will indeed take "the renewing of your mind."

 

[Randy Kluth]

The unregenerate are rebels - period. They refuse to bow the knee. They are in no way righteous or good, but children of the devil. Trying to portray them otherwise, to fit your doctrine, is futile.

Are you saying that non-Christian societies have never experienced relative peace? Are you saying that nominally-Christian societies with mixed regenerate and unregenerate believers have not had relative peace? If so, you're ignoring the historical realities. God did give non-Born Again people the ability to do limited good and to embrace a limited peace.

Gen 20.6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."

Cornelius was a good man even before he was Born Again...

Acts 10.1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

God certainly is able to establish peace on earth in limited ways even among people who are not Born Again. Some will eventually get Saved. Others will harden their hearts and utterly reject Salvation. But to say they are unable to do any good or live in peace merely because they are not Born Again is untrue. They need to accept Christ to be Saved, but they can do good without getting Saved. This may be a big difference in how we view things?

 

[Randy Kluth]

They are rebels throughout the millennium. They are so because that is their nature. Satan doesn't make people sinful, they are born that way. That is why they rebel against the precepts of God from the womb.

We are born sinners, but that doesn't mean we can no longer live in God's image, after His likeness. All men were given a conscience. Therefore, all can do good and respond to God's word within, conscious of what it is or not.

For example, even as sinners we may accept Christ as our Savior. We are given the capacity to make right choices. In doing so, we get Saved. Those who do good without getting Saved at least do some good. But God saves only those who accept His Son as their Lord and as their spiritual life.

You make Satan omnipresent. As soon as the thousand years are up, he deceives all the wicked at one time. They then arise enmass to rebel against Christ.

No, I don't think Satan is omnipresent. When he is released I imagine he represents the masses of devils who follow him. They carry out his will and bear his influence throughout the earth.

 

[rwb]

I'm not surprised that someone didn't get that! You are saying Rev 19 includes both the beginning and the end of the present age, which you suggest is a "thousand years?"

Well, I suppose that's typical Amillennialism--the past 2000 years is really a symbolic 1000 years? I don't really know what the Gospel proclamation to the world has to do with this? That's been going on for 2000 years, but I don't know how that relates to the Millennium in Rev 20?

In Rev 19 John is shown a vision of heaven after Christ's cross and resurrection. He hears a "great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God". Because Christ was victorious over sin and death all the faithful saints of old ascended to heaven with Christ, being the firstfruits of the Spirit. None could ascend to heaven before the advent of Christ giving His blood to make atonement for sin, and defeating death through His resurrection. Finally, the promised Messiah long waited for threw opened the gates of heaven bringing salvation to man. Satan has lost his power to hold people of faith in Christ in bondage to fear of death, because sin and death through sin have been defeated for them.

After hearing the joyous celebration of the saints in heaven, saying "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth"... "for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready". John is told to write "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

This is fulfillment of the vision John speaks of in Rev 12 where he is shown that through the birth of Christ, Satan was a defeated foe, because through Christ's victory over Satan, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ". Christ has come and with Him the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God that is within you had come to man, and all who are of faith, being born again through Him are now residents of heaven (spiritual body/living souls) after we physically die. Because the life we receive when we have been born again through the power of His Word and Spirit is ETERNAL LIFE, and cannot die.

After the verses depicting the joyous celebration in heaven the vision changes from heaven to what is taking place upon this earth as the rider on the white horse, who is Christ, with His armies of saints that continue to grow in number as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit. The vision shows how God is smiting, or going to battle with/against the nations of this world, using His mighty sword that is the Word of God (gospel) proclaimed. His mighty army of saints who follow Him are all clothed in righteousness, having been made white by believing on the blood of the Lamb.

Finally John is shown how the great spiritual battle between the forces of Christ and the forces of the beast, symbolizing evil beings, and kings of the earth shall end with the beast and his army being cast into the eternal flames.

Revelation 19:19-21 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Yes, John writes of the beginning of this age of time, symbolized a thousand years, with Christ victorious in heaven with His saints of Old, and then John ends by revealing how this great spiritual battle that has been on-going since the dawn of man shall end with Christ being victorious over all the earth for those who turn to Him for eternal life during this age of time, as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being completed. Once the final/seventh trumpet begins to sound this time shall be no longer, or that there shall no longer be anymore delay, there shall be no more time given this earth because with His coming again this earth shall be burned up that the new heaven and new earth shall come.

 

[rwb]

False, you claimed Rev 19 was fulfilled

No, I did not! I have repeatedly now said that Christ's victory over sin and death was fulfilled at the cross, and that why John writes of a celebration in heaven taking place when Christ ascended there with His Old Covenant faithful saints. Then I said John is shown a vision of all that has come and is coming to pass during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years, as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed to all the nations of the earth. The vision ends with John seeing Christ and His saints winning the battle as all the forces of evil are cast into the eternal flames!

 

[rwb]

How do you not get that the second coming is seen in Revelation Chapter 19, your previous claim is that the chapter has been fulfilled, your not back peddling on this one, admit you were wrong

If I had the slightest idea of what you're talking about perhaps I could set the record straight??? I never said it was all fulfilled, I said only that the cross and resurrection and Him ascending to heaven with the saints of Old is fulfilled. The final victory over the whole earth will not be fulfilled until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and evil and death given to the eternal flames.

 

[rwb]

Well I do believe Revelation 19 is referring to the future. :)

Let me re-state! I believe and have been arguing the part of the vision of Christ in heaven with "much people" is fulfilled. But the battle John envisions being waged is on-going still and won't be finished until the end of this age of time.

 

[rwb]

Much of what you say is true but only partially true, leaving too much out.

Unfortunately too much becomes overwhelming, so trying to be brief often requires more than one reply. Otherwise few are interested in reading a book in these forums.

1. The kingdom of Christ is in the world - but His kingdom within us is His kingdom within humans who are not spirits, but physical flesh people living on a physical planet - and neither we nor nature have been regenerated yet.

We, as physical mortal humans are in this world. But the Kingdom of God being within us resides within the spirit of man, not our physical flesh. Before we have been born again, the spirit in us gives us physical life, but cannot make us eternally alive in Christ. Only the Spirit of Christ in us can make us eternally alive, which is why we must be born again. I no longer think of myself as having the spirit of the world, but having the Spirit that is of God, freely given to us of God. I am no longer merely carnal man, but through His Spirit in me, I am spiritual, having been regenerated (born again) of Christ's Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11-13 (KJV) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm saying that Amillennialism is an historically-dignified position. It has been held by good Christians through much of Christian history. I don't have a problem with recognizing that.

Okay, thanks for clarifying what you meant.

And I'm not saying you believe Rev 11.15 is fulfilled either.

I wasn't sure what you were saying and that's why I said I'm not sure what you mean. I figured you might not have been saying that you thought I believe that it was fulfilled.

I know.

This is where the issue lies. We both may believe that the Kingdom of God exists universally forever. But we disagree on the point I mentioned, that the Prophets specified a certain kind of Kingdom reign that is not present now, but will be present in the eschaton.

Here's something to consider. We're talking about Christ's kingdom, right? Jesus Himself never said that His kingdom would be on earth with Him reigning over it personally and bodily on the earth. Instead, what He said about His kingdom is that it does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

You believe, as an Amil, that a kind of Kingdom reign is taking place right now. I don't. I believe that even though there is a heavenly Kingdom right now--one that presently impacts the earth, I don't believe it impacts the earth in the eschatological sense.

I can't comprehend what you said here at all. You acknowledge that the kingdom impacts the earth, but not in the eschatological sense? That blows my mind. That comes across that you think the current kingdom is meaningless.

So, I can't agree that there is an eschatological reign on earth right now. And apparently, you agree with me.

I don't believe in any reign on the earth in the way that you think it will be during the supposed future thousand years. But, I certainly believe that we are priests of Christ right now in His spiritual, heavenly kingdom (Revelation 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9) and we are on earth right now.

You just think that because there is a heavenly Kingdom right now that Christians already reign.

Of course. Do you deny that we are priests in the kingdom of Christ right now? Scripture says that we are.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

And I don't believe that's Scriptural. I believe our reign takes place only in the eschaton.

Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:9 is scripture. I believe you are not accepting or not understanding what scriptures like those indicate.

A major theme of the Prophets involves the coming into existence of Israel and a multitude of nations confessing faith in the God of Abraham. That was in part fulflled when Israel entered into covenant with God under the Law. And it was further fulfilled when Christian nations came into existence.

Individuals confess faith in God, not nations. You already know that I strongly disagree with your beliefs about supposed Christian nations. There is no such thing. There are Christian individuals from all nations who together form "one body" of Christ (the church) and we are "a holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9) in a spiritual sense. There is only one Christian nation (the spiritual Israel of God).

However, Abraham's promises are said to lead to Israel being politically saved for all time, never more to be oppressed by other nations. That has not happened in the present age, and will not happen in the present age. Therefore, I believe it will take place in the age that follows Christ's return.

I completely disagree with your understanding of the promises made to Abraham. Paul made it clear that they apply to all Christian individuals (Romans 3:26-29) and have nothing to do with nations.

Furthermore, Christian nations have all been falling in the present age. This also needs to be fixed, which will take place, I believe, after Christ returns.

So, the Prophets predict a time of peace between nations on earth--a Messianic Age. This has not happened yet. It most certainly is not happening in the present age!

I could not possibly disagree more. There is nothing in scripture matching what you describe. There are no Christian nations. There never have been and never will be. Christianity is based on individual, personal faith in Jesus Christ and is not a national thing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How long did it take for Adam and Eve to turn against God's word--probably within the course of a single conversation? How long will it take non-Born Again people to respond to Satan's incitement? Not long.

Were Adam and Eve on the earth for 1,000 years in the presence of Jesus in all His glory before rebelling? Obviously not. So, that isn't a valid comparison.

 

[rwb]

Are these all referring to different battles at different times, or are they all referring to "a spiritual battle lasting for the entire gospel age"?

The battles we read of are all of the same nature that is the spiritual battle being waged between the forces of good and the forces of evil.

His saints are seen coming with Him for the final battle clothed in white linen - which suggests that He had already appeared in the clouds (Matthew 24:29-31), and they had already risen from the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), and those still alive had been changed and been caught up to meet the Lord in the air

When the saints return with Christ at the end of this age it shall not be to battle, but to be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible after sin and death through sin has been thoroughly defeated, that we might live with Christ forevermore on the new earth.