False Christs, False Prophets and False Teachers. These are the days we live in.

[GodsGrace]

Guess I'm gettin' ghosted... <chuckles>

@GodsGrace

Grace and peace to all.

I'm tired PinSeeker.
I long to be with Christians that are the same as I am.
I live in a Catholic country and would like to have some serious convo.
What do I find?
Some call themselves Christian but don't believe Jesus is God.

The reformed are Christian but they preach a different gospel.
Some believe we need to be baptized - Jesus said it.
Some believe we could choose.
Ya know...there's a problem with Protestantism.
But I can't be Catholic either.
Your smiles and chuckles used to bother me because I kinda like serious convo...
but I?ve gotten used to it and it's just your way of talking.
I will reply when I get over this - whatever it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmm, maybe so, but that wasn't the idea I got from that... <smile> If so, then maybe she should have been clearer about that, but whatever.

Grace and peace to you, PS95.

@PS95 is right.
Tomorrow....

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm tired PinSeeker.

I understand; no worries. I was really just being somewhat playful with you... <smile>

I long to be with Christians that are the same as I am. I live in a Catholic country and would like to have some serious convo. What do I find? Some call themselves Christian but don't believe Jesus is God.

Interesting. Yes, I understand. Christians longing to be with other Christians is definitely a thing. <smile>

The reformed are Christian but they preach a different gospel.

Ah, well, we all preach Christ and Him crucified, do we not? Based on what we've been discussing, it's not a "different gospel," per se. For sure there is some disagreement on some details, but a different Gospel? I think not.

Some believe we need to be baptized - Jesus said it.
Some believe we could choose.
Ya know...there's a problem with Protestantism.
But I can't be Catholic either.

Hmmmm. Interesting statements and assertions, these. In order:

• The first depends on which baptism you're talking about, and who (or Who) administers it. <smile>
• The second, as I said before, is... well, I'll just say that to think we can't choose, or don't, is... silly. <smile> And this is coming from a reformed, five-point <smile> Calvinist... <chuckles>
• The third... could mean anything, I guess; no idea what you mean...
• And the fourth... good. <smile>

Your smiles and chuckles used to bother me because I kinda like serious convo...

I put them in really just to provide a little non-verbal communication, and the intent is to be non-combative... and winsome, as much as possible on a static forum like this where there is no real personal interaction. And I have to admit that sometimes it's really just kinda fun... <smile>

but I?ve gotten used to it and it's just your way of talking.

Ah... no... see above.

Hmm, maybe so, but that wasn't the idea I got from that... <smile> If so, then maybe she should have been clearer about that, but whatever.

Grace and peace to you, PS95.

@PS95 is right. Tomorrow.... I will reply when I get over this - whatever it is.

Again, fair enough; no worries. Grace and peace!

Grace and peace!

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL! Well, we would agree about Catholicism, more or less. But they do get some things right... <smile>

Good morning,
We were discussing new doctrine.
I believe any doctrine formulated just a few hundred years ago qualifies as new in a religion that is 2 thousand years old.
This includes doctrine such as OSAS, SALVATION THROUGH FAITH ALONE, (which disqualifies works which the NT commands).

It also includes denominations or sects which have come to be described as Christain...such as the JW, Christian Science, Latter Day Saints, etc.

And, I'm sorry to say, I'd have to include the Reformed faith in this batch....
One may believe what he believes...but to say that this faith system goes back to the beginning would not be correct.

Christianity existed for 400 years before Augustine formulated his new ideas about predestination...thus necessitating a whole new system...due to his belief that man has no free will.

And as to Catholics getting some things right:
They do not accept predestination.
They believe man has free will.
And, yes, they got a lot right...

It's the catholic church that established Christianity and its theology/Christology.

Like every denomination, they get some things right and some are a little off the scope of the NT teachings.

I mean, we're all sinners. Not an excuse, but it is what it is. None of us are anywhere close to perfect (but we will be...). As Paul said even of himself, we "do the things we know we ought not to do, and we don't do the things we know we should do." And as John says, "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." But, he says, "if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So as Christians, hopefully our lives are lives of continual confession and repentance and keeping in step with the Spirit. Now, this is no "license to sin," as many allege; Paul addresses this very thing in his letter to the Romans (6:15-18), writing, "Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

Sure.
But I was speaking about Augustine.
It was his extremely guilty conscience that made him finally determine that he had no real free will and it was God who was responsible for not only ALLOWING him to sin,,,but determining when he DID sin.

LOL! See above. Augustine knew very well... and hopefully all Christians know even today... that God is not the author of sin. Augustine... and later John Calvin and all the reformers... knew that although there is now no condemnation (Romans 8:1) for Christians ~ all of whom, if they truly are born again of the Spirit, are in Christ Jesus ~ there are certainly consequences for sin, and we are to live lives becoming the followers of Christ that we are. This is what we are created for by God, born again of the Spirit of God and thus of God Himself, for good works (Ephesians 2:4-10). Thusly, our will is to do God's will (rather than what was the case prior to that).

Agreed.
The problem here is that the reformed faith teaches that God does not only allow sin, but created it.

Which Confession do you follow?
Let's try the Baptist, 1689.

Chapter 3
3.1-3
1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4

Is there a contradiction here?
It states:
God has decreed everything that occurs.
Yet He is not the author of sin.
The decree does not violate man's will.
It does not affect second causes....but God establishes second causes.
He DIRECTS all things.

Calvin actually taught that God created sin for His own benefit and uses it as such.

How can a person accept this definition of God?
When the NT teaches that God is all good and in Him there is no darkness.

Neither Augustine nor Calvin taught this in any way, shape, or form. I think the clearest place in the Bible that explains the true dynamic here (besides what Paul says in Romans 6, cited above) is what he says to the Philippians (2:13), where he exhorts us all to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." So we do the willing and working, but it is because of God's work in us, the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

Please explain what I just posted above.
And I can get my Calvin Institutes if necessary.

As to Philippians 2:13....
This is what I'm tired of Pinseeker.
Debating with Christians what the bible is teaching.
You see it through your lens
I see it through mine.
Who is right?
Pilippians 2:13....sounds good but it stands alone and means something different than how you might be understanding it.


GOD WORKS IN US:
Did Jesus not say that He would send the Holy Spirit to be our helper?
It does not mean that God is causing, directly, any action in us.
We are free to act as we will.

In fact in Phil 2,,,Paul is giving instruction of HOW to live.
We need instruction because we have free will to either obey or not obey.

1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

Well, Pelagius soft-pedalled it (the work of the Holy Spirit in man) greatly, albeit maybe unintentionally, thereby in effect making man out to be responsible ~ and praiseworthy, actually ~ for his salvation, as Jacobus Arminius later did in his objections to John Calvin's writings and teachings.

Pelagius denied the Holy Spirit's work/function.
We cannot go from one extreme to the other.

I mean, I'm not Catholic, but anybody is silly not to believe in man's free will. The disagreement really doesn't have anything to do with free will, but the heart, the spirit of the person, which always drives the will.

You believe in libertarian free will?

If you say that we do what we WANT to do,,,
and God changed our heart...

Then you're explaining compatibalist free will...
quite a big difference.

Right; what you have said is NOT what Augustine taught. <smile> It is the perception of many, but not what he actually taught.

Are you saying that Augustine did NOT teach the absence of man's free will?
I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

In the experiential sense, after we are born again of the Spirit, this is true. Although I wouldn’t call it “synergy,” or “cooperation ,” really, because, well, God + us = salvation ~ as if the credit, and again the praise and glory ~ is not a valid equation. God gives us spiritual life and even His Holy Spirit, Who dwelling in us then empowers us to bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and sustains us in our working and serving and persevering to the day of Christ. The credit for both our present and future salvation is not divided in any proportion between God and man. Again, in Paul's words to the Ephesians (2:4-10):

• "God made us alive together with Christ⁠ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing but the gift of God, and so we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Agreed. God created us for good works...just as your verse states.
If you believe that God does not FORCE us to do these goods works,,,
then it is our COOPERATION with God's help that we do them.

And Paul's exhortation to the Philippians (and us; 2:12-13):

• We are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us, so that we then will and work for His good pleasure."

God's grace comes to us free, else it is not grace. And then, it does indeed place a great responsibility ~ to Him, of course ~ on us. But there is no "synergy" in being born again of the Spirit. By God's grace we are saved. Salvation is of the Lord. To Him be the glory, and to Him alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Who said we pay for grace?

As to cooperation:

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.
9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.


We will each be rewarded according to our own labor...whatever that labor may be...in Paul's case it was his ministry.

We are created for good works. Ephesians 2:10

Jesus meant for us to expand His Kingdom on earth..this requires cooperating with Jesus' desire.

Justification is immediate and is by faith alone.
Sanctification is a life-long process which requires our obedience to God...obeying is cooperating.


2 Corinthians 5:20
20So we are ambassadors who represent Christ. God is negotiating with you through us. We beg you as Christ's representatives, "Be reconciled to God!"


When we represent God...we are cooperating with His ministry - or witnessing to further His Kingdom

Prayer is also cooperation - but enough.

As did Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards even up to many great Christians pastors/teachers/commentators today. Yeah, the Civil and Ceremonial parts of the Law are no longer binding upon Christians, but the Moral certainly is. As Jesus said, the whole Law depends on the greatest commandments, first to love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and second to love your neighbor as yourself. Yes, each of us will be judged according to what we have done (Romans 2:4), which we see graphically in Jesus's depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

Am going to just agree to this...not going back to see to what you're responding.
this post is becoming too long.

Of course not. God is not the author of sin. And again, it's not about making choices... not about the will. It's about the state of the heart, which either is what it is from birth (even from conception), or made to be what it is in being born again of the Spirit. It is the heart, the spirit, which is either of the devil or of God, that always drives the will. Thus Jesus says to a group of Jews in John 8 and John 10:

• "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God" (John 8:43-47))
• "you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)

Continued below...

Yes.
Compatiblist free will.
Already addressed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Continued from above...


See, all this is good, God'sGrace, and any Bible-believing Christian ~ even reformed ones... <smile> ~ will heartily agree with all these things. However... <smile> ...all these points can be misunderstood in the certain sense of soft-pedaling God's sovereignty over all things, all of His creation, including us, regarding His salvation and for people individually in particular, and their heart... their spirit... which God, of His free will and accord, either leaves in its natural state or gives new birth to. As Ezekiel says:

• "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (36:26-28).

I was making the point that there was Christian theology BEFORE Augustine regarding the will of man and it was accepted that man's will is free.

Ezekiel is speaking about the New Covenant.
Our heart of stone will be turned into a heart of flesh.
This does NOT mean that we lose our free will.
We can choose NOT to obey the Holy Spirit.


Ephesians 4:30
30Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

There is nothing there regarding our free will except that after receiving this new heart/spirit from God, our free will is then to do His will. And this is His prerogative, His purpose of election,

Again,,,,compatiblist free will.

His choosing of some, and not all, foreknowing them as such, which is synonymous with foreloving them, "though not yet born so having done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls" (Romans 9:11).

You are not properly representing Calvinism.
It is clearly stated that God does NOT look down the corridors of time.
it is God HIMSELF that chooses those that will be saved and those that will be passed over and left to be damned.

Baptist Confession

Chapter 3:3
3. By God’s decree, and for the demonstration of his glory, some human beings and angels are predestined (or foreordained) to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of his glorious grace.8 Others are left to live in their sin, leading to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.9

Chapter 3:5
5. Those people who are predestined to life were chosen by God before the foundation of the world, according to his eternal and unchangeable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will. He chose them in Christ for eternal glory, purely as a result of his free grace and love,11 without anything else about them serving as a condition or cause moving him to do so.12

You stated that the gospel is the same in the reformed faith.
The above shows that this is not correct.
The good news of the gospel is that man has the ABILITY to choose salvation for himself.

So in that sense ~ and this does nothing to insinuate man does not make a choice; he absolutely does, and a free one at that ~ being one of God's elect "does not depend not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), and as God Himself says through Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Exodus 33:19;

God had mercy on the Israelites.
God has mercy on those that accept His Son.
God has conditions that must be met.
The reformed do not believe this NT teachng.

Romans 9:15). So, Paul says, God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18). And as Paul says in Ephesians 1, "In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose... and thus ...we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will." This is Scripture, verbatim ~ emphasis mine ~ God'sGrace. God's Word is immutable; it cannot be refuted; it endures forever.

Yes sir.
Predestination is in the NT.
But it is NEVER for WHO will be saved,,,
but for
METHOD of salvation
PURPOSE

Ephesians 1 your verse
God predestined us for salvation THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
This refers to METHOD.

ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL.
This refers to PURPOSE (as is plainly stated).

ACCORDING TO THE PURPSE OF HIS WILL
God is sovereign and all will work out as He wishes,
but working with man's free will.
No conflict.

Right. Only God's Word is inspired... breathed by God (2 Timothy 3:16).

The above is in reference to my sarcastic statement about the ECFs.
Many will reply that they were not inspired.

Let's check:
WHO decided what was heretical in the early churh?
WHO established the NT canon?
WHO taugth the Christian faith before there was even a bible?
WHO asembled the books in the NT?
WHO did the Apostles teach in order to carry on our faith?

Yes.
The Early Church Fathers.
Early Church Fathers.
Pre Nicea.
Pre Augustine.

1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

Actually, Augustine DID change basic Christian doctrine.
FREE WILL
BAPTISM OF INFANTS

How long would you like this post to be?

Right. I neither said nor insinuated any such thing. Sir. <smile>

Seemed that you did,,,but no matter.
I think you know that I'm a girl.

Nope. Nobody can actually do that...


Ah, well... should, in the sense that we should not... deprive... or withhold... the sign and seal of God's promise from them. And that's what Peter taught that in Acts 2, specifically verse 38, that we and all our households and all who are far off should be baptized, that the promise is for us and our children. He put no qualifying age or level of cognition or ability on that...

Agreed.
Augustine changed infant baptism too.

Again, should, but only in the sense that we should not... deprive... or withhold... the sign and seal of God's promise from them. But many believe in believers' baptism only, and that's okay, really, but there is no Biblical mandate ~ or even justification ~ for withholding this sign and seal of God's covenant from them. You may not believe this, but I think you will see it in Colossians 2:11-12... water baptism has replaced in the New Testament church the ceremonial rite of circumcision, which was given to Abraham as the sign and seal of God's covenant in Genesis 17, and circumcision was to be performed on males on the eighth day of the life of every newborn male as commanded by God. Now baptism, which is for all our children, male and female... while it doesn't have to be precisely on the eighth day... should follow the same pattern. Much like we are not commanded to tithe, as the Old Testament Israelites were (nowhere in the New Testament does anything explicit regarding a tithe appear), but we should give freewill offerings, thereby following the same pattern of old.

Agreed.

Hmmm... well, I agree and disagree, in different senses... What if that existing teaching (even two weeks ago) was itself heretical (or just wrong)? <smile> But yes, "all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of grass, and the grass withers, and the flower falls, but (only) the Word of the Lord remains forever."

The church....the original church....
has seen to it that heresy was removed from the early church.

Agree. They deny Christ, so yes, of course not.


Okay. <smile>


If it is truly new, and out of accord with God's Word, yes.


Okay, right, but reformed folk do not teach such. See above.

Pinseeker...reformed theology teaches that man does not have free will.
Do we really have to define free will?

Free will is the ability to choose between two moral alternatives.

This is biblical free will...
Philosophical free will is different and has nothing to do with theology.

Ah, well, yes in a sense, but no in another sense; the Holy Spirit protects us from such.


Right, evil, unbelieving hearts, and are they so? Why do they not believe? See what Jesus says in John 8 and 10, cited above...

Persons do not believe for differing reasons and I'm not getting into speculation.

Indeed. But Who (capital 'W') really gets the credit ~ and glory, of course ~ for...

• our "be(ing) born again... to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5?
• "keeping us from stumbling," as Jude says in Jude 24?

To God be the glory. And may we, in the words of Paul in Colossians 3,

• "let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..." ~ don't be anxious (Matthew 6) "...to which indeed we were called in one body..."
• "...and be thankful..."
• "...and let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing each another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in our hearts to God..."
• and may we, "...whatever we do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."

Grace and peace to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, God'sGrace.

All credit goes to God Almighty.

See, I could post like Auntie Jane too.
But I don't have much time so don't get used to it !

 

[Jay Ross]

There is a plague in this modern era. It is an infectious agent running amok in the body of Christ. It is an infirmity of lies and deception. It is a vile contagion that infects many and they in turn infect others. It's ultimate goal is the damnation of the soul.

My observation and experience on this forum is, that there are many members presenting false commentary which bears no resemblance to the scriptures that they are abusing and misquoting.

How do I know this? Because the rebuttals they present are personalised put downs of the person rather than present rebuttals on the truth that they believe provides sufficient clarity as to why their rebuttals are factually based on the scriptures that they are expounding upon.

People have a right to post what they believe is the truth but that right to post requires that they are also responsible for what they are posting and is unbiased and truthful.

Anyway, as has been already posted, this rot goes back to the very beginning of the "Church" and will continue until Christ returns with fire to refine the Saints so that the dross is left behind and they, the Saints, move forward in step with Christ.

Shalom

 

[GodsGrace]

My observation and experience on this forum is, that there are many members presenting false commentary which bears no resemblance to the scriptures that they are abusing and misquoting.

How do I know this? Because the rebuttals they present are personalised put downs of the person rather than present rebuttals on the truth that they believe provides sufficient clarity as to why their rebuttals are factually based on the scriptures that they are expounding upon.

People have a right to post what they believe is the truth but that right to post requires that they are also responsible for what they are posting and is unbiased and truthful.

Anyway, as has been already posted, this rot goes back to the very beginning of the "Church" and will continue until Christ returns with fire to refine the Saints so that the dross is left behind and they, the Saints, move forward in step with Christ.

Shalom

I've had to get off my own thread due to the extreme statements made by so called Christains.
The frustration has become too much.

I do want to disagree with you on one statement you've made.
The early chuch preserved what the Apostles taugth and passed on what they taught.
I guess we'd have to define what you mean by the early church.

As to the rest, I agree with you and am confounded by HOW unorthodox teachings have crept into our great religion which is known as CHRISTIANITY.

 

[PinSeeker]

We were discussing new doctrine.

Well, okay, what you think is, or are just branding as, "new doctrine."

I believe any doctrine formulated just a few hundred years ago qualifies as new in a religion that is 2 thousand years old.

I do, too, actually, but nothing I have talked about is new in that sense, or even close.

This includes doctrine such as OSAS...

So this is certainly not an exhaustive list...

• "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus... we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8)
• "...In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Ephesians 1)
• "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1)
• "...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... according to His great mercy... has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1)

...this is "new doctrine" to you?

SALVATION THROUGH FAITH ALONE

And this...

• "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:4-9)

...is "new doctrine" to you?

(which disqualifies works which the NT commands).

It does absolutely no such thing...

• continuing Paul's quote in Ephesians 2... "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
• And James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Abraham our father (was) justified by works when he offered up his son... (his) faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works... faith apart from works is dead" (James 1:18-26).

No one "disqualifies" works. I'm not even sure what that means. Our good works are the outward evidence to all, even ourselves, of the saving faith we have been given. Goodness gracious.

Continued below:

 

[PinSeeker]

...continued from above:

I'm sorry to say...

Weeeeeeelllllll, no you're not... but that's okay... <smile>

, I'd have to include the Reformed faith in this batch....

Yeah no. See above. God says what He says. Somebody's in denial, here, but it's not me (or reformed folks)... <smile>

One may believe what he believes...

Sure...

but to say that this faith system goes back to the beginning would not be correct.

In... your humble, erstwhile opinion. Yeah I get it. <smile>

Christianity existed for 400 years before Augustine formulated his new ideas about predestination...thus necessitating a whole new system...due to his belief that man has no free will.

Well, Christianity existed from the beginning. <smile> I mean, before this, but regarding our father Abraham, he was called by God, and he believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, which takes us all the way back to Genesis 15... but the first proclamation of the Gospel, explicit, though veiled, is Genesis 3:15 ~ "...He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

And as to Catholics getting some things right: They do not accept predestination. They believe man has free will.

Hmmm, okay, well, regarding predestination, Paul mentions it explicitly in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, so if they don't, they're certainly going against God's Word on that; what you may mean is that they do not accept predestination for what God really says it is, and that may be true. On free will, I think everybody believes man has free will... <smile>

It's the catholic church that established Christianity and its theology/Christology.

Uhhh... I kinda thing God "established" Christianity... and theology, and Christology... <smile> I mean, it is what it is, no?

...I was speaking about Augustine. It was his extremely guilty conscience that made him finally determine that he had no real free will and it was God who was responsible for not only ALLOWING him to sin,,,but determining when he DID sin.

<eye roll> How could you possibly think you know what Augustine's conscience was? <chuckles> I mean, one can only really know his/her own conscience, not anyone else's, much less someone who has been dead for over 1500 years. Goodness gracious.

And... him "determin(ing) that he had no real free will," and that he actually thought "it was God who was responsible for not only allowing him to sin, but determining when he did sin"... What even gives you any justification in making that assertion? Now, to this, I will say there is a certain sense ~ a certain sense, God'sGrace ~ in which that's true, but my guess is you don't or can't or won't distinguish between the two very different senses I'm speaking of.

The problem here is that the reformed faith teaches that God does not only allow sin, but created it.

Well now that would be a problem, God'sGrace, but that the reformed faith teaches such is absolutely, unequivocally not true. It may be your opinion, or perception, but it is absolutely not the case.

Which Confession do you follow? Let's try the Baptist, 1689.

I would prefer the Westminster Confession of Faith, but okay...

Is there a contradiction here?

<chuckles>

It states: God has decreed everything that occurs. Yet He is not the author of sin. The decree does not violate man's will. It does not affect second causes....but God establishes second causes. He DIRECTS all things.

The WCF is very, very similar, if not exactly the same.

Calvin actually taught that God created sin for His own benefit and uses it as such. How can a person accept this definition of God? When the NT teaches that God is all good and in Him there is no darkness.

Not that He created it, but otherwise, sure. And for our benefit, too, those of us who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). And remember what John says: "We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Please explain what I just posted above.

Sure. One brief sentence should suffice: God uses sin... uses the sinful hearts and sinful acts of those who possess sinful hearts... sinlessly, even to the purpose of glorifying Himself.

And I can get my Calvin Institutes if necessary.

You can if you want; I have them, too, of course...

As to Philippians 2:13.... You see it through your lens... I see it through mine.

It says what it says, God'sGrace. I'm certainly open to hearing how you "see it." In so many conversations like this, I have quoted so many passages from Scripture and explained them (if needed), and asked those in disagreement for... oh, alternative understandings... <smile> ...and to this day have received nothing in return.

Who is right?

<smile>

Philippians 2:13....sounds good but it stands alone and means something different than how you might be understanding it...

I mean, yeah, it stands alone; God (through Paul, of course) said it. But after that... I don't think so... <smile> Even to your following statements... Well, okay:

You said, "...It does not mean that God is causing, directly, any action in us. We are free to act as we will... Paul is giving instruction of HOW to live. We need instruction because we have free will to either obey or not obey." God's Grace, I agree with all these statements and/or assertions, and in fact have said those very things. Now:

It is... very interesting... that you say 'directly'... So, do you believe that He is causing actions in us... from us, by us... indirectly? If so, then I'm with you there, one hundred percent. This statement is analogous to... synonymous with... what Paul also says in Ephesians 2:10 (cited previously), that "we are (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them," right? Right, so yes, we do the walking, and in terms of Philippians 2:13 we do the willing and working. So sure, we freely do these things. God does not will and work for us, with which you agree, I think; we freely do the willing and working.

Now, this is our willing, working, and walking in obedience to God, right? So what I'm getting at here is the indirect aspect, which you seem to agree with, and that fit's perfectly with what Ezekiel says in his prophecy... actually what God says through Ezekiel:

• "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses" (11:19-20; 36:25-29)

Yes, indirectly ~ indirectly in that God gives us this new heart, this new spirit... He puts His Spirit within us ~ causes our obedience. But yes, He does not obey for us... we do that; we walk in obedience... as a result of His having given us a new heart/spirit, because of our having been born again of the Spirit. So, as I have said I don't know how many times to how many people, the issue is not our will or whether it is free or not, it is our heart, the state of our heart, which is naturally, originally not of God, but after we have been born again is of God.

For now... <smile> ...grace and peace to you, God'sGrace.

 

[PinSeeker]

Pelagius denied the Holy Spirit's work/function.

Well then bad on him, if he did... <smile> If he did he got that wrong, along with some other things...

We cannot go from one extreme to the other.

<chuckles>

Are you saying that Augustine did NOT teach the absence of man's free will?

Of course. Who in their right mind would teach that man does not have free will? Neither Augustine nor Calvin, nor any of the reformers taught such.

However... <smile> ...ohhhhh, please be careful with what I'm about to say, God'sGrace... <smile> Please. <smile>

In the sense of what Jesus says in John 8 and John 10, we never have free will. Again, in a certain sense. Never. He says to a group of Jews, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires" (John 8:44), and to another group of Jews, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me..." (John 10:27-29). Now, if we are born again of the Spirit, then our will is to do the Father's will. So, ithat sense, in those two senses, actually, our will is never free... or, more accurately, depending on whose ~ or Whose ~ we are, we freely will accordingly. <smile>

If you believe that God does not FORCE us to do these goods works,,,

Of course He doesn't. Of course.

then it is our COOPERATION with God's help that we do them.

Well, if by this you mean to say that because of the work of God's Spirit in our hearts, then yes. But really more in response to what God has done for us and in us. The best way to say it, again, is with what John says in 1 John 4:19, as I said above... "We love because God first loved us." And our love is not just a... "warm fuzzy feeling," I'm sure you agree. Our love takes the form of good works. This is what It means to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And to love our neighbors as ourselves. In that way, this love and good works are synonymous. And it is a responsibility, to be sure; good works are what God has called us to do.

If you think along those lines, then fine. I don't like the use of the word 'cooperation,' because it implies that at least to some extent, we are responsible for our own salvation, for saving ourselves, and even that we are deserving of praise and worship, again, at least to some extent, for doing so. If you are not implying that in any way, then fine. <smile>

Who said we pay for grace?

Uhhh... what? I wasn't saying anybody does; it was saying we have done nothing to deserve it, God'sGrace, and I'm sure you agree with that; Paul says that very thing, basically, in Romans 11:6, regarding being a member of God's elect: "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." And in Ephesians 2:8, regarding being born again of the Spirit and salvation itself: "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." You agree, I think...

As to cooperation:

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.
9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

We will each be rewarded according to our own labor... We are created for good works. Ephesians 2:10... Jesus meant for us to expand His Kingdom on earth..this requires cooperating with Jesus' desire... Justification is immediate and is by faith alone. Sanctification is a life-long process which requires our obedience to God...

Preaching to the choir... Or to another preacher... I think 'cooperation' is a... questionable... word choice. <smile>

obeying is cooperating.

Responding. Acting in obedience, God'sGrace is a response. Obeying is an action of our own, a positive response to a directive or commandment ~ His directive/commandment. It is not "cooperation" ~ God does not to some extent obey Himself like, 50%, and then we obey the other 50%, right? I mean, right; of course not.

I was making the point that there was Christian theology BEFORE Augustine regarding the will of man and it was accepted that man's will is free.

Okay, fair enough, and Augustine did nothing to refute that.

Ezekiel is speaking about the New Covenant. Our heart of stone will be turned into a heart of flesh.

It's a picture of our salvation, of our being born again of the Spirit of the living God.

This does NOT mean that we lose our free will.

Of course not. Goodness gracious.

We can choose NOT to obey the Holy Spirit.

We can, but if we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, we will not intentionally do so. Again, Jesus says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10).

You are not properly representing Calvinism.

Then you misunderstand Calvinism. What you think is Calvinism is what has come to be called hyper-Calvinism, which is a contortion, a caricature, really ~ which is largely unintentional ~ of what John Calvin actually taught.

It is clearly stated that God does NOT look down the corridors of time. it is God HIMSELF that chooses those that will be saved and those that will be passed over and left to be damned.

And this is true.

You stated that the gospel is the same in the reformed faith.

Ah, well, the other way around, really, the reformed faith is in accordance with the Gospel.

Continued (1 of 2)...

 

[PinSeeker]

From above (2 of 2)...

The good news of the gospel is that man has the ABILITY to choose salvation for himself.

Yes, but only because... he/she has been born again of the Spirit. Paul again:

• "...we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:3-9)

And Jesus, of course, in response to the disciples asking Him, "Who then can be saved?"... "looking at them":

• "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27); “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).

God had mercy on the Israelites. God has mercy on those that accept His Son.

But not because they accept Him, God's Grace. That solely depends on His giving that salvific, electing mercy and compassion, which Paul explicitly says in Romans 9, quoting Moses from Exodus 33, where Moses quotes God Himself: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” "So.." Paul says in Romans 9, "...then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy," the 'it' referring to God's purpose of election, and our being or not being one of His elect. His salvific mercy does not depend on man's acceptance.

God has conditions that must be met.

Not initially. Else grace is not grace... again referring to what Paul explicitly says in Romans 11:6.

The reformed do not believe this NT teachng.

Well they do, if... if... one understands correctly... and "the reformed" do... the conditions are after one is born again, and then Who ~ because of His work in us ~ because of our sanctification, as you said, which is a work of the Holy Spirit through the remainder of our lives ~ really gets the credit for us having done these good works.

Predestination is in the NT.

Right, but is not relevant only to those in New Testament times (after the coming of Jesus), but before also. <smile>

But it is NEVER for WHO will be saved,,,

In Romans 9 it is. And Exodus 33. Again, God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” "So.." Paul says in Romans 9, "...then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy," the 'it' referring to God's purpose of election and, individually, our being or not being one of His elect.

Ephesians 1 your verse
God predestined us for salvation THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
This refers to METHOD.

Hm. You still think that despite the 'us' there. Predestined us. This is WHAT HE DID FOR US, not HOW HE DID IT. The 'how' is Jesus's work on the cross; this is how He accomplished our redemption. And the method, regarding us now, having been born again of the Spirit, is by our sanctification, which you talked about above, which is the work of the Spirit over the course of the remainder of our lives; we are being made holy, set apart for and to the living God.

ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL. This refers to PURPOSE (as is plainly stated).

LOL! Yes, I agree, but the point is it's His will, not ours... Now, to do His will is our will, but because it is His will, and because we have this new spirit in us given to us by God... again, we love because He first loved us.

ACCORDING TO THE PURPoSE OF HIS WILL God is sovereign and all will work out as He wishes,

Yes...

but working with man's free will. No conflict.

I agree for sure with the 'no conflict' part... <smile> But "working with man's free will".... ugh. Again, our will is to do the Father's will because He has made us His, made us of Him, according to His will. He has not manipulated our will, but has given us a new spirit, even His own Spirit, so that then our will ~ our free will ~ is to do His will, and not that of our former father the devil. We are no longer "children of wrath," but with Jesus, the Son, sons of the living God.

The above is in reference to my sarcastic statement about the ECFs. Many will reply that they were not inspired.

You know, I'm not even sure if you're arguing or debating here or not... <smile> But they were not. God did not breath His Word into them by His Spirit as He did the writers of Scripture. A lot of great things have been written, but none inspired in the sense of the Holy Spirit actually superintending the writing of Scripture.

Actually, Augustine DID change basic Christian doctrine.

Nope. There was disagreement essentially from the beginning; Augustine and Pelagius were the two most well known... um, adversaries, if you will...

FREE WILL

Already addressed; see above...

BAPTISM OF INFANTS

Ah, well, first, what does Peter say in Acts 2:38? You remember, surely: "Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

And second, wfater baptism, God'sGrace, has in the New Testament replaced circumcision in the Old Testament as the sign and seal of the Covenant (which you should be able to see in Colossians 2:11-12 ~ "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised Him from the dead"), and is to follow the same general pattern of circumcision, which God commanded Abraham and the Israelites of old to perform on all male children at eight days of age.

I think you know that I'm a girl.

I did not know that. Great!

Pinseeker...reformed theology teaches that man does not have free will.

It absolutely does not. For the... well I've lost count; how many times now? Again, I get that you think that, but... <smile>

All credit goes to God Almighty.

Indeed. To God be the glory.

See, I could post like Auntie Jane too. But I don't have much time so don't get used to it !

Um... Okay, whatever... <smile>

Grace and peace!

 

[bdavidc]

There is a plague in this modern era. It is an infectious agent running amok in the body of Christ. It is an infirmity of lies and deception. It is a vile contagion that infects many and they in turn infect others. It's ultimate goal is the damnation of the soul.

I totally agree. There are many false teachers on this very forum and other Christian forums I am on. They try to change what the Bible says to say what they want it to say because they don't want to face the truth. But that will not work in the end for them. They are relentless. I really don't know what they get out of it.

They are not of the body of Christ. They are false teachers and fake Christians.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says: "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness."

 

[stevesonthebay]

I have been thinking about the age of false teachers and prophets in the context from the early church until today. When did the church stray ?. How did it stray ? ect and there has been many debates as to this.

Which includes the demominal debates and how today the church is so divided.

I think basically if we take an overall view it seems logical that the further the church and the world moves away from the Cross and naturally progresses and modernises. The more the church and the world will blend. The more the world will creep into the church.

Because the world is so secular now compared to in the early church and even up until recent times. The world has become so dominant with what it offers and demands by just living in a modern secular society. That to be a church like in early times will look radically different and out of date.

So it is no surprise that there are many false teachers and prophets who are bring the world into the church believing it is good. Because the worlds morals and ideas have become the churches. Satan has managed to create a copycate version of Gods Kingdom. But its a socially constructed and human made secular kingdom.

It has all the good looking fruit. But after a while it goes bad and gets exposed. But people are fooled at first as it looks good.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think basically if we take an overall view it seems logical that the further the church and the world moves away from the Cross and naturally progresses and modernises. The more the church and the world will blend. The more the world will creep into the church.

As Paul said, "the time is coming..." (and is now here, of course; it was even in the early days of the Church) "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths..." (2 Timothy 4:3). But ~ and not to say you or anyone else here is doing it, but... ~ don't discount the Holy Spirit's work even today in all of us. <smile>

Beyond that, though, we shouldn't get so hung up on disagreements about details. The essentials are what is really important, i.e., who Jesus is and what He did for us chief among them... Those are not debatable... can be no disagreement. I knew a guy for a time who liked to put it this way: The main thing is to keep the Main Thing the main thing. <smile>

It has all the good looking fruit. But after a while it goes bad and gets exposed. But people are fooled at first as it looks good.

There's nothing new under the sun, really...

Grace and peace to you and all.

 

[mailmandan]

I totally agree. There are many false teachers on this very forum and other Christian forums I am on. They try to change what the Bible says to say what they want it to say because they don't want to face the truth. But that will not work in the end for them. They are relentless. I really don't know what they get out of it.

They are not of the body of Christ. They are false teachers and fake Christians.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says: "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness."

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have been thinking about the age of false teachers and prophets in the context from the early church until today. When did the church stray ?. How did it stray ? ect and there has been many debates as to this.

Which includes the demominal debates and how today the church is so divided.

I think basically if we take an overall view it seems logical that the further the church and the world moves away from the Cross and naturally progresses and modernises. The more the church and the world will blend. The more the world will creep into the church.

Because the world is so secular now compared to in the early church and even up until recent times. The world has become so dominant with what it offers and demands by just living in a modern secular society. That to be a church like in early times will look radically different and out of date.

So it is no surprise that there are many false teachers and prophets who are bring the world into the church believing it is good. Because the worlds morals and ideas have become the churches. Satan has managed to create a copycate version of Gods Kingdom. But its a socially constructed and human made secular kingdom.

It has all the good looking fruit. But after a while it goes bad and gets exposed. But people are fooled at first as it looks good.

Hi Stevesonthebay
I couldn't agree with you more.
What's funny is that you've received a like from a member that doesn't even believe that Jesus is God...the main doctrine/teaching of the Christian faith !

The church certainly does not look like the early church.
What about its beliefs?

Seems to me that some are trying to change those too.

Paul warned about this.
Heretics existed in the early church and the early church kept out heresy.
WHO/WHAT is keeping out heresy today?

Do we hear any preaching from any pulpit about this?
I don't.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[GodsGrace]

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

You always say this.
We usually are referring to Believers.

Why discuss non-believers??
They're lost anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

As Paul said, "the time is coming..." (and is now here, of course; it was even in the early days of the Church) "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths..." (2 Timothy 4:3). But ~ and not to say you or anyone else here is doing it, but... ~ don't discount the Holy Spirit's work even today in all of us. <smile>

Beyond that, though, we shouldn't get so hung up on disagreements about details. The essentials are what is really important, i.e., who Jesus is and what He did for us chief among them... Those are not debatable... can be no disagreement. I knew a guy for a time who liked to put it this way: The main thing is to keep the Main Thing the main thing. <smile>


There's nothing new under the sun, really...

Grace and peace to you and all.

Even though I must disagree with reformed theology,,,,
They do believe in the core doctrines of Christianity and thus
can be defined as Christian.

Yes. We can know who is of the Christian RELIGION.