Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

[rwb]

Why do you even believe in a bodily resurrection in the future when you deny some of the passages undeniably pertaining to exactly that?

Luke 20:34-38 is crystal clear. I guess to everyone except for maybe you, that a bodily resurrection is what is in view.

Granted, the majority is not always right. But in this case how can only one person alone be interpreting Luke 20:34-38 correctly, but everyone else isn't?

I tend to think the doctrine of Amil has maybe messed up your thinking. Let me ask this then, which might prove my theory. Obviously, you weren't always an Amil. Which means there was a period of time when you weren't an Amil. During that period of time how did you interpret Luke 20:34-38? In the same manner you do now? Or in a different manner altogether?

I don't doubt or deny the immortal bodily resurrection that saints shall inherit when Christ comes again. What you don't seem to understand is the FACT that the Kingdom of God in heaven that Christ ushered in to man is not the physical Kingdom that shall be on the new earth when Christ comes again. NO! The Kingdom of God in heaven NOW is a spiritual Kingdom that flesh and blood shall not inherit. Acknowledging the spiritual Kingdom of God is problematic for some who believe that eternal life we inherit when we are born again cannot come until we are physically resurrected. That flies in the face of so many verses and passages of Scripture telling us that from the moment we believe in/on Christ and are born again of His Spirit the life we receive is ETERNAL, forever, never ending SPIRITUAL life in the Kingdom of God in heaven. I've already inherited, along with every other born again believer in Christ the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ within. That's why we already possess eternal life in Him that can never be lost and never die.

 

[Zao is life]

Man cannot possess eternal life and not possess eternal life at the same time! Anyone believing they can, has no understanding of ETERNAL LIFE! Eternal life is given forever, never to end and can never be lost through human disobedience.

The devil said the same thing to Eve (Genesis 3:4), and Adam believed it too.

So what on earth are you talking about? God alone possesses eternal life - but we are the descendants of CREATED human beings. Anyone who asserts or even implies anything else has no understanding of eternal life.

Your assertion about created human beings "possessing" the eternal life that is GIVEN IN CHRIST TO created human beings makes the created human being like the Creator, POSSESSING eternal life - same as the devil asserted in Genesis 3:4.

In the Word of God alone is life (John 1:4). (Genesis 3:4-5 asserts the opposite).

The only-begotten Son of God alone POSSESSES eternal life (in Himself) - John 5:26).

Eternal life is NOT given to the creature for it to possess, as though the created thing can possess that eternal life IN ITSELF (which is what your statements IMPLY). It is given IN CHRIST to the creature. He alone possesses eternal life. He alone is the Vine that gives us life - "Christ IN you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27).

ALL scripture teaches you that. Eternal life [zoe aionios] is given to us IN Christ. It is His Spirit IN us who IS our eternal life. The new birth is not talking about the "spiritual" "regeneration" of a 'dead' human spirit as false theology implies - it is talking about the life (Spirit) of Christ coming to live IN you, giving you eternal life [zoe] IN CHRIST - it's not talking about you yourself "possessing" eternal life, which is the possession of God alone:

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4);

It follows that if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ IN him, he does not have eternal life [zoe] in him - which is what John taught in 1 John 5:11-12:

11 "God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and

1. This life [zōḗ] is IN His Son:

2. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

Also, you are conflating life [zoe] (which is a noun) with living | being alive [zao] (which is a verb).

To be zao (alive) forever is to be immortal through (by) the life [zoe] of the Spirit of Christ IN us (the breath of life) giving us eternal life [zoe] IN HIM.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth [anagennáō] into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3).

The hope Peter is talking about is the resurrection of our body from the dead by our birth of the Spirit and presence of the life-giving Spirit of Christ IN US and through the power of HIS bodily resurrection.

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"For the law of the Spirit of the life [zoe] (which is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2) When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

No descendant of CREATED human beings will ever possess (OWN) the eternal life [zoe] that is given to us IN CHRIST, which He alone possesses (in Himself). In the Word of God is life (John 1:4). Genesis 3:4-5 states the opposite.

 

[rwb]

The devil said the same thing to Eve (Genesis 3:4), and Adam believed it too.

No the devil did not say they would be both eternally alive and not eternally alive also when they ate of the forbidden tree! He told them they would not die! That was the lie.

You're a broken record repeating the same thing again and again! The life we receive through Christ when we are born again is either eternal and gives us spiritual life forever that can never be forfeited, or Christ lied when He tells us the life we receive from Him shall never die!

 

[Davidpt]

I don't doubt or deny the immortal bodily resurrection that saints shall inherit when Christ comes again. What you don't seem to understand is the FACT that the Kingdom of God in heaven that Christ ushered in to man is not the physical Kingdom that shall be on the new earth when Christ comes again. NO! The Kingdom of God in heaven NOW is a spiritual Kingdom that flesh and blood shall not inherit. Acknowledging the spiritual Kingdom of God is problematic for some who believe that eternal life we inherit when we are born again cannot come until we are physically resurrected. That flies in the face of so many verses and passages of Scripture telling us that from the moment we believe in/on Christ and are born again of His Spirit the life we receive is ETERNAL, forever, never ending SPIRITUAL life in the Kingdom of God in heaven. I've already inherited, along with every other born again believer in Christ the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ within. That's why we already possess eternal life in Him that can never be lost and never die.

I get where you are coming from, except you are conflating some of these things.

Until the last trump sounds first, in the meantime---shall never die is not literally relevant yet. That only makes sense when this mortal puts on immortality. Even the saved that have already died still have to put on bodily immortality at the last trump. In order for them to never die they have to bodily live again first.

But that doesn't mean something silly, such as Amil and NOSAS, and one having part in the first resurrection, then the next minute no longer having part in it. That the saved that have already died, that they might somehow lose their bodily immortality before they are bodily raised. The saved that have already died are indeed never going to die. No one is disputing that. There is a process, though. That it is meaning as of the last trump since that is when all of the saved, including those that have already died, and those that are still physically alive at the time, put on bodily immortality. Which then equals none of these shall die. Because they will not be cast into the LOF instead, which equals--- to die.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Can you not see what this plainly says? Verse 43 & 44 clearly say, pertaining to the resurrection of the dead--it is raised in glory--it is raised in power--it is raised a spiritual body---there is a spiritual body.

Notice that it says a spiritual body. Not to be confused with disembodiment. A body and disembodiment are not remotely the same thing. Everyone should already know that. Therefore, verses 42-44 are meaning during the last trump, verses 51-57, not something already applicable to the here and now spiritually.

Amil theology has caused you to conflate some of these things. I'm not saying all Amils conflate some of these things. But you certainly do, and that it is Amil theology that brought you to this point since it couldn't have been Premil theology that did, for example. Don't blame that on Premil theology. I'm Premil and I understand 1 Corinthians 15:42-57 just fine.

Scripture interprets Scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption :

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption , and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption , and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory .


Apparently, you have death already being swallowed up in victory before the last trump even sounds first. And if so, that means you are disregarding the 'when' and 'then' in verse 54.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That's the chronology. First, one is bodily alive, then they are bodily dead(and was dead), then they are bodily alive again( I am alive for evermore) = shall never die. But not before one is bodily dead first. But after one is bodily dead then raised back to bodily life = shall never die. Amil is notorious for doing things in a different order than Christ did. For example. Christ overcame first, then He was rewarded with sitting in a throne. Amils sit in thrones, thus are rewarded first, before they even prove they have fully overcome, since there is such a thing as NOSAS in the meantime. IOW, NOSAS contradicts have overcome. Where Amil combined with NOSAS leads to absurd nonsense, that one is reigning on thrones with Christ one minute, then the next minute they no longer are. This utter absurdity could not possibly occur per Premil.

 

[Zao is life]

Christ lied when He tells us the life we receive from Him shall never die!

I agree. Christ never lies. You are the liar - parroting the same false theology that changes what Christ said.

(1) Eternal L-I-F-E [zoe]; and
(2) Immortality - to L-I-V-E, to be A-L-I-V-E [zao] forever

- are by and through the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) - because:

- He IS the Word of God in whom is life [zoe] (John 1:4)
- who became flesh (John 1:14)
- died for our sins, and
- rose again bodily from the dead, and
- as the Father has life [zoe] in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life [zoe] in Himself (John 5:26), and
- He IS the resurrection of the body from the dead [o' anastasis] AND
- the life [zoe] (John 11:25),
- who alone P-O-S-S-E-S-E-S immortality (1 Timothy 6:16),

so that whoever believes in Him will L-I-V-E, will be A-L-I-V-E [zao] (following the resurrection from the dead), though He die (John 11:25):

Jesus to Martha: (whose brother had just died): "Your brother shall rise again".

Martha: "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection [o anastasis] at the last day."

Jesus:

"I am the Resurrection [o anastasis]

and the ZOE! (the life).

He who believes in Me, though he die,

yet he shall live (ZAO: he shall be alive)."

(The resurrection of the dead renders the one who died alive [zao] again):

"And whoever is ZAO (alive) and believes in Me shall never die." (shall be immortal) (John 11:23-26).

The record penned by the apostle John has JESUS - who never lied - describing Himself as THE resurrection of the dead [o anastasis] and THE life [zoe], saying that whoever believes in Him shall live | be alive [zao] though they die bodily - in the context of Jesus telling Martha that her brother who had just died, will rise again.

There are two different concepts mentioned in the above passage: Life [zoe], and being alive | living [zao]- which is the expression of the life.

The one who is alive [zao] and has been given eternal life [zoe aionios] IN Christ the Lord will be alive [zao] and will never die FOLLOWING the resurrection of the body from the dead.

Below is an example of your changing what Jesus said and then lying about what He said - parroting the teaching of the false theology you adhere to because of your own determination to conflate zoe (life) with zao (to be alive | living):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

25 ".. He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall be "spiritually alive." 26 And whoever is "spiritually alive" and believes in Me shall be "spiritually alive" forever and ever. Do you believe this?"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

 

[rwb]

Until the last trump sounds first, in the meantime---shall never die is not literally relevant yet.

These words imply Christ to be a liar! Prove from the Bible that we have not eternal life through Christ when we believe in Him! Where is it written that we are not eternally saved until our body is raised immortal when the last trumpet sounds? Why do none of the following verses say we shall not be eternally saved until the last trumpet, and we become physically immortal & incorruptible? Of all the promises from these promises of salvation, none say or even imply that the eternal life we HAVE NOW shall not be eternal until our mortal body becomes immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds! You show you lack understanding of the spiritual eternal life we HAVE (not shall have) from the moment we believe being born again through God in us. Your eyes are fixed on physical things that belong to this world; therefore, you have not yet known the spiritual Kingdom of God that is not of this world but is of heaven, a spiritual realm we spiritually enter FOREVER, and can never be lost when we are born again.

John 10:28​

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.” – John 10:28

2 Timothy 1:12​

“That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.” – 2 Timothy 1:12

1 Thessalonians 5:24​

“The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.” – 1 Thessalonians 5:24

Hebrews 10:23​

“Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.” – Hebrews 10:23

Romans 8:38-39​

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Romans 8:38-39

Ephesians 1:13-14​

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.” – Ephesians 1:13-14

Romans 11:29​

“For God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.” – Romans 11:29

Philippians 1:6​

“Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” – Philippians 1:6

John 5:24​

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” – John 5:24

1 John 5:11-12​

“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.” – 1 John 5:11-12

Romans 10:9-10​

“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” – Romans 10:9-10

Ephesians 2:8-9​

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

Hebrews 11:1​

“Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” – Hebrews 11:1

Romans 8:16​

“The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” – Romans 8:16

Galatians 4:6​

“Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” – Galatians 4:6

1 John 3:24​

“The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.” – 1 John 3:24

Ephesians 4:30​

“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” – Ephesians 4:30

1 John 5:13​

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” – 1 John 5:13

2 Corinthians 5:1​

“For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.” – 2 Corinthians 5:1

James 1:6​

“But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.” – James 1:6

Luke 12:32​

“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.” – Luke 12:32

Titus 3:5​

“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” – Titus 3:5

2 Timothy 1:9​

“He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.” – 2 Timothy 1:9

Romans 5:1-2​

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God.” – Romans 5:1-2

Romans 3:23-24​

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” – Romans 3:23-24

John 1:16​

“Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.” – John 1:16

1 Peter 1:3-4

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you.” – 1 Peter 1:3-4

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” – John 3:16

John 14:2-3​

“My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” – John 14:2-3

Christ kept His promises to whosoever believes in Him! After leaving this world, He came again for all who believe through sending His Spirit to be in us. That through His Spirit the life we have when we are born again shall never end because that spiritual life is ETERNAL!

 

[rwb]

That only makes sense when this mortal puts on immortality. Even the saved that have already died still have to put on bodily immortality at the last trump. In order for them to never die they have to bodily live again first.

This statement proves your total lack of understanding of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven! You do not believe the Word of Christ! Man is NOT eternally saved through a body of flesh, not even immortal body of flesh! You just don't understand the Kingdom of God man of faith inherits according to grace through faith is NOT a physical Kingdom! It is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that we spiritually know and enter only when we have been born again! Have you truly been born again David?

 

[rwb]

I agree. Christ never lies. You are the liar - parroting the same false theology that changes what Christ said.

(1) Eternal L-I-F-E [zoe]; and
(2) Immortality - to L-I-V-E, to be A-L-I-V-E [zao] forever

- are by and through the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) - because:

- He IS the Word of God in whom is life [zoe] (John 1:4)
- who became flesh (John 1:14)
- died for our sins, and
- rose again bodily from the dead, and
- as the Father has life [zoe] in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life [zoe] in Himself (John 5:26), and
- He IS the resurrection of the body from the dead [o' anastasis] AND
- the life [zoe] (John 11:25),
- who alone P-O-S-S-E-S-E-S immortality (1 Timothy 6:16),

so that whoever believes in Him will L-I-V-E, will be A-L-I-V-E [zao] (following the resurrection from the dead), though He die (John 11:25):

Jesus to Martha: (whose brother had just died): "Your brother shall rise again".

Martha: "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection [o anastasis] at the last day."

Jesus:

"I am the Resurrection [o anastasis]

and the ZOE! (the life).

He who believes in Me, though he die,

yet he shall live (ZAO: he shall be alive)."

(The resurrection of the dead renders the one who died alive [zao] again):

"And whoever is ZAO (alive) and believes in Me shall never die." (shall be immortal) (John 11:23-26).

The record penned by the apostle John has JESUS - who never lied - describing Himself as THE resurrection of the dead [o anastasis] and THE life [zoe], saying that whoever believes in Him shall live | be alive [zao] though they die bodily - in the context of Jesus telling Martha that her brother who had just died, will rise again.

There are two different concepts mentioned in the above passage: Life [zoe], and being alive | living [zao]- which is the expression of the life [zao].

The one who is alive [zao] and has been given eternal life [zoe aionios] IN Christ the Lord will be alive [zao] and will never die FOLLOWING the resurrection of the body from the dead.

Below is an example of your changing what Jesus said and then lying about what He said - parroting the teaching of the false theology you adhere to because of your own determination to conflate zoe (life) with zao (to be alive | living):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

25 ".. He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall be "spiritually alive." 26 And whoever is "spiritually alive" and believes in Me shall be "spiritually alive" forever and ever. Do you believe this?"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Sorry, but I'm done with the parroting! Have a nice day!

 

[Zao is life]

These words imply Christ to be a liar! Prove from the Bible that we have not eternal life through Christ when we believe in Him! Where is it written that we are not eternally saved until our body is raised immortal when the last trumpet sounds? Why do none of the following verses say we shall not be eternally saved until the last trumpet, and we become physically immortal & incorruptible? Of all the promises from these promises of salvation, none say or even imply that the eternal life we HAVE NOW shall not be eternal until our mortal body becomes immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds! You show you lack understanding of the spiritual eternal life we HAVE (not shall have) from the moment we believe being born again through God in us. Your eyes are fixed on physical things that belong to this world; therefore, you have not yet known the spiritual Kingdom of God that is not of this world but is of heaven, a spiritual realm we spiritually enter FOREVER, and can never be lost when we are born again.

John 10:28​

2 Timothy 1:12​

1 Thessalonians 5:24​

Hebrews 10:23​

Romans 8:38-39​

Ephesians 1:13-14​

Romans 11:29​

Philippians 1:6​

John 5:24​

1 John 5:11-12​

Romans 10:9-10​

Ephesians 2:8-9​

Hebrews 11:1​

Romans 8:16​

Galatians 4:6​

1 John 3:24​

Ephesians 4:30​

1 John 5:13​

2 Corinthians 5:1​

James 1:6​

Luke 12:32​

Titus 3:5​

2 Timothy 1:9​

Romans 5:1-2​

Romans 3:23-24​

John 1:16​

1 Peter 1:3-4

John 3:16​

John 14:2-3​

Christ kept His promises to whosoever believes in Him! After leaving this world, He came again for all who believe through sending His Spirit to be in us. That through His Spirit the life we have when we are born again shall never end because that spiritual life is ETERNAL!

You keep showing your ignorance brought about through your faith in false theology brought about through an inability to distinguish between (the breath of) eternal life and being alive.

Greek Septuagint translation of Genesis 2:7:

καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

The words in English:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

Life [zoe]: and breathed (spirit) into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life [zoe];

Living | Alive [zao]: and man became a living [zao] soul."

It's you who has changed the words:

1 John 5:11-12​

“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.” – 1 John 5:11-12

to:

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in ourselves. Because we have eternal life in ourselves, we have life.

 

[Zao is life]

Sorry, but I'm done with the parroting! Have a nice day!

Run away when you know you have no reply to biblical truth and facts. It's telling. You need repetition because your ears can't hear biblical truth.

 

[Zao is life]

Have you truly been born again David?

@Davidpt Whenever someone asks someone like yourself a question like that it always places a question mark over whether he has what he's implying you do not have - by asking you that question.

It's very telling.

 

[rwb]

@Davidpt Whenever someone asks someone like yourself a question like that it always places a question mark over whether he has what he's implying you do not have - by asking you that question.

It's very telling.

In ignorance you say such things! When I ask this question, it is out of concern for the man's soul! If I didn't care about the fate of his soul I wouldn't bother to ask!

 

[Zao is life]

This statement proves your total lack of understanding of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven! You do not believe the Word of Christ! Man is NOT eternally saved through a body of flesh, not even immortal body of flesh! You just don't understand the Kingdom of God man of faith inherits according to grace through faith is NOT a physical Kingdom! It is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that we spiritually know and enter only when we have been born again! Have you truly been born again David?

God has never needed to "build a spiritual kingdom of God in heaven".

Heaven has always been God's throne, God's house.

God created human beings to live in their created bodies on His created earth. When He created mankind, God never intended for human beings "to die and then go to heaven when we die". It is sin that causes death (James 1:15; 1 Corinthians 15:56), and "just as sin entered the world through one man - and death through sin - death spread to all people, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12).

It is for this reason that Christ came down, took on human flesh, died for our sins, and rose again from the dead, before ascending 40 days later back to heaven: so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive, not dead] (Romans 14:9).

Jesus rose again from the dead and is alive [zao] forevermore (immortal), possessing (everlasting) life [zoe] in Himself - decades after ascending into heaven bodily He appeared to the apostle John, and said,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that is alive / that liveth [zao], and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen; and I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18) .

God has never ever intended - because He has never needed - to "build a kingdom for Himself in heaven" as though the abode and house of God in heaven needed a kingdom to be built in it (because He needed a kingdom in His own house?).

Your theology is ridiculous.

 

[Zao is life]

In ignorance you say such things! When I ask this question, it is out of concern for the man's soul! If I didn't care about the fate of his soul I wouldn't bother to ask!

You have no need to be concerned for his soul.

Besides, you yourself said he cannot be snatched out of Christ's hand - so you're a liar.

Search your heart and ask God if you have any need to be concerned for your own soul.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is complete post #199, please highlight where you think I've said, I believe "the end of the age (at which point the age to come arrives) in Luke 20:34-36 referred to the end of the old covenant age when Jesus died and rose again?"

"The age to come came when Christ came in the Kingdom of God ushering in the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God. We have entered the Kingdom of God that now is spiritual when we are born again. That means we have spiritually, not physically entered the age that according to Christ was to come through His resurrection. The age to come that we spiritually enter when we are born again, shall be the immortal physical Kingdom on the New Earth when the seventh trumpet sounds. But until that day, we count ourselves as spirits of just men made perfectly the spiritual body spiritually dwelling living souls with Christ in the heavenly realm through the Spirit of Christ in us.

I already quoted this part. Look at what you said here. You indicated here that the age to come "was to come through His resurrection". Were you not saying that the age to come that Jesus talked about started with His resurrection? If so, that would mean that "this age" that He referenced would have ended at that point. Yet, you have acknowledged elsewhere that the end of the age will come when He returns. So, you need to make up your mind as to when the end of the age occurred or will occur.

I made no reference to this physical age now ended with the coming of Christ. The resurrection of Christ ushered in the age that He says is coming through His resurrection that is spiritual not physical, not of this world, but within believers.

And here you're saying it again. You are indicating here that you think that the age to come that He referenced in Luke 20:34-36 was ushered in by the resurrection of Christ. That would mean "this age" that He referenced came to an end upon His resurrection. It's amazing to me how I have to always spell everything out to you. It's as if you don't even understand what your own words imply.

What Jesus was talking about in Luke 20:34-36 related to this temporal age during which people get married and die and the eternal age to come that will be ushered in when He comes again to usher in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

 

[Davidpt]

God has never needed to "build a spiritual kingdom of God in heaven".

Heaven has always been God's throne, God's house.

God created human beings to live in their created bodies on His created earth. When He created mankind, God never intended for human beings "to die and then go to heaven when we die". It is sin that causes death (James 1:15; 1 Corinthians 15:56), and "just as sin entered the world through one man - and death through sin - death spread to all people, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12).

It is for this reason that Christ came down, took on human flesh, died for our sins, and rose again from the dead, before ascending 40 days later back to heaven: so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive, not dead] (Romans 14:9).

Jesus rose again from the dead and is alive [zao] forevermore (immortal), possessing (everlasting) life [zoe] in Himself - decades after ascending into heaven bodily He appeared to the apostle John, and said,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that is alive / that liveth [zao], and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen; and I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18) .

God has never ever intended - because He has never needed - to "build a kingdom for Himself in heaven" as though the abode and house of God in heaven needed a kingdom to be built in it (because He needed a kingdom in His own house?).

Your theology is ridiculous.

To add to that.

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ(Revelation 20:6) can not be divorced from those verse 4 are pertaining to. The ones verse 4 are pertaining to have already physically died at some point, which means they are currently in a disembodied state in heaven resting, awaiting their bodily resurrection. And that is it absurd, thus not Biblical since no passage in the Bible supports it, that being priests of God and of Christ, while still in a disembodied state in heaven, that this is somehow supposed to make sense. Being priests, in any sense, only makes sense in an earthly realm, not a heavenly realm. Might be why Revelation
5:10 says what it says--And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Except Amil adds to that verse by insisting one is reigning as kings and priests in heaven as well. But since when, in what universe, does we shall reign on the earth also mean we shall reign in heaven? Since when is earth another way of saying heaven?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you even believe in a bodily resurrection in the future when you deny some of the passages undeniably pertaining to exactly that?

Luke 20:34-38 is crystal clear. I guess to everyone except for maybe you, that a bodily resurrection is what is in view.

Granted, the majority is not always right. But in this case how can only one person alone be interpreting Luke 20:34-38 correctly, but everyone else isn't?

I tend to think the doctrine of Amil has maybe messed up your thinking.

LOL! You say such ignorant things. If his belief in Amil has caused his thinking to be messed up then why do Amils like me and many others disagree with him about this? Why isn't Amil causing us to interpret Luke 20:34-38 the way he does if Amil is causing him to interpret it the way he does? Ridiculous! When will you ever get serious and stop playing these ridiculous games that you play on this forum?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To add to that.

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ(Revelation 20:6) can not be divorced from those verse 4 are pertaining to. The ones verse 4 are pertaining to have already physically died at some point, which means they are currently in a disembodied state in heaven resting, awaiting their bodily resurrection. And that is it absurd, thus not Biblical since no passage in the Bible supports it, that being priests of God and of Christ, while still in a disembodied state in heaven, that this is somehow supposed to make sense.

Do you acknowledge that believers are priests of God and of Christ right now, as passages like 1 Peter 2:5-9 and Revelation 1:5-6 indicate? If so, what do you think it means to be a priest of God and of Christ? What does it entail? And why would someone no longer be a priest of God and of Christ after physical death when their soul and spirit goes to be with Jesus in heaven?

Being priests, in any sense, only makes sense in an earthly realm, not a heavenly realm. Might be why Revelation
5:10 says what it says--And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Except Amil adds to that verse by insisting one is reigning as kings and priests in heaven as well. But since when, in what universe, does we shall reign on the earth also mean we shall reign in heaven? Since when is earth another way of saying heaven?

Why do you say all these things without even indicating what you think it means for believers to be priests? Tell us what you think that means and why it can't be the case for the dead in Christ who are in heaven now.

You obviously believe that the dead in Christ are just resting and doing literally nothing in heaven right now. Your belief is very similar to soul sleep. Let's say you were correct and they are just resting in heaven and doing literally nothing. Tell me, when believers are resting or sleeping during this lifetime, are they not priests of God and of Christ while resting or sleeping? Let's say a believer gets in a bad car accident and is relegated to a hospital bed and can do nothing. Does that mean that person is not a priest of God and of Christ and are no longer part of the royal priesthood that scripture says believers are part of?

 

[Zao is life]

To add to that.

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ(Revelation 20:6) can not be divorced from those verse 4 are pertaining to. The ones verse 4 are pertaining to have already physically died at some point, which means they are currently in a disembodied state in heaven resting, awaiting their bodily resurrection. And that is it absurd, thus not Biblical since no passage in the Bible supports it, that being priests of God and of Christ, while still in a disembodied state in heaven, that this is somehow supposed to make sense. Being priests, in any sense, only makes sense in an earthly realm, not a heavenly realm. Might be why Revelation
5:10 says what it says--And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Except Amil adds to that verse by insisting one is reigning as kings and priests in heaven as well. But since when, in what universe, does we shall reign on the earth also mean we shall reign in heaven? Since when is earth another way of saying heaven?

As an English speaker I have never believed that the words "we shall reign", "they shall reign" and "He shall reign" (Revelation 11:15) in any way excludes a future connotation

hast made - past tense - us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign - future tense - on the earth.

- but we will leave them to roll in their fallacies. They love rolling.

 

[rwb]

God has never ever intended to "build a kingdom for Himself in heaven" as though the abode and house of God in heaven needed a kingdom to be built in it (because He needed a kingdom in His own house?).

Christ very plainly says, "Ye must be born again"! Then He explains those who are born again both know (see) and ENTER the Kingdom of God, and that until a man has been born again, they will neither know (see) nor ENTER the Kingdom of God, because the Kingdom of God is NOT of this world, cannot be physically seen and is within you. Because HIs Kingdom NOW in this age is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. How can man who has been born again know and ENTER the Kingdom of God in heaven, since it is not through our flesh? Where is the Kingdom of God we both know and ENTER when we are born again since it is not of this world and is within believers? Why do we read that the bride of Christ prepared for her husband comes down from heaven as the holy city new Jerusalem if there is no Kingdom of God in heaven? If the Kingdom of God in heaven is not being built, why does Christ tell us the Kingdom of heaven is at hand, and that we should seek to enter therein? And that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are seated in the Kingdom of God in heaven? Why are the disciples given the keys to the Kingdom of heaven for those bound on earth but loosed in heaven?

The Kingdom of God in heaven is being built for those who have been born again through the Spirit of Christ within us. When the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete when the last to be eternally saved has through spirit entered there through the power of God in us, then our body of flesh shall be raised immortal, not eternal because eternal life NOW is spiritually in heaven and we will then be in the new earth that we, who possess eternal spiritual life, shall have forever through physical IMMORTAL & INCORRUPTIBLE body as God in the beginning created us to be.