WHAT IS PARADISE?

[Doug]

[Luke 23:42 KJV] "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
[Luke 23:43 KJV] "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."..........Paradise is not heaven. We can find what is meant by being in paradise in the passage in Luke........[Luke 16:22 KJV] "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"
[Luke 16:23 KJV] "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
[Luke 16:26 KJV] "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence."..........This isn't a parable, it isn't called a parable. This account describes paradise as Abraham's bosom. Hell is a separate compartment, in which in torment, they can see those in paradise/Abraham's bosom.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Doug,

This isn't a parable

Yes, it is a parable. The Kingdom of God is clearly defined in such passages as Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21 and many other passages. The Kingdom of God will be when Jesus returns and sits upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years over a converted remnant of natural Israel, and with the nations subjected and learning the ways of god.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

Greetings Doug,

Yes, it is a parable. The Kingdom of God is clearly defined in such passages as Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21 and many other passages. The Kingdom of God will be when Jesus returns and sits upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years over a converted remnant of natural Israel, and with the nations subjected and learning the ways of god.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus says when it's a parable................[Matthew 13:24 KJV] "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Jesus says when it's a parable

Jesus' answer to the thief on the Cross was about when Jesus would return tp establish his kingdom and raise the dead. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus uses the name Lazarus, and Jesus was soon going to raise Lazarus from the dead. The warning to the Pharisees at the end of the Parable speaks of the resurrection of the dead, not immortal souls. The raising of Lazarus precipitated Caiaphas'decision to kill Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

Jesus' answer to the thief on the Cross was about when Jesus would return tp establish his kingdom and raise the dead.

I dont think so Jesus said TODAY he would be with him in paradise

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

I dont think so Jesus said TODAY he would be with him in paradise

That would certainly alter the definition of Paradise, but to your understanding, where is Abraham's bosom? Is the thief still there? Is Jesus still there? Looking again at the full reference:
Luke 23:39–43 (KJV): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief asked to be remembered when Jesus comes in His Kingdom. This implies that he is asking for Jesus to show favour to him when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom upon the earth, and this would necessitate the resurrection of the thief. Rather than changing the subject, Jesus gives a direct answer, and at the same time gives an additional assurance. The following translation of verse 43 has been suggested:
verse 43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
The placing of the comma after the word To day, not before.
In other words, the thief would not have to wait for a final decision after his own resurrection, but Jesus immediately reassures him that he will be granted a place in Paradise, the restored Garden of Eden upon the earth, when Jesus returns to refresh and restore all things upon the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

but to your understanding, where is Abraham's bosom? Is the thief still there? Is Jesus still there? Looking again at the full reference:

Paradise is in the heart of the earth...................[Matthew 12:40 KJV] "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Is the thief still there? I dont know for sure as there is no scripture that says anything about that. I know that the body of Christ church goes to heaven. The old testament saints and the saints that believed on Jesus during his earthly ministry and Acts are never said to go to heaven when they die. I can only assume the thief and those saints are in Abraham's bosom, but my opinion means little....................[John 5:28 KJV] "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"
[John 5:29 KJV] "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
[Daniel 12:2 KJV] "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt."...............These verses would make one conclude that these saints would just be sleeping in the grave until the resurrection. This verse offers a difference from thinking the dead will just be in the graves...........................[Matthew 27:52 KJV] "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"........................this verse says only their bodies were in the graves. The oter thing is both the beggar and the thief were not just in the grave, but they were in Abraham's bosom.

Christ is now in heaven.............[Ephesians 1:20 KJV] "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],"

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Paradise is in the heart of the earth...................[Matthew 12:40 KJV] "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be , more like the pagan hell.three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Your view of the heart of the earth does not fit reality, as the centre of the earth is hot and burning. The heart of the earth was the tomb, where Jesus was dead for three days and nights. Does not sound like Paradise to me.

....................[John 5:28 KJV] "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"
[John 5:29 KJV] "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
[Daniel 12:2 KJV] "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt."...............These verses would make one conclude that these saints would just be sleeping in the grave until the resurrection.

Yes, I agree that the faithful are asleep in the dust of the earth. Like all of Adam's descendants they have partaken of the sentence of death placed upon Adam, but the faithful are asleep, awaiting the resurrection and the granting of eternal life when Jesus returns. There are no immortal souls.

I prefer the rendition of Luke 23:43 that I gave and this is also suggested by Ethelbert Bullinger in his Companion Bible.
Luke 23:39–43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

I prefer the Bible definition of Paradise, the restoration of the earth to the Garden of Eden. The word "Paradise" is evidently the Persian word for Garden.
Isaiah 35:1-2 (KJV): 1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Isaiah 51:3 (KJV): For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

Ezekiel 36:33-35 (KJV): 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

Your view of the heart of the earth does not fit reality, as the centre of the earth is hot and burning.

Please tell me what Jesus meant by the heart of the earth

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Doug,

Please tell me what Jesus meant by the heart of the earth

The tomb.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Doug]

Greetings again Doug,

The tomb.

Kind regards
Trevor

I can see why you think that. Why wouldn't he just say that? Why didnt he say in the grave as Isaiah said................[Isaiah 53:9 KJV] "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth."

 

[IndianaRob]

Greetings again Doug,

The tomb.

Kind regards
Trevor

Consider this TevorHL.
The Heart of the Earth:

• Physical location: Deep inside, molten core
• Biblical reference: Paradise/Abraham's Bosom is "in the heart of the earth"
• Paradox: It's a real place (center of earth) but not physically accessible to the living
• Nature: Hidden, beneath the surface, unseen but real

This Internet Forum:

• Physical location: Data on servers, appears on your computer screen
• Paradox: It's everywhere and nowhere simultaneously
• Nature: You can access it from the surface (your computer) but it doesn't exist in any single physical location
• It's real (people interact, communities exist) but not materially present in the traditional sense

The Point of the Analogy:​

Both realms are:

1. Real but non-physical - They exist but not in the way physical objects exist
2. Accessible yet unreachable - You can "enter" them (spiritually/digitally) but can't physically go there
3. Hidden beneath/beyond the surface - Not visible to normal perception
4. Paradoxical locations - They ARE somewhere (heart of earth/digital servers) and NOWHERE (can't point to them physically)

The deeper insight: Just as Paradise in the heart of the earth is a spiritual reality accessed through death/faith rather than physical travel, an internet forum is a digital reality accessed through technology rather than physical presence.

Paradise was the old heaven, the place believers went to when they died before Jesus was crucified. But those people aren't there anymore. When Christ rose from the dead and ascended, they went with Him. Now they're in the new heaven with Christ.

 

[Doug]

Paradise was the old heaven, the place believers went to when they died before Jesus was crucified. But those people aren't there anymore. When Christ rose from the dead and ascended, they went with Him. Now they're in the new heaven with Christ.

I have another view
[Psalm 68:18 KJV] "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them]."
[Ephesians 4:8 KJV] "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."........It is said that this verse shows that those in Abraham's bosom were taken to heaven. I think it is saying when Jesus ascended he led the captivity of the devil captive. The devil has taken us into captivity............[2 Timothy 2:26 KJV] "And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.".........I don't see this as saying Christ emptied Abraham's bosom upon his ascension.

 

[IndianaRob]

I have another view
[Psalm 68:18 KJV] "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them]."
[Ephesians 4:8 KJV] "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."........It is said that this verse shows that those in Abraham's bosom were taken to heaven. I think it is saying when Jesus ascended he led the captivity of the devil captive. The devil has taken us into captivity............[2 Timothy 2:26 KJV] "And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.".........I don't see this as saying Christ emptied Abraham's bosom upon his ascension.

What is the only group of people in the Bible referred to as “the captivity”?

 

[Doug]

What is the only group of people in the Bible referred to as “the captivity”?

Dont know, want to tell me

 

[IndianaRob]

Dont know, want to tell me

The captivity are the Old Testament believers that were carried away to another land as prisoners while God poured out his wrath on the wicked that were in Israel.

Jeremiah 27:8-17 and also Jeremiah 38:2 (KJV): "He that remaineth in this city shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth forth to the Chaldeans shall live; for he shall have his life for a prey, and shall live."

God told them through Jeremiah to submit to Nebuchadnezzar and go into captivity. Those who surrendered to Babylon would live. Those who resisted and stayed in Jerusalem would die by sword, famine, and pestilence.

So the captivity was actually God's means of preserving them. Going into captivity was how they survived. Resisting it meant death.

The point is that “the captivity” in the Bible only refers to Old Testament believers.

 

[Doug]

The captivity are the Old Testament believers that were carried away to another land as prisoners while God poured out his wrath on the wicked that were in Israel.

Jeremiah 27:8-17 and also Jeremiah 38:2 (KJV): "He that remaineth in this city shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth forth to the Chaldeans shall live; for he shall have his life for a prey, and shall live."

God told them through Jeremiah to submit to Nebuchadnezzar and go into captivity. Those who surrendered to Babylon would live. Those who resisted and stayed in Jerusalem would die by sword, famine, and pestilence.

So the captivity was actually God's means of preserving them. Going into captivity was how they survived. Resisting it meant death.

The point is that “the captivity” in the Bible only refers to Old Testament believers.

What do you think about this verse..............[2 Timothy 2:26 KJV] "And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."............isnt taken captive captivity?

 

[IndianaRob]

What do you think about this verse..............[2 Timothy 2:26 KJV] "And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."............isnt taken captive captivity?

There's a distinction between being "taken captive" (a verb — something happening to someone) and "the captivity" (a noun — a specific group of people).

The Bible uses "the captivity" as a title, a designation for a specific people — the Jewish exiles. It's a proper identification. When you see "the captivity" in the Old Testament, it's referring to that group.

2 Timothy 2:26 describes individuals being taken captive by the devil — that's an action, a condition. Those people are never called "the captivity" anywhere in Scripture. They're people in bondage, but that's not the same thing.

So Ephesians 4:8 saying "he led captivity captive" is talking about "the captivity" — that specific group — being led as Christ's prisoners. It's not a general statement about anyone who was ever held captive by anyone. It's about the captivity.

 

[Doug]

There's a distinction between being "taken captive" (a verb — something happening to someone) and "the captivity" (a noun — a specific group of people).

The Bible uses "the captivity" as a title, a designation for a specific people — the Jewish exiles. It's a proper identification. When you see "the captivity" in the Old Testament, it's referring to that group.

2 Timothy 2:26 describes individuals being taken captive by the devil — that's an action, a condition. Those people are never called "the captivity" anywhere in Scripture. They're people in bondage, but that's not the same thing.

So Ephesians 4:8 saying "he led captivity captive" is talking about "the captivity" — that specific group — being led as Christ's prisoners. It's not a general statement about anyone who was ever held captive by anyone. It's about the captivity.

I dont know why you are focused on THE captivity when this phrase isnt found. The verse says "thou hast led captivity captive:". I never used the term either

 

[amigo de christo]

Paradise is the home this sheep awaits at the end of my faith .
PS , all deniers that JESUS is the CHRIST , who beleive not the testimony GOD all mighty DID testify of the son , THUS call GOD a liar
WELL paradise awaits no such ones . NOR t hose who preached that ecumenical interfaith lie and were co helpers only to a lie .
But yes , paradise has been prepared for the true sheep whose faith was and IS in JESUS THE CHRIST . now sing that song .