Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[rwb]

Why do you continue to duck around my questions? What is more, I have already addressed and rebutted your argument above and you have already avoided my rebuttal.

Your questions have been repeatedly answered, but since you don't like the answers, you give no biblical rebuttal and instead misquote, or take what is said out of context to make it appear I don't believe in spirits of God called angels or spirits of Satan called demons.

The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believe that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.

This is the problem with erroneous doctrines that continue to be perpetuated throughout churches. Instead of seeking understanding regarding Satan and his demonic messengers from the Word of God, you and many like you rely on what other theologians believe, because they too rely on the doctrines of other theologians/commentaries instead of digging deep into what God says regarding spirit messengers throughout Scripture.

You have maligned and misquoted, taking out of context many replies here rather than showing from the Word of God how what I've actually stated is not biblical. You do this, I believe, because you cannot accept your erroneous understanding of Satan who was from the very beginning of creation called a murderer and liar. Unless you can prove the theologians, you're rely on for understanding of Satan can be proven from the Word of God, that Satan rebelled and fell before creation and was once the leader of the angelic host in heaven, your doctrine remains speculation without biblical merit.

The question regarding the existence of Satan I believe stems from these verses:

Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Darkness throughout the Bible is used metaphorically as misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness. Why/when did God create the darkness? Because it seems to already exist when God formed the light. Why does God tell us darkness and evil are created by Him?

If the darkness existed at the time God formed the light, is the darkness metaphorically spirit of darkness called Satan? I've come to believe it is, and the reason God did not conquer or destroy it but only invaded the darkness by light is because man was not created with knowledge of good or evil. These cannot be fully known by mankind without experiencing them. Therefore, the evil spirit enticed the woman in the form of a serpent so that man would not only come to know how sin and death through sin if left undefeated would utterly destroy all that God created "very good." Darkness and evil have been and are used by God to drive man to the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. For man to be fully free they had to know both good as well as evil, otherwise they would be without understanding of eternal life from God as well as condemnation and eternal death.

 

[rwb]

I agree. But they are not humans. They are not the human spirit. They can influence humans. The demonic spirits can control the wicked and resist the righteous. They can enter and leave humans. They can also enter into animals. These are not human spirits, they are distinct from humans. They are angelic spirits that are either elect or evil angels.

You don't believe there are human MESSENGERS of God and Satan? Why does Christ speak of fallen mankind as being of their father the devil if natural human spirit is not spiritually under the power and influence of Satan? Only by having the Spirit of Christ within us, can man fully resist the influence of the spirit of evil upon our hearts and minds. The natural spirit that gives man natural life has become the spirit of Satan because his is the only influence upon mankind. And they will die in their sins if they have not the Spirit of Christ birthing them again from above.

Matthew 12:34 (KJV) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:35 (KJV) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Spirit angels of God are NOT evil angels, nor have they ever been. Evil SPIRITS are of Satan, not of God. Angels of God are sent to be ministering spirits for the heirs of salvation. Demonic spirits come to natural man from the father of lies, the murderer from the beginning, called Satan. When fallen man gives themselves over to the murderer and father of lies, they are of their father spiritually evil and destined to eternal death.

 

[rwb]

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This was before the first resurrection. Yet Christ acknowledges the location of His angels as "in heaven." Were the elect in heaven before the first resurrection?

Christ is speaking of His resurrection that had not yet come, but would come to inaugurate the eternal age His resurrection ushered in. When man has part in Christ's resurrected life through His Spirit (they are born again) in them they have spiritually entered into the age of eternity and possess ETERNAL spiritual life that came through Christ. It is angels of God; spirit beings sent to minister to heirs of salvation that are in heaven. And when man enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ in them, we are spiritually with the angels of God because we have gone from being natural fallen man to supernaturally spiritual man. And when believers physically die, our position in heaven will not change but will simply be spiritual body as living souls in heaven. Believers are already given eternal life through Christ's Spirit and with blessed assurance we shall have immortal & incorruptible physical life when Christ comes again.

 

[WPM]

Your questions have been repeatedly answered, but since you don't like the answers, you give no biblical rebuttal and instead misquote, or take what is said out of context to make it appear I don't believe in spirits of God called angels or spirits of Satan called demons.



This is the problem with erroneous doctrines that continue to be perpetuated throughout churches. Instead of seeking understanding regarding Satan and his demonic messengers from the Word of God, you and many like you rely on what other theologians believe, because they too rely on the doctrines of other theologians/commentaries instead of digging deep into what God says regarding spirit messengers throughout Scripture.

You have maligned and misquoted, taking out of context many replies here rather than showing from the Word of God how what I've actually stated is not biblical. You do this, I believe, because you cannot accept your erroneous understanding of Satan who was from the very beginning of creation called a murderer and liar. Unless you can prove the theologians, you're rely on for understanding of Satan can be proven from the Word of God, that Satan rebelled and fell before creation and was once the leader of the angelic host in heaven, your doctrine remains speculation without biblical merit.

The question regarding the existence of Satan I believe stems from these verses:

Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Darkness throughout the Bible is used metaphorically as misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness. Why/when did God create the darkness? Because it seems to already exist when God formed the light. Why does God tell us darkness and evil are created by Him?

If the darkness existed at the time God formed the light, is the darkness metaphorically spirit of darkness called Satan? I've come to believe it is, and the reason God did not conquer or destroy it but only invaded the darkness by light is because man was not created with knowledge of good or evil. These cannot be fully known by mankind without experiencing them. Therefore, the evil spirit enticed the woman in the form of a serpent so that man would not only come to know how sin and death through sin if left undefeated would utterly destroy all that God created "very good." Darkness and evil have been and are used by God to drive man to the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. For man to be fully free they had to know both good as well as evil, otherwise they would be without understanding of eternal life from God as well as condemnation and eternal death.

Stop avoiding. Address what I wrote.

 

[rwb]

Where did they come from? Where they here before man?

John 1:3 (KJV) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Ephesians 3:9-12 (KJV) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

To my knowledge Scripture does not specifically tell us when God created the invisible spiritual beings called angels and demons???

 

[WPM]

Christ is speaking of His resurrection that had not yet come, but would come to inaugurate the eternal age His resurrection ushered in. When man has part in Christ's resurrected life through His Spirit (they are born again) in them they have spiritually entered into the age of eternity and possess ETERNAL spiritual life that came through Christ. It is angels of God; spirit beings sent to minister to heirs of salvation that are in heaven. And when man enters into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ in them, we are spiritually with the angels of God because we have gone from being natural fallen man to supernaturally spiritual man. And when believers physically die, our position in heaven will not change but will simply be spiritual body as living souls in heaven. Believers are already given eternal life through Christ's Spirit and with blessed assurance we shall have immortal & incorruptible physical life when Christ comes again.

• Are angels human spirits?
• Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

 

[WPM]

John 1:3 (KJV) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Ephesians 3:9-12 (KJV) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

To my knowledge Scripture does not specifically tell us when God created the invisible spiritual beings called angels and demons???

• Where angels here before man?

 

[rwb]

When I was a child, I saw a small snake walking on the water surface. Then the adults thought the snake was going to bite me, and as a result, it was killed. I felt that the snake seemed to be trying to prove something, to dispel the stigma attached to them. Don't you think that all the snakes in this world are devils and Satan?

I believe evil spiritual being used the serpent created by God as a way to deceive man at the beginning of creation. There are even some scientific studies suggesting the serpent may have been created to stand upon two feet like humans. I honestly have not studied why some would believe this and really don't believe it matters. I think it's because God used the serpent to test humans in the beginning that many believe that snakes are devils and Satan???

 

[rwb]

• Where angels here before man?

To my knowledge Scripture does not specifically tell us when God created the invisible spiritual beings called angels and demons???

 

[WPM]

You don't believe there are human MESSENGERS of God and Satan? Why does Christ speak of fallen mankind as being of their father the devil if natural human spirit is not spiritually under the power and influence of Satan? Only by having the Spirit of Christ within us, can man fully resist the influence of the spirit of evil upon our hearts and minds. The natural spirit that gives man natural life has become the spirit of Satan because his is the only influence upon mankind. And they will die in their sins if they have not the Spirit of Christ birthing them again from above.

Matthew 12:34 (KJV) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:35 (KJV) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Spirit angels of God are NOT evil angels, nor have they ever been. Evil SPIRITS are of Satan, not of God. Angels of God are sent to be ministering spirits for the heirs of salvation. Demonic spirits come to natural man from the father of lies, the murderer from the beginning, called Satan. When fallen man gives themselves over to the murderer and father of lies, they are of their father spiritually evil and destined to eternal death.

Stop twisting what i wrote. There are both angels and humans that are messengers but angels are not humans. Scripture distinguishes between both.

1Co 4:9 for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Jesus became man not an angel. Scripture is careful at distinguishing between the two.

Heb 2:6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man...
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[WPM]

To my knowledge Scripture does not specifically tell us when God created the invisible spiritual beings called angels and demons???

• Are angels human spirits?
• Where angels here before man?
• Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

 

[rwb]

Stop twisting what i wrote. There are both angels and humans that are messengers but angels are not humans. Scripture distinguishes between both.

Honestly Paul, you accuse me of twisting what you wrote at the same time you imply that I believe angels are humans. I've never believed angels are humans. I believe humans indwelt with the Spirit of Christ are MESSENGERS of God, just as John the Baptist is said to be. The translators realized that John being human was not a spirit angel of God. So they rightly translated the Greek word angelos MESSENGER and not angel. If the translators had been consistent throughout translating angelos messenger of God then the student of the Word would be able to discern whether the messenger of God is spirit being or human being.

Matthew 11:10 (KJV) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [angelos] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Jesus became man not an angel. Scripture is careful at distinguishing between the two.

Jesus was fully human of flesh & bone, while also remaining fully God, Who is Spirit, alive through the Spirit of God in Him.

John 4:24 (KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 1:20 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

For this reason Christ is through His Spirit is the firstfruits both spiritually and physically of those who partake of His resurrection life by being born again of His Spirit.

 

[rwb]

• Are angels human spirits?
• Where angels here before man?
• Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

Already answered these questions ad nauseum!

 

[WPM]

Already answered these questions ad nauseum!

Not true. You have repeatedly avoided these. Your presentations are all over the place. One post contradicts another. When someone is promoting extra-biblical error they avoid the simple direct questions. They have to. They have something to hide. They also run when challenged. You do that often.

 

[WPM]

Honestly Paul, you accuse me of twisting what you wrote at the same time you imply that I believe angels are humans. I've never believed angels are humans. I believe humans indwelt with the Spirit of Christ are MESSENGERS of God, just as John the Baptist is said to be. The translators realized that John being human was not a spirit angel of God. So they rightly translated the Greek word angelos MESSENGER and not angel. If the translators had been consistent throughout translating angelos messenger of God then the student of the Word would be able to discern whether the messenger of God is spirit being or human being.

Matthew 11:10 (KJV) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [angelos] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.



Jesus was fully human of flesh & bone, while also remaining fully God, Who is Spirit, alive through the Spirit of God in Him.

John 4:24 (KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 1:20 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

For this reason Christ is through His Spirit is the firstfruits both spiritually and physically of those who partake of His resurrection life by being born again of His Spirit.

Address the issues and stop ducking and diving around them.

Do elect angels possess believers or are they distinct entities that function external to them?

 

[WPM]

Already answered these questions ad nauseum!

• Are angels human spirits?
• Where angels here before man?
• Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

 

[WPM]

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!

1. Was the king of Tyrus an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16)?
2. Was he at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13)?
3. Did he protect "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14)?
4. Was he created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15)?
5. Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?

 

[rwb]

Address the issues and stop ducking and diving around them.

Do elect angels possess believers or are they distinct entities that function external to them?

What/who are elect angels?

 

[rwb]

• Are angels human spirits?
• Where angels here before man?
• Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!

 

[rwb]

• Are angels human spirits?
• Where angels here before man?
• Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!