Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?

[brightfame52]

Your advocating Christian universalism.
That's heresy.

False accusation, to win a argument

 

[Button]

False accusation, to win a argument

What argument?
Advocating that everyone on earth is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus is Christian Universalism.

You don't know what CU is. I suggest you look I up so to know what is being discussed. It's heresy.

 

[brightfame52]

What argument?
Advocating that everyone on earth is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus is Christian Universalism.

You don't know what CU is. I suggest you look I up so to know what is being discussed. It's heresy.

The argument that prompted you to say Im advocating universalism. I havent said a word about universalism, thats your false accusation pal

 

[Button]

The argument that prompted you to say Im advocating universalism. I havent said a word about universalism, thats your false accusation pal

You don't know what Christian Universalism is.

What you posted is an example of Christian Universalism.

You're ignorant. Don't get mad. Get educated.

 

[rockytopva]

One Church... Millions of congregations...

1. Ephesus - Messianic Jewish Church
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

Seven candlesticks - Seven generalized congregation - All unique - And Christ walking in the midst
Seven seals - Those names written in the Lambs Book of Life
Seven stars - Those messengers to the congregations - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 1 - King James Version

 

[brightfame52]

You don't know what Christian Universalism is.

Dude Im not interested in that. If thats what you want to discuss, find someone else to discuss it with

What you posted is an example of Christian Universalism.

False accusation

You're ignorant. Don't get mad. Get educated.

Okay Ill be ignorant, now scram

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes we agree that God has a chosen people...

Right...

, but what we dont agree on is his purpose.

Hmmm... well you can tell me what you think His purpose is, I'm sure. What I will say is that His one chief purpose is to glorify Himself. Now, He has many purposes for many things, but all fall under this... blanket, I guess: God's chief end is to glorify Himself. And as Paul says in Ephesians 1...

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him."

Throughout Romans 9-11 you can read where Paul is sorrowful for his kinsman.

Right, absolutely, because, as he said in Romans 9:6-8, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring... it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God"... not all his kinsmen are saved and will never be.

He wants his kinsman to be saved (elect) but he knows that only a remnant will be chosen.

Right.

The rest, however, shall be saved which I've already gone through in my last post.

The ones who are elect, sure. I thought you were saying all ethnic Jews would be saved. If not, good. I mean I would certainly like for all of them to be saved too, even all people, but... that's not God's plan.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Beebster]

Hello PinSeeker.

There are many things here in these posts I'd like to discuss with you however I want to start with something you said here:

I mean I would certainly like for all of them to be saved too, even all people, but... that's not God's plan.

Grace and peace to you.

I hear that, or something similar to that, every once in a while. The only thing I can deduce from those types of statements is that the person is willfully lying or that they truly are sincere. In your case I'll opt to think you're sincere.

Too often Christians take one verse and build or cling to a certain doctrine (whatever that doctrine may be).

But is that how we are to approach, preach and teach the Word of God?

No, what does the Word of God tell us:

The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever. (Psa 119:160)

So, we are not to take one verse and create false doctrine and before I'm accused of doing such a thing here is a second witness:

knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. (2 Pet 1:20)

What is it we learn in the law and then straight Jesus Christ's mouth:

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the MOUTH of two witnesses, or at the MOUTH of three witnesses, shall the matter be established (Deut 19:15)

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the MOUTH of two or three witnesses EVERY WORD may be established. (Mat 18:16)

What is it Christ says about his words:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Yes, they are spiritual, not carnal.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (Eph 6:17)

It is the sum of those spiritual words that are truth. They are not to be left in the past and only understood in context.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mat 24:35)

-my words shall not pass away. (Mar 13:31)

-my words shall not pass away. (Luke 21:33)

Why does all this matter?
Well because all of us who are called take spiritual truth and try to explain them using our carnal thought process. We turn spiritual things into physical things.
For instance you said in an earlier post of Isa 26:9:

"This is a plea on the part of Isaiah-"

Well, does that make it any less true?
Is it only true in that context?
Is it not the Word of God?
Do those words pass away?
Are those words not spiritual?

Please understand I'm not dogging on you, but trying to show you that it is all the Word of God..
Understanding context certainly is a good thing though leaving things in context is flawed and detrimental to understanding.

Continued in next post-

 

[Beebster]

-Continued from post 468

Throughout the thread "What's more important than escaping ETERNAL Hell Fire?" I cited witness upon witness to show that all will be saved:

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, SPECIALLY of those that believe.
These things COMMAND and TEACH. (1 Tim 4:10-11)

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (John 12:47)

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE. (1 Cor 3:15)

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col 1:20)

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Rom 14:11)

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

And is that the sum? Not even close.

Witness after witness shows that all shall be saved, yet time after time Christians claim otherwise.

Interestingly enough, I could cite two or three witnesses that prove Christ is the Savior of the World and then simply state, in one sentence, that he is and the backlash and prosecution will begin.

Oddly enough my one sentence will sometimes get a reply full of paragraphs in an effort to prove the verses themselves false in an effort to show that I'm in error.

Others will cite one seemingly contradictory verse to those I provide then tell me, in a not so polite way, to go read my Bible.

I want to show you an example of this, not to embarass anyone but to show you just how embedded these false doctrines become.

I posted this in agreement and added scripture to see if the poster was faithful to his word-

WE MUST GET THEM BACK to the BIBLE NOW . GET THEM back to preaching JESUS NOW .

Amen.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12;32)

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

And all things HE and later the apostels did teach NOW .

Hallelujah.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15:21-22)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

That was it. I posted two words and scripture.

And this was his reply:

I had a strong hunch . you in dire and deadly grave danger .
Only an inclusivian universalist would have ducked the question
and brought verses Taken out of text to imply that which is of anti christ .
This is far more dangerous than you think .
but this is what men do , they twist to fit what they d esire to believe .
Deadly dangerous . And if my concern was not for your good i would not have warned you so .
but this is the lie that many will buy and more soon will .
No marvel for even pe ter himself had warned
how men took things out of text and done so unto their own destruction .
Your blood be upon you because i failed not to warn you , or others .
So they and your blood is not on me .

So he "had a strong hunch" that I was a universalist not by the two words I said to him but by comprehending the truth in those four verses.

He condemned himself.

I urge you to fast from man made dontrines:

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her PLAGUES. (Rev 18:4)

Become as a child:

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. (Luk_18:17)

If you can become childlike, as someone who knows very little, then perhaps you can reapproach with the truth that God will save his whole creation; from there maybe striving to understand just how he will do that which is his ultimate glory.

I put this effort into this post again in the hope that you are true to your word when you say:

PinSeeker said:
I mean I would certainly like for all of them to be saved too, even all people, but... that's not God's plan.

If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. (Job 9:20)

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Mat 12:36)

Peace.

 

[PinSeeker]

There are many things here in these posts I'd like to discuss with you

That would be fine; happy to discuss…

however…

Ah, yes, the dreaded “however”… <smile>

And is that the sum? Not even close.

Witness after witness shows that all shall be saved…

I could cite two or three witnesses that prove Christ is the Savior of the world…

I urge you to fast from man made dontrines…

Beebster, I appreciate your thoughts and even much more so the tone of this post… And I apologize that you have had to endure such personal, belittling comments from other posters… supposed Christians… unfortunately that is very prevalent on these forums.

Now, you can agree with me or not, here, for sure, but to all this I will say… well a few things:

1. Jesus is indeed the Savior of the world and the propitiation for the sins of all in this sense, that His work on the cross is enough for, sufficient for, everyone to be saved, and also that no one is… ineligible. But, at the same time, it is true that His work on the cross will only be effectual for some ~ His sheep, the ones who are given to Him by the Father, of whom He will lose not one (John 10).
2. You might point out the Scriptures that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, which of course, is true. But Scripture is clear in many places than not all will call on the name of the Lord. Consider Joel 2:32, the Scripture to which Paul is directly referring when he says that in Romans 10:17… “…it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.” It shouldn’t take much more than a glance to discern that the ones who will call upon the Lord are the ones the Lord calls. the opposite is also true: if one does not call on the name of the Lord, he or she will not be saved. But again, the ones who will call on the name of the Lord will be saved, but they will only do so if the Lord calls them.
3. Back to Romans 8… Paul talks specifically about the Lord’s call to be His, and His call will inevitably give them salvation in Christ and will with absolute certainty ultimately result in their glorification. He even speaks of it as if it is all past tense and already a reality: “And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.” That’s great, of course, but what can surely be seen in this is that the ‘those’ in Paul’s sentence there is a limited group, and not everyone… Paul clearly indicates there are other outside the ‘those’ who are not called by the Lord and will not be.
4. Finally, we can see, without a doubt, that many will be judged… negatively… and will not enter into the New Heaven and New Earth: Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:11-15
5. And Jesus Himself says, in John 5:28-29, “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

Again, certainly, think as you will. But not all will be saved. I think most everyone posting on the various forums on this website would agree with that. It’s disconcerting certainly, but true nonetheless… and certainly not “false doctrine.” Universalism is false doctrine, though. However, if you are a Universalist, though, that does not make you “not a Christian,” nor does it make you “less a Christian” than any other Christian. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grumix8]

Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

Of the elect

 

[Episkopos]

Of the elect

...yes, and also of the elect.

 

[brightfame52]

...yes, and also of the elect.

Salvation is exclusively for the elect 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation is exclusively for the elect 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

You are missing the part where the elect are saved for glory. Do you think that the sermon on the mount only lasted for a year or so so that once Jesus was crucified and resurrected... the meek no longer inherit the earth?

Saints are saved for glory. But God's mercy extends to those who DO what is right in God's eyes...or who God pities. And the saints will rule over them. That's the glory of the saints.

Instead of taking God's place and consigning to hell those whom God will save...just let God do the judging. Remember that we are not to judge, unless we wish to explain why we continually condemn the righteous and justify the wicked...because they sound like us. Because they accept man-made propositions that sound religious.

No, God will have mercy on whom He wills. He does not tell people who that is in advance.

Show a little wisdom, humility and fear of the Lord. Buck the trend...

 

[brightfame52]

You are missing the part where the elect are saved for glory.

No I didnt miss that. The elect are them God made exclusively for Glory, theyre the elect vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

 

[Episkopos]

No I didnt miss that. The elect are them God made exclusively for Glory, theyre the elect vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

No, God will have mercy on whom He wills. He does not tell people who that is in advance.

Show a little wisdom, humility and fear of the Lord. Buck the trend...


...or not.

 

[brightfame52]

No, God will have mercy on whom He wills.

The elect

 

[Doug]

As humans, we seem to find a proper balance to be something that escapes us, so often, preferring a more radical and simplistic view to one that requires nuance and a deeper understanding of the matter. Is salvation inclusive or exclusive? What if it's both!

[2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV] "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."................Christ was reconciling the world to himself, but his redemption must be believed.

 

[brightfame52]

[2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV] "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."................Christ was reconciling the world to himself, but his redemption must be believed.

Do you believe the world in 2 Cor 5:19 the reconciled world, doesnt have any sin imputed to it ? Do you preach that as Paul is doing ?