Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[Rockerduck]

Not “hell”….”Gehenna”. A place of no return….not a place of eternal conscious torment.

Again fear that God who can terminate your existence….he has no need or desire to send anyone to an eternal torture chamber.

The devil wants you the believe that. I have seen hell.

 

[HealthyShape]

What you described was not a gift, it was a rescue operation.
It's illogical to call that a gift.

Why is it illogical to call salvation a gift?

On the contrary.
There is value in the here and now for a renewed relationship with Christ.
In the end everyone will be saved, but salvation is for NOW.

This may be some kind of your private religion, but this is not the teaching of the apostolic Church. Salvation is for eternity and universalism is a very rare idea outside of the Christian mainstream, so not something to claim with such certainty.

 

[ProDeo]

Jesus actually clarified who his audience was…..in the later verses of that chapter…..

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25  And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26  Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27  And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

“Everyone” who reads his words are his audience…..it required action upon hearing his truth….a rock solid foundation.

Jesus also identifies those who will not be part of that judgment….those who have died…..
These have “paid sin’s wages”. The highest penalty under Gods law was death….so who is ransomed out of the grave?
Paul wrote….”For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Rom 6:7)
So no one is raised to be judged for what they did before serving their time in the grave. They are raised with a clean slate; they have paid their debt…and they are forgiven, thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.

John 5:28-29…Jesus tells us…
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29  and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

Notice that this resurrection was in the future….and it’s for “all those in the memorial tombs”…..these will come back to life, according to God’s promise. (Acts 24:15) The dead haven’t gone anywhere….except to “sleep”.…..Jesus will awaken them.

Because those who are resurrected are called from their tombs, they will be judged either worthy of life (because of dying in a faithful condition), or they are raised to a period of judgment, given the opportunity to prove their worthiness, especially if they have died without knowledge of God or his gift of redemption in Christ.

This to me, is perfectly fair. Our choices in this life, determine our own destiny.

It does not make my observation invalid, the alternative is that the good Lord who has no desire that souls He created are lost, but He in fact has the opposite desire that all will be saved and then only saves a few. You are free to believe that, I don't.

 

[St. SteVen]

Why is it illogical to call salvation a gift?

A gift by very nature is free of BOTH cost and obligation.
Is there any obligation connected with salvation?

Jesus asked us to count the cost.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
On the contrary.
There is value in the here and now for a renewed relationship with Christ.
In the end everyone will be saved, but salvation is for NOW.

This may be some kind of your private religion, but this is not the teaching of the apostolic Church. Salvation is for eternity and universalism is a very rare idea outside of the Christian mainstream, so not something to claim with such certainty.

Not true.

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

 

[Lizbeth]

The -ism suffix is always employed to facilitate dismissal of more difficult points of contention.

It's as if to say, "I need not address the point you contend, as greater men have already settled the matter."

If the aforementioned men of supposed greatness didn't make it into the Bible, I hold them in contempt for having the audacity to declare for themselves the finality of any matter with potential for contention. The disobedient have been shutting down the conversation from the beginning, but the truth goes marching on.

And if God says He saves to the uttermost, I believe Him. How faith and study bring us to understand the truth of His words is what these '-isms' seek hastily to dismiss.

Suppression comes only from deception because truth is made known by exposure.

Looking at that whole verse:

Heb 7:25
Wherefore he (Christ) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him (Christ), seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

 

[St. SteVen]

Looking at that whole verse:

Heb 7:25
Wherefore he (Christ) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him (Christ), seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

Are you assuming "in this lifetime"?
That physical death is the end of the "offer" of salvation from God?
Does salvation then, depend on us? Was the Atonement of limited application? (Calvinism)

 

[Lizbeth]

All of humankind was under the wrath of God.

All of fallen humankind who are without Christ still IS abiding under the wrath of God, according to scripture. We dont' get to just make this up as we go along, but we live by the word of God.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mar 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (condemned, ie, to death).

Jhn 5:26-29
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (condemnation, ie, to death).











Eph 2:1-10







And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;



Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,



Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) ;



And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.



For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Not of works, lest any man should boast.



For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.











Eph 5:6

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 

[St. SteVen]

All of fallen humankind who are without Christ still IS abiding under the wrath of God, according to scripture. We dont' get to just make this up as we go along, but we live by the word of God.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mar 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (condemned, ie, to death).

Jhn 5:26-29
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (condemnation, ie, to death).

Those are some solid apologetics for Damnationism. (the forever-burning hell)
"Damned" doesn't mean destroyed.

I thought you were an Annihilationist?

All three views of the final judgment are contradictory.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[St. SteVen]

All of fallen humankind who are without Christ still IS abiding under the wrath of God...

I'm pretty sure that everyone will have a bit of "wrath" to contend with in the judgment.

By "wrath" I mean accountability for our actions. Every nation, leader and individual.

 

[St. SteVen]

John 3:36

Mar 16:15-16

Jhn 5:26-29

Eph 2:1-10

Eph 5:6

I hope you won't criticize me for cherry-picking in the future. Thanks.

 

[Button]

Jesus mentioned Hell 3% of the time and inferred Hell with words like perish, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and other inferences. The Apostles never shied away from speaking of Hell. El Shaddai said many times in the old testament.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Hell is just as real as Heaven; both eternal. Jesus spoke this ,

Luke 12:5 - But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Isaiah 29:16 -
Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,
That what is made would say to its maker, “He did not make me”;
Or what is formed say to him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Actually,Paul's physician and companion ,spoke that in Luke 12.

 

[Lizbeth]

Are you assuming "in this lifetime"?
That physical death is the end of the "offer" of salvation from God?
Does salvation then, depend on us? Was the Atonement of limited application? (Calvinism)You b

Yes, it must be in this lifetime. since "it is appointed unto man but once to die and after that the judgment." There are only two resurrections after death....one is to eternal life and the other is to shame and condemnation....as scripture also says....everyone will have their part in either one or the other. There is no mention in the bible of another judgment and a third resurrection following your imagined purgation in the lake of fire.

 

[Lizbeth]

Imagine if Hell did exist because God ,who parts of Scripture tell us,predestined his Elect to be Saved. While predetermining others would not be,because they were created unable to understand and repent. As Jesus said.

Where then would we find A true Savior? When God predestined some to save and others not. And those not Saved he predestined to Hell?

Hell is man's invention. Not God's.

Lake of fire......is not man's invention but was prepared for the devil and his angels, into which all wicked and unbelieving who are not in the Lamb's book of life will be cast when they are judged. I mean that is what the bible says. Jesus also referred to it allegorically as gehenna.....a place outside the city where garbage, carcasses of dead animals and criminals were thrown to be burned. It was a continually burning fire that never went out because there was a constant supply of "fuel"..

 

[Lizbeth]

I can see it in this scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Please take notice that this applies to those who at least have the foundation, which is Christ. It is clearly speaking of believers, not unbelievers.

We can either build on that foundation with spiritual materials of God and His Spirit that can withstand the fire, or those of our own fleshly self efforts and methods which will burn up in the fire, hence suffering loss.

Jhn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The devil wants you the believe that. I have seen hell.

Perhaps the devil wants you to believe in a place that the Bible does not speak about?

What is “Gehenna”?....what is “Sheol”?...what is “hades”?...what is “the lake of fire”? All of these carry the same title “hell” in Christendom.....but unless you understand what all these words mean and how they were understood by their first century audience, you will fall into the devil’s trap, where ignorance masquerades as truth.

Can you trust what you have “seen”?
Who else can implant thoughts, visions and ideas into the minds of men to bring them under his control?

Can you tell me the purpose of this “hell of eternal torment”? Why would a just and loving God even think of inventing such a place? (Jer 7:30-31)
If God was going to punish sinners, according to the Bible accounts, it was swift and permanent....and it took place in this life because there are no “immortal souls” in this ‘holding tank’ invented by the devil.

Every law of God was meant to teach us something about ourselves, and our accountability to a God who never made one law that involved prolonged torture. All his laws were just and fair and in the big picture were designed to bring us to repentance....either by the lesson learned from our own mistakes, or by the penalty suffered by others as a deterrent.

Once you understand where this notion of “eternal conscious” punishment came from, you will see the devil’s agenda in it. It was he who said to the woman...”you surely will not die”......when God told Adam that they “surely would die”, if they disobeyed his command.
What then is “death”? It is the opposite of life....nowhere does the Bible say that life continues consciously after death. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
So the eternal punishment spoken about in Scripture is eternal death....the incorrigibly wicked will have their lives terminated, permanently. Only God knows who is in “Gehenna”.

What more does God really have to do? He is not sadistic, but the place you are talking about is an invention of the one who is....the one who enjoys misleading fallen mankind and creating all the chaos and tragedy that his world inflicts on us. (1 John 5:19)

How is it just to punish humans, who are born sinful through no fault on their part, and can only sin for their short lifetime, with a punishment that lasts forever with no chance of repentance.....? Does that sound like a God of love and justice, to you?

God’s whole purpose of allowing this time under the devil’s rulership is to show us the folly of disobedience and to experience the consequences of our own actions. God wants repentance, and we defeat the devil by giving that as our gift to God......like Job, we can suffer his assaults without losing our faith, because we know why he targets us. (Prov 27:11) We can take sides with our Creator and show the devil what real faith looks like....or we can believe his lies and continue to paint the Creator as a sadistic fiend.
Whose side are you on?

 

[Lizbeth]

Those are some solid apologetics for Damnationism. (the forever-burning hell)
"Damned" doesn't mean destroyed.

I thought you were an Annihilationist?

All three views of the final judgment are contradictory.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Those verses are very good news.....for whosoever will. Unfortunately not everyone is willing. God in His foreknowledge has created some to be vessels of His mercy and some to be vessels of wrath. The unbelieving are already called "children of wrath"....as we all once were.

What does it mean to be condemned (damned) in context of being judged? It means condemned to die. A condemned criminal is one under the sentence of death. What are the wages of sin? Death. That's what it means to perish. And the bible says that fallen man is like the beasts that perish. This is not complicated.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, it must be in this lifetime. since "it is appointed unto man but once to die and after that the judgment." There are only two resurrections after death....one is to eternal life and the other is to shame and condemnation....as scripture also says....everyone will have their part in either one or the other. There is no mention in the bible of another judgment and a third resurrection following your imagined purgation in the lake of fire.

Can GOD LIE .
Thus can Christ lie .
My advice is WE HOLD FIRM to what HE said and we warn with the same warning .
TO include this one , HE who adds to or takes from this book , NAME GONE OUT OF BOOK OF LIFE
HELLO lake of f ire . THERE Is no mention at all of a third ressurection following his imagined purgation in the lake of fire .
THEY ARE ADDING TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION . and no wonder
THEY DONT EVEN PREACH THE GOPSEL . they create universlism , inclusivism and just about any other ism one can think up .
AS FOR ME .
TAKE a good long guess at WHOSE WORDS i am gonna b elieve . SAME AS YOU SISTER , we BELEIVE GOD not men .

 

[amigo de christo]

Those verses are very good news.....for whosoever will. Unfortunately not everyone is willing. God in His foreknowledge has created some to be vessels of His mercy and some to be vessels of wrath. The unbelieving are already called "children of wrath"....as we all once were.

What does it mean to be condemned (damned) in context of being judged? It means condemned to die. A condemned criminal is one under the sentence of death. What are the wages of sin? Death. That's what it means to perish. And the bible says that fallen man is like the beasts that perish. This is not complicated.

Sister you are dearly loved . You sure have been trying sister .
THAT MAN DONE BOUGHT and FELL IN L OVE with a lie . AND HE has NO plans of letting GO
NOR even getting up and preaching the absolsute dire need to BELEIVE ON JESUS .
HE is a deconstructionist in heart body and in mind . HE has never once
even attempted to hear . All he does , is week by week always try and bring something
in to cause doubt about WHAT was already WELL WRITTEN in that bible .
He is the wrong solider sister . We can pray for him . But i shake the dust off against him as a warning .
I truly pray that man repent asap for his own sake .

 

[amigo de christo]

Those verses are very good news.....for whosoever will. Unfortunately not everyone is willing. God in His foreknowledge has created some to be vessels of His mercy and some to be vessels of wrath. The unbelieving are already called "children of wrath"....as we all once were.

What does it mean to be condemned (damned) in context of being judged? It means condemned to die. A condemned criminal is one under the sentence of death. What are the wages of sin? Death. That's what it means to perish. And the bible says that fallen man is like the beasts that perish. This is not complicated.

What did peter warn the church . JUDMENT begins at THE HOUSE OF GOD
and if it begin at us , WHAT WILL THE END BE of those who obey Not the gospel of God .
Now if memory serves me
I read about apostels who were stoned . wow that would hurt .
Backs ripped open with whips , rods and etc .
I later read ab out how nero had christains wrapped in wax oil , THEN LIT ON FIRE
and the screams and wails could be heard .
Others also t hroughout history have been b urned alive in flames .
YET PETER said , AS PAUL WOULD TOO
SOMETHING FAR WORSE , A FAR sorer punishement awaits THE Christ denyer .
Now what could b e worse a fate .
I mean even by the law one could b e stoned to death
By two or three witnesses .
And what DID JESUS say
to those who failed to beleive on HIM . WOE unto thee , , WOE unto thee
it will be far worse for YOU than ever it was for sodom on the DAY OF JUDGMENT .
And yet st steven wants to ADD IN a THIRD ressurection t ype . NEVER MENTIONED in REVELATION .
BUT THIS was mentioned in revelation
HE who adds too
HE who takes from , LAKE OF FIRE , the plagues . st steven has ab out zero idea
the wrath he is a heaping up for himself .