Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[Aunty Jane]

It seems that many of them learn from teachers rather than letting the Bible speak to them personally in their own reading of it.

Since this is the way God has always taught his people, through human teachers, and in organised worship specifically dictated by God himself through his earthly representatives, and in written form, doesn’t this emphasise the importance of the source of that teaching, as well as the validity of what is taught by those who purport to be teachers of God’s word? Where did it all go wrong?

Kind of like mother birds feeding their young. They regurgitate in their mouths. - LOL

I guess you could say that, but when you step back and observe what is presented as “Christianity” today.....there are “mother birds” in all denominations, regurgitating their many versions of what can essentially be only one truth. Aren’t all who claim to be Christians supposed to be united in their worship?

What did Paul say...?
“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”(1 Cor 1:10)

By what stretch of whose imagination does that describe Christendom?

Since Jesus foretold that the “weeds” (false Christians) planted by the devil in this world, would grow along with the “wheat”....what is it that separates them?......the plain truth is that they cannot all be right.....and as Jesus stated, it’s the majority who would be travelling blindly on a super highway to “destruction”.
“Few” will actually be found on the right path (Matt 7:13-14)....so who is responsible for this situation? God or the devil? How are humans to make their choices as to who or what to believe? Is it left entirely up to us?

What is the upshot of that confusing situation? Do the false Christians know that they are? When will they know? Jesus himself will tell them......but not until the judgment....too late then to do a U-turn. All will be found to be who God sees them to be....not who they imagine themselves to be. All will have had ample time to show God who they truly are.

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22  Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23  And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’” (Matt 7:21-23)

Who wants to be on the receiving end of that rejection?
What is the benefit of all their “works”....all done in Jesus’ name....?
When he tells them “I never knew you”....”NEVER” means “not ever”. Think about that for a moment.
And he calls them “workers of lawlessness”...so whose laws are they breaking? God’s laws!

Every person who carries the label “Christian” will be measured by how they perceive that label to be manifest in their own lives. The majority will be deceived into thinking that they are “good enough”, but it won’t be until the judgment that they find out how God and his Christ view them.....there can be no “Universal salvation” based on what the Bible teaches.....and God will not alter himself or his standards of justice based on sentiment. He is not a sentimental God, but a merciful one. Mercy is granted where it is earned, or warranted by circumstance.....but justice demands a penalty for disobedience. Isn’t that the lesson in the garden of Eden? One act of disobedience resulted in the entire human race being caught up in the consequences of the actions of three free willed individuals (Rom 5:12).....all of whom knew that to disobey God would never have a good outcome....yet selfish interest took them all down the wrong path.

The basis for salvation then is dependant on two conditions....”no one can come to the Father except through the Son” (John 14:6)....and “no one can come to the son unless it is granted by the Father”. (John 6:65)

We have to have a certain condition of heart in order for God to issue an invitation to come to his son as a disciple....and obedience to all of God’s requirements makes it conditional......those who don’t like or want conditions, have already disqualified themselves. Our choices are ours to make...and God is observing every one of us. May we all choose wisely.

 

[St. SteVen]

there can be no “Universal salvation” based on what the Bible teaches.....

And no eternal conscious torment either, I suppose?

There are three doctrines of the final judgment in the Bible.
All three are contradictory. Take your pick.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Ultimate Redemption

 

[Lizbeth]

Imagine somebody drowning and being offered a free gift of a lifebuoy. I hope you understand the flaw in your parody, now. It is still free no matter that the person drowned because of the gift rejection.

The term "free" in the context of salvation does not mean "it is not needed". It means we do not need to earn it.

Amen. It doesn't seem as though @St. SteVen understands unbelievers are under the wrath of God and condemned already, as scripture says.....they are already drowning, sadly, but don't know it, as none of us did. God is not threatening to do it to anybody, so much as everyone has done it to themselves. All the Lord is doing is faithfully warning that it will not end well if they don't grab that lifebuoy! St. Steven is looking at this all bass-ackwards.

 

[St. SteVen]

It doesn't seem as though @St. SteVen understands unbelievers are under the wrath of God and condemned already, as scripture says.....

All of humankind was under the wrath of God. The wages of sin is death.
But Jesus paid the death penalty. Not a partial payment, paid in full.

To be clear, this doesn't mean that the nations, leaders (both government and religious)
and individuals will not face consequences.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And no eternal conscious torment either, I suppose?

The Bible never speaks of such a place except metaphorically. What purpose would it serve a God of justice? His punishments were in accord with the severity of any crime.....the highest penalty under God’s law was death! Not torture.

There are three doctrines of the final judgment in the Bible.
All three are contradictory. Take your pick.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Ultimate Redemption

There is no such thing as “damnation”...only appropriate sentencing for failure yo obey God’s Commands, which, as Sovereign of the Universe, he has every right to dictate. If we find his laws restricting our free will to be intolerable, he has no place for us in his future plans for planet Earth....which will be the restoration of all that we lost in Eden. No rebel will exist in those future plans. No complainers.....

Annihilationism is based on God’s perfect justice and the conditions placed on human life from the beginning. It was a simple equation....”obey and live...disobey and die”. There was no mention of an afterlife to Adam...he was told that death meant the end of life, and a return to the dust....IOW he would simply go back to where he came from. Where were any of us before our parents conceived us....we simply didn’t exist. Why is that hard to comprehend?

1) we were not created to die and therefore we have no “program” for death, which made us vulnerable to the devil’s lie.....death is OK if we don’t really die......have you fallen for that one too?

2) there is no such thing as an “immortal soul” that survives death. That is a satanic lie, suggesting the same thing to mankind that he did to Eve in the garden. He simply told her that ‘she would not die’. She believed him....and the same lie is believed down to this day, and held in all false worship. The ancient Jews had no such belief. They were taught about “resurrection”...which is a return to life not a continuation of it, invisibly, somewhere else.

Ultimate Redemption is completely opposite to what the Scriptures teaches about what it means to be “saved”. Salvation is not earned, but it didn’t mean that there are no conditions.
Continuing life in Eden was conditional from the beginning. As long as they obeyed God’s reasonable laws, they would continue living, but if they disobeyed...death would be the penalty.
If all were saved regardless, what was the point of the law? What was the point of Jesus ministry and the ministry of his apostles? They would have been pointless once Jesus offered his life to redeem the fallen human race....it would have been a done deal. The Bible states that a final judgment awaits all of us.

God has rules and if we chafe under them, we demonstrate that we are not the kind of citizens that he wants in his coming Kingdom. If we want to question God or blame him for our suffering, think back to what obedience offered the first humans....unending life in paradise. No heaven or hell....just an idyllic existence with meaningful work to do and enjoyment in the company of others who love and appreciated creation....and more importantly, the Creator, who lovingly provided all they needed to enjoy life on earth forever.

Your choices stated above, need definition and an understanding of God’s first purpose in putting us here on planet Earth in the first place.....(Isa 55:11) That is what will be reinstated.

 

[Button]

And no eternal conscious torment either, I suppose?

There are three doctrines of the final judgment in the Bible.
All three are contradictory. Take your pick.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Ultimate Redemption

Imagine if Hell did exist because God ,who parts of Scripture tell us,predestined his Elect to be Saved. While predetermining others would not be,because they were created unable to understand and repent. As Jesus said.

Where then would we find A true Savior? When God predestined some to save and others not. And those not Saved he predestined to Hell?

Hell is man's invention. Not God's.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ultimate Redemption is completely opposite to what the Scriptures teaches about what it means to be “saved”. Salvation is not earned, but it didn’t mean that there are no conditions.

I can see it in this scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[St. SteVen]

Where then would we find A true Savior? When God predestined some to save and others not. And those not Saved he predestined to Hell?

It seems to me that a God like that couldn't be trusted.
Eventually all of humankind would be in hell for one reason or another.

 

[Button]

It seems to me that a God like that couldn't be trusted.
Eventually all of humankind would be in hell for one reason or another.

It's a fear paradigm.
There are those who teach that the scriptures that say,fear God,means be afraid of God.

If a church can induce fear,and then prop themselves up as saviors from the fear they induced, the church will flourish.
That's what the RCC did.

They're not of Christ. Because with all the confessions and penance their members participate in to the end of their days,even last rites,they are not assured Heaven.

They have to suffer Purgatory first.
For all that means to say Jesus is not a Savior from all sin. The church rules,invention, take precedent.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I can see it in this scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I guess that all depends on the translation you use as this passage is not clearly understood in a cursory reading....so, what is the context? This is speaking about those who teach others....and whether they build in their students a ‘fire resistant faith’. It’s a responsibility not to be taken lightly.

Another translation put it this way.....1 Cor 3:9-15...this is Paul speaking....
“For we are God’s assistants; you are God’s farm—God’s building. 10 In accordance with the grace given to me, like a wise master-builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it.

But let each one look out how he builds on it. 11 For nobody can lay any other foundation beside the one that has been laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12* But if one builds onto the foundation gold, silver, fine stones, wood, weed-stalks, straw, 13 each man’s work will show up. For the day will reveal it, because in fire it is disclosed, and the very fire will test what sort of work each man’s is. 14 If anyone’s work that he built on it stands, he will receive payment; 15 if anyone’s work burns up, he will be the loser, but he will himself come safe through, but in such fashion as one comes through a fire.” (BLE)

This raises the question about those who teach and those who are taught. Who is the builder, and who is the building under construction?

If the teacher endeavours to build in his student a fire resistant faith, the testing fire may come but both will come through it with their lives.....OTOH if the teacher is trying to build in their student, fire resistant materials, but the student is not progressing in faith due to some impediment in their character, he may well fail when the fire of testing comes. The teacher will suffer the loss of his student but he will not lose his own life because the student failed.
How does one feel when they have survived a fire? As a survivor myself, I can tell you it is a traumatic experience.
No one teaches another about salvation only to lose them to disobedience....it is a loss that will be deeply felt.

The teacher is under obligation to teach the truth from God’s word.....but God holds the student responsible for the decisions he makes concerning the application of the information provided to him.

No one can earn salvation as it is open to everyone...but it is conditional...like it or not.

 

[ProDeo]

“Few” will actually be found on the right path (Matt 7:13-14)

Matt 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Matt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

One of those scary sayings by Jesus. We know Israel rejected Jesus and Jesus knew. Should we therefore not understand the red Him meaning the Jews of His time?

If we apply and those who find it are few to all people that ever lived then this (maybe) inappropriate thought crosses my mind - is the devil going to win? Can't believe that!

 

[HealthyShape]

LOL
That's ridiculous.

Gift wrapped with a bow?

View attachment 80481

gift /gĭft/

noun​

1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

No, a gift to be saved from the natural consequences of your actions. I do not know what is going on with your illogical memes and parodies. It is like if you do not understand the point of the gospel.

It is not just about Jesus paying for our sins. It is also about our faith in Jesus to enter into the kingdom of God and to not be left outside. Only those who are in Jesus are saved. It is free in the meaning that we do not need to pay for it, that we do not need to earn it with our own effort.

Free does not mean irrelevant or not needed or optional for salvation. Which is what all your illogical criticism of the term "free" seems to be based on. Christianity would not need to be preached in such case and the apostles did not need to sacrifice themselves for the gospel. Everybody would be saved just automatically, in their own religion or without any religion.

 

[St. SteVen]

No, a gift to be saved from the natural consequences of your actions.

What you described was not a gift, it was a rescue operation.
It's illogical to call that a gift.

Free does not mean irrelevant or not needed or optional for salvation. Which is what all your illogical criticism of the term "free" seems to be based on. Christianity would not need to be preached in such case and the apostles did not need to sacrifice themselves for the gospel. Everybody would be saved just automatically, in their own religion or without any religion.

On the contrary.
There is value in the here and now for a renewed relationship with Christ.
In the end everyone will be saved, but salvation is for NOW.

 

[Rockerduck]

Jesus mentioned Hell 3% of the time and inferred Hell with words like perish, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and other inferences. The Apostles never shied away from speaking of Hell. El Shaddai said many times in the old testament.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Hell is just as real as Heaven; both eternal. Jesus spoke this ,

Luke 12:5 - But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Isaiah 29:16 -
Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,
That what is made would say to its maker, “He did not make me”;
Or what is formed say to him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus mentioned Hell 3% of the time and inferred Hell with words like perish, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and other inferences. The Apostles never shied away from speaking of Hell. El Shaddai said many times in the old testament.

I think these terms refer to the judgment (evaluation/restoration) and the afterlife, but not to an eternal hell.

Hell is just as real as Heaven; both eternal. Jesus spoke this ,

Luke 12:5 - But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

That doesn't prove your point.
To whom was Jesus speaking?

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

How does no "pleasure in the death of the wicked" square with eternal hell?

 

[Aunty Jane]

One of those scary sayings by Jesus. We know Israel rejected Jesus and Jesus knew. Should we therefore not understand the red Him meaning the Jews of His time?

Jesus actually clarified who his audience was…..in the later verses of that chapter…..

“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25  And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26  Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27  And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

“Everyone” who reads his words are his audience…..it required action upon hearing his truth….a rock solid foundation.

If we apply and those who find it are few to all people that ever lived then this (maybe) inappropriate thought crosses my mind - is the devil going to win? Can't believe that!

Jesus also identifies those who will not be part of that judgment….those who have died…..
These have “paid sin’s wages”. The highest penalty under Gods law was death….so who is ransomed out of the grave?
Paul wrote….”For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Rom 6:7)
So no one is raised to be judged for what they did before serving their time in the grave. They are raised with a clean slate; they have paid their debt…and they are forgiven, thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.

John 5:28-29…Jesus tells us…
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29  and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

Notice that this resurrection was in the future….and it’s for “all those in the memorial tombs”…..these will come back to life, according to God’s promise. (Acts 24:15) The dead haven’t gone anywhere….except to “sleep”.…..Jesus will awaken them.

Because those who are resurrected are called from their tombs, they will be judged either worthy of life (because of dying in a faithful condition), or they are raised to a period of judgment, given the opportunity to prove their worthiness, especially if they have died without knowledge of God or his gift of redemption in Christ.

This to me, is perfectly fair. Our choices in this life, determine our own destiny.

 

[Rockerduck]

That doesn't prove your point.
To whom was Jesus speaking?

How does no "pleasure in the death of the wicked" square with eternal hell?

put all 3 verses together. The wicked die. God has authority after they die to end them to hell. God is the potter who formed you and can do what he wants.

 

[St. SteVen]

put all 3 verses together. The wicked die. God has authority after they die to end them to hell. God is the potter who formed you and can do what he wants.

Are you saying that God is a merciless tyrant?
(that is what you described)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus mentioned Hell 3% of the time

Not “hell”….”Gehenna”. A place of no return….not a place of eternal conscious torment.

Luke 12:5 - But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Again fear that God who can terminate your existence….he has no need or desire to send anyone to an eternal torture chamber.

 

[Rockerduck]

Are you saying that God is a merciless tyrant?
(that is what you described)

God has sovereign control over our existence. How can we challenge God. Ask God about this.