Proper Bible Interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-10

[Truth7t7]

Obviously you flunked kindergarten English.

The grammatical referent of "he" is "the prince", and the grammatical referent of "the prince" is "the Messiah the Prince".

The Romans and Jews under the command and control of Messiah the Prince destroyed and desolated the city and sanctuary.

Demonstrated and proven Scripturally, historically, and grammatically.

What to believe?
1. You
2. Scripture, history, and grammar
Need a hint?

The Roman commander Titus credited God with enabling the destruction of Jerusalem.

Titus, a pagan, was immeasurably smarter than you.

The Reformed preterist teaching that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is a "Lie", the future "prince" will be present on earth until (The Consummation) or (The End) future events unfulfilled, and Jesus doesn't cause abomination nor desolation

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[covenantee]

The Reformed preterist teaching that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is a "Lie", the future "prince" will be present on earth until (The Consummation) or (The End) future events unfulfilled, and Jesus doesn't cause abomination nor desolation

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 

[Davy]

I have to laugh at @covenantee's fake claim that he understands English grammar with his false interpretation of "the prince" of Daniel 9.

Dan 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Because the above Hebrew word for "Messiah" (anointed) is included with that Hebrew word for "Prince", which can mean a commander, chief, captain, etc., that makes it specific to be about our Lord Jesus Christ. Even the subject of that verse establishes that also.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The subject matter in the above verse also establishes that difference with that word "Messiah" in the first phrase, which is about Lord Jesus being 'cut off' at the cross. But the next phrase about "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary", is OBVIOUSLY about a different prince, and not Messiah Lord Jesus. Because remember, in the Hebrew the word for 'prince' there can mean a commander, a chief, a captain, etc., and does not have a religious connotation. But the Hebrew word for "Messiah" does, and points specifically to Lord Jesus.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

When reading the 27th verse, English grammar requires that pronoun "he" which is not defined in that 27th verse, MUST pick up the subject of the last he of the PREVIOUS VERSE.

And what person was the last subject in the previous 26th verse? That "prince" over the people that shall come and destroy the city Jerusalem and its sanctuary, which was the ROMAN army led by the Roman commander, general Titus in 70 A.D.

Therefore, in reality, there is NO WAY to mess up and wrongly assign Lord Jesus Christ as being that "prince" (commander) of the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. (And Calvin certainly is not... a good source to try and rely on, for he made several grave Bible interpretation errors with his 'legalist' type thinking).

 

[covenantee]

I have to laugh at @covenantee's fake claim that he understands English grammar with his false interpretation of "the prince" of Daniel 9.

Dan 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Because the above Hebrew word for "Messiah" (anointed) is included with that Hebrew word for "Prince", which can mean a commander, chief, captain, etc., that makes it specific to be about our Lord Jesus Christ. Even the subject of that verse establishes that also.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The subject matter in the above verse also establishes that difference with that word "Messiah" in the first phrase, which is about Lord Jesus being 'cut off' at the cross. But the next phrase about "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary", is OBVIOUSLY about a different prince, and not Messiah Lord Jesus. Because remember, in the Hebrew the word for 'prince' there can mean a commander, a chief, a captain, etc., and does not have a religious connotation. But the Hebrew word for "Messiah" does, and points specifically to Lord Jesus.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

When reading the 27th verse, English grammar requires that pronoun "he" which is not defined in that 27th verse, MUST pick up the subject of the last he of the PREVIOUS VERSE.

And what person was the last subject in the previous 26th verse? That "prince" over the people that shall come and destroy the city Jerusalem and its sanctuary, which was the ROMAN army led by the Roman commander, general Titus in 70 A.D.

Therefore, in reality, there is NO WAY to mess up and wrongly assign Lord Jesus Christ as being that "prince" (commander) of the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. (And Calvin certainly is not... a good source to try and rely on, for he made several grave Bible interpretation errors with his 'legalist' type thinking).

Yes, your pathological ignorance has rendered you impotent and incapable of refuting the immutable laws of grammar.

So laugh is all you can do.

Obviously you were kindergarten best friends with truthless666, as you flunked kindergarten English along with him.

There is no "different prince" in the passage. There is only one Individual identified as a Prince therein.

He is Messiah the Prince.

The Roman armies were His people when under His command and control, to accomplish His purposes of judgment and desolation upon apostate Israel.

He is the Divine Covenant Confirmer, cut off at Calvary in the midst of the 70th week, becoming the Perfect Complete Sacrifice for all time.

And annihilating all fables, fantasies, and fallacies of the ignorant, impotent, and incapable.

You still haven't explained how your decapitated, orphaned, undetermined 70th week fulfills Daniel's "Seventy weeks are determined".

Because you can't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It looks like I am already on Davy's ignore list

I think I am, too. It's probably a long list. He's very sensitive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Risible impotence.

That describes your utter inability to defend your decapitated orphaned undetermined 70th week against Daniel's resounding declaration, "Seventy weeks are detemined".

So in your oblivion you did the right thing.

You didn't even try to defend your error.

Good for you.

Keep it up.

Regarding your rantings about SDA, here are excerpts on Daniel 9:27 by John Calvin, who pre-dated SDA by more than two centuries:

"
The angel now returns to Christ.
The angel now continues his discourse concerning Christ by saying, he should confirm the treaty with many for one week
Now, therefore, we understand why the angel says, Christ should confirm the covenant for one week
Thus God's covenant is established with us
"

With the understanding that each of the determined 70 weeks are equal to 7 years (as most agree is the case), these hyper-futurists turn a determined 70 weeks (490 years) for the prophecy to be fulfilled from beginning to end into a determined 69 weeks and undetermined 70th week that, according to them, still hasn't been fulfilled around 354 weeks (2483 years) since the beginning of the fulfillment of the determined 70 weeks. So, if the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled as they believe, then a future fulfillment of the prophecy would be at least 2,000 years past the determined deadline. How can they think it's okay to add at least 2,000 years to the determined amount of time for the prophecy to be fulfilled and still expect to be taken seriously? It's a mystery.

 

[covenantee]

With the understanding that each of the determined 70 weeks are equal to 7 years (as most agree is the case), these hyper-futurists turn a determined 70 weeks (490 years) for the prophecy to be fulfilled from beginning to end into a determined 69 weeks and undetermined 70th week that, according to them, still hasn't been fulfilled around 354 weeks (2483 years) since the beginning of the fulfillment of the determined 70 weeks. So, if the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled as they believe, then a future fulfillment of the prophecy would be at least 2,000 years past the determined deadline. How can they think it's okay to add at least 2,000 years to the determined amount of time for the prophecy to be fulfilled and still expect to be taken seriously? It's a mystery.

Yeah, it defies comprehension as to how something so antiScriptural, antiHistorical, and antiGrammatical, can be swallowed as truth in so much of the Christian Church.

It is a sick, sad, sorry commentary on the condition of that very large portion of the Church which is deceived by it.

 

[Davy]

Yeah, it defies comprehension as to how something so antiScriptural, antiHistorical, and antiGrammatical, can be swallowed as truth in so much of the Christian Church.

It is a sick, sad, sorry commentary on the condition of that very large portion of the Church which is deceived by it.

So says one who does not follow what The Bible as written says.

 

[covenantee]

So says one who does not follow what The Bible as written says.

So says one who substitutes his decapitated orphaned undetermined 70th week for Daniel's inspired fulfilled determined 70th week.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So says one who does not follow what The Bible as written says.

The Bible as written says that the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 was determined to be completely fulfilled within 70 weeks (490 years) of when it began to be fulfilled. It's been around 2,500 years now since the 70 weeks (490 years) began and you think it's still not fulfilled. So, it's fulfillment has been inexplicably delayed for around 2,000 years, according to you.

 

[Davy]

The Bible as written says that the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 was determined to be completely fulfilled within 70 weeks (490 years) of when it began to be fulfilled. It's been around 2,500 years now since the 70 weeks (490 years) began and you think it's still not fulfilled. So, it's fulfillment has been inexplicably delayed for around 2,000 years, according to you.

That might be what your MODIFIED SDA BIBLE says, but it is NOT what the written Word of God says.

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

What my Lord Jesus Christ said above ENDS ALL DEBATE about the 70th final week of Daniel 9:27 having been already completed, because in the ABOVE SCRIPTURE, (which your false SDA Bible apparently does not have) CONFIRMS that "abomination of desolation" event written in the Book of Daniel is to ONLY OCCUR for the END... of this world during the coming "great tribulation".

But who knows, by the false doctrines of the charlatans you listen to and heed, you probably also believe the lie that the "great tribulation" Lord Jesus warned about for the END has already happened!!!

 

[covenantee]

That might be what your MODIFIED SDA BIBLE says, but it is NOT what the written Word of God says.

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

What my Lord Jesus Christ said above ENDS ALL DEBATE about the 70th final week of Daniel 9:27 having been already completed, because in the ABOVE SCRIPTURE, (which your false SDA Bible apparently does not have) CONFIRMS that "abomination of desolation" event written in the Book of Daniel is to ONLY OCCUR for the END... of this world during the coming "great tribulation".

But who knows, by the false doctrines of the charlatans you listen to and heed, you probably also believe the lie that the "great tribulation" Lord Jesus warned about for the END has already happened!!!

If you'd listened to your own futurized fantasized falsified foolish advice, you would have rejected Jesus' warning, stayed in Judaea, and been slaughtered along with countless thousands of Jews.

But the Judaean Christians heeded Jesus' warning, and fled, and survived.

They were waaaaaaaaay smarter than you.

And the Judaean Christian Church was preserved.

Not one of them was reading your Scofield novel.

Not one of them was a victim of your futurized fantasized falsified foolishness.

Thank God for that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That might be what your MODIFIED SDA BIBLE says, but it is NOT what the written Word of God says.

LOL. I'm not SDA. It appears that you are afraid to actually address the argument that has been made. Instead of 70 weeks (490 years) being determined for the prophecy to be fulfilled from beginning to end, you believe it's not fulfilled yet after around 2,500 years. You are blatantly changing the prophecy by adding at least around 2,000 years to the deadline for it to be fulfilled. And you think nothing of doing this because you just believe whatever you want to believe instead of what scripture teaches.

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

What my Lord Jesus Christ said above ENDS ALL DEBATE about the 70th final week of Daniel 9:27 having been already completed, because in the ABOVE SCRIPTURE, (which your false SDA Bible apparently does not have) CONFIRMS that "abomination of desolation" event written in the Book of Daniel is to ONLY OCCUR for the END... of this world during the coming "great tribulation".

That is clearly referring to what occurred in 70 AD. It says let those in Judea flee to the mountains, not those throughout the world. The parallel passage from Luke 20:21-24 makes it clear that the Matthew 24:15-21 passage relates to a time when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and then made desolate, which is exactly what happened in 70 AD. Do you not understand that Jesus telling the disciples that the temple buildings standing in Jerusalem at that time would be destroyed is what spawned the Olivet Discourse? How can you think that nothing in the Olivet Discourse would relate to the destruction of the temple buildings?

But who knows, by the false doctrines of the charlatans you listen to and heed, you probably also believe the lie that the "great tribulation" Lord Jesus warned about for the END has already happened!!!

Whatever you say, false teacher.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you'd listened to your own futurized fantasized falsified foolish advice, you would have rejected Jesus' warning, stayed in Judaea, and been slaughtered along with countless thousands of Jews.

But the Judaean Christians heeded Jesus' warning, and fled, and survived.

They were waaaaaaaaay smarter than you.

And the Judaean Christian Church was preserved.

Not one of them was reading your Scofield novel.

Not one of them was a victim of your futurized fantasized falsified foolishness.

Thank God for that.

Yes, I'm very thankful that those many Judean Christians actually understood what Jesus was talking about, and didn't completely lack discernment like Davy, and that resulted in them not being killed like the Jews who stayed in the area were.

 

[Jay Ross]

LOL. I'm not SDA. It appears that you are afraid to actually address the argument that has been made. Instead of 70 weeks (490 years) being determined for the prophecy to be fulfilled from beginning to end, you believe it's not fulfilled yet after around 2,500 years. You are blatantly changing the prophecy by adding at least around 2,000 years to the deadline for it to be fulfilled. And you think nothing of doing this because you just believe whatever you want to believe instead of what scripture teaches.

It is not wise to sprout a false understanding. This is how I have framed Daniel 9:24-27: -




We need to accept that: -

• The first prophecy has a duration of 490 solar years.​
• The second prophecy happens between after the conclusion of the first prophecy and is completed by the end of the fourth prophecy.​
• The third prophecy overlaps the first prophecy but that it has different starting and finishing points to the first prophecy.​
• The fourth prophecy points to when the second prophecy was confirmed when Christ was crucified on the cross.​
• The fifth prophecy points to when the temple and Jerusalem will be levelled and the inhabitants taken and scattered throughout the whole earth. This prophecy has duration approaching two ages in duration.​
• The sixth prophecy will occur during the Little While Period after those imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit are released after their imprisonment for 1,000 years.​

My prayer is that the above is useful to this thread and any discussion that follows.

Shalom

 

[covenantee]

It is not wise to sprout a false understanding. This is how I have framed Daniel 9:24-27: -

View attachment 80577
View attachment 80578

We need to accept that: -

• The first prophecy has a duration of 490 solar years.​
• The second prophecy happens between after the conclusion of the first prophecy and is completed by the end of the fourth prophecy.​
• The third prophecy overlaps the first prophecy but that it has different starting and finishing points to the first prophecy.​
• The fourth prophecy points to when the second prophecy was confirmed when Christ was crucified on the cross.​
• The fifth prophecy points to when the temple and Jerusalem will be levelled and the inhabitants taken and scattered throughout the whole earth. This prophecy has duration approaching two ages in duration.​
• The sixth prophecy will occur during the Little While Period after those imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit are released after their imprisonment for 1,000 years.​

My prayer is that the above is useful to this thread and any discussion that follows.

Shalom

Quoting what you identify as "First Prophecy":

Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sinning.

Quoting the same portion from the KJV:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,

Note that you place a period after "sinning" in order to split the prophecy, but Daniel places a comma after "sins" to retain unity in the prophecy.

Why have you revised the text?

Looking ahead to your "Sixth Prophecy", you describe "he" as "insolent".

The grammatical referent of "he" resolves to Messiah the Prince in verse 25.

In what Scripture is Messiah the Prince described as insolent?

 

[Jay Ross]

Quoting what you identify as "First Prophecy":

Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sinning.

Quoting the same portion from the KJV:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,

Note that you place a period after "sinning" in order to split the prophecy, but Daniel places a comma after "sins" to retain unity in the prophecy.

Why have you revised the text?

Looking ahead to your "Sixth Prophecy", you describe "he" as "insolent".

The grammatical referent of "he" resolves to Messiah the Prince in verse 25.

In what Scripture is Messiah the Prince described as insolent?

Are you SDA?

 

[covenantee]

Are you SDA?

I asked my questions first.

Answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

 

[Jay Ross]

In what Scripture is Messiah the Prince described as insolent?

Is your understanding that Daniel 9:27 is referring to the Messiah, the prince, the right way of considering this verse?

In my paraphrasing of Daniel 9:24-27 I am suggesting to you that Daniel 9:27 is actually referring to Satan instead. It is Satan who is the desolator in Daniel 9:27.

Now are you SDA?

 

[covenantee]

Is your understanding that Daniel 9:27 is referring to the Messiah, the prince, the right way of considering this verse?

In my paraphrasing of Daniel 9:24-27 I am suggesting to you that Daniel 9:27 is actually referring to Satan instead. It is Satan who is the desolator in Daniel 9:27.

Now are you SDA?

What covenant does Satan confirm?

The Desolator "He" was Messiah. Grammar affirms. The Roman armies were under His command and control.

I'm not SDA. Neither was the historic orthodox Christian Church before SDA.

I've answered all of your questions and you've answered none of mine.

Why did you replace the comma with the period?
Where in Scripture is Messiah described as insolent?

There's no point continuing until you do.