RepentingChristian
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that atheists, Muslims, and Hindus will be enjoying Heaven in the company of God the Father?
Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?
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Are you suggesting that atheists, Muslims, and Hindus will be enjoying Heaven in the company of God the Father?
Wrangler
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Your JW indoctrination is showing again.
Unable to grasp the contradiction? Israel is not a part of God's plan for the future, except this new Israel. To escape, you use quotes as if that changes anything.
- A is A
- A is not "A"
Bold thing to say with over 1,000 years of many Christian nations. I know. I know. They aren't "genuine" meaning think like you.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
"Israel" is the CHURCH, it is NOT the country that is killing people left and right all over the Middle East.
Davy
Well-Known Member
First of all, it depends on what kind of support you mean.
The Christian west should support the nation of Israel as far as protecting them from attack, just like we would any NATO nation. Just as the western nations supported Israel in the 1973 war when Egypt and Syria attacked.
We should trade with them freely also. Afterall, as us Christians, they actually do represent our brethren, just that God has spiritually blinded the majority of them away from The Gospel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom.11).
But should we allow Israel to wipe out any Islamic nation that attacks them, like let's say Syria or Iran? No. In time God will avenge His people.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Not true, not even Biblically true.
I recommend you study the 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 Bible Chapters.
God split the old kingdom of Israel in Solomon's day because of Solomon allowing his many foreign wives to bring their idols in among the children of Israel.
House of Judah:
Solomon's son Rehoboam of the tribe Judah and house of David became "king of Judah" over the southern "kingdom of Judah". It was also called the "house of Judah". It was made up of 3 tribes of Israel, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. These would be known as JEWS.
House of Israel:
Then God made Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim "king of Israel" over the northern ten tribes of Israel. It was called the "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel."
The two kingdoms even had war against each other.
God scattered the northern ten tribe "house of Israel" first because of Jeroboam calf idols in the north. A small remnant out of the ten tribes left the north and sided with Judah. But the majority of the ten tribes were taken captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes by the kings of Assyria. These would never return to the holy land, but lost their heritage as part of Israel being scattered among the Gentiles. They took Gentile customs and names, and eventually migrated out of Assyria to the west, to Asia Minor and Europe. They became the Cimmerian tribes that crossed over the Caucasus Mountains north of the Black Sea, becoming known as Caucasians.
Then the "house of Judah" also began to fall away, and God brought the king of Babylon upon them, and removed them to Babylon. A small remnant of these Jews returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the city, wall and 2nd temple. That's who the Jews there today represent, a remnant of the "house of Judah". The majority of them chose to stay in Babylon after their captivity, because God took good care of them in Babylon. Then many of them were further scattered in the countries like the ten tribes were. The main difference with these Jews though, is that they retained their heritage as part of Israel, keeping God's feast days, new moons, and sabbaths. No matter where they traveled to, they kept that heritage, and were never lost like the ten tribes were.
Per Apostle Paul in Romans 11, he said God put spiritual blindness upon the majority of Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul said God will remove that blindness from them when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So their opportunity at Christ's Salvation isn't lost just yet.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yet most brethren in Christ are Biblically illiterate about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem at the end who will play God there, and reign over all nations for 42 months at the end, for the coming "great tribulation" time (See Revelation 13:4-8; Revelation 11; 2 Thess.2:3-9).
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Believers are called to live as God's chosen people, reflecting His holiness and love to the world.
1 Peter 2:9 echoes the language of Exodus, applying it to the church.
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
Israel is the Church.
1 Peter 2:9 echoes the language of Exodus, applying it to the church.
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
Israel is the Church.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I agree the ten scattered tribes of Israel, and a believing remnant of Judah, are part of Christ's Church along with believing Gentiles. I'd never disagree to that.
And I also believe Christ's Church will represent Christ's elect who will reign with Him over the nations, including over the unbelieving Jews, in His future Millennial Kingdom. But that time is not here yet today.
Today, the two 'houses' of the children of Israel are still split. The unbelieving Jews in Israel, and in all nations, still represent the "house of Judah". And per Romans 11, which it appears you've forgotten to read, Paul said God put spiritual blindness away from The Gospel upon the majority of Jews for this present world so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But... the time will come when the fullness of the Gentiles happens (at Christ's return), and Paul said that is when God will REMOVE that blindness, and thus all Israel shall be saved.
So we are not to judge them to condemnation, but leave that up to Lord Jesus Who will be The Judge of all.
Civilians everywhere should be supported and empathized with. Governments, on a case-by-case, policy-by-policy basis ideally
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is what most people miss....when God abandoned the Jews, he handed them over to the god they chose to serve....the ones who thought that ancestry carried weight that disobedience did not invalidate.
They were wrong! Their ancestry carried no weight at all when Christ came, which is why John the Baptist could say to that disobedient nation.......
“And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:9-10 ESV)
What “fruitage” have this nation produced throughout their sad and sorry history?
When God was with them, no nation could defeat them...they did not have to rely on worldly nations to back them up.....their God alone was all the backup they needed, but when they made alliances with worldly nations out of fear and lack of faith, God left them to the consequences of rejecting him...he allowed their enemies to conquer them. If the nations of today like the USA failed to provide backup, Israel on its own would be lost....but they are still lost due to their own disobedience and reliance on others.....where is their God fighting for them?
Jesus said to them.....
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matt 23:37-39 ESV)
The house of Israel was left to them, desolate......that “house” (nation) would not see Jesus again until it recognises Jesus as Messiah, who came in the name of Yahweh, his Father.
For the last 2000 years Israel has denied Jesus as the Christ....and many hate Christians for pointing out to them that their Messiah is not coming....he’s been and gone and is due back again, “appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead.”
Israel are just as much a part of the world as any other nation. They are not special, nor are they “saved” because Abraham is their ancestor.....God raised up another nation to replace them as his “people”.
This nation is exclusively God’s property and no ethnicity is required to become part of its citizenry.
Acts 10:34-43....
“So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (ESV)
There is so much in that passage of Scripture....what is “the good news of peace” that was preached in Israel so that they could be free of the conflicts and adverse judgments that had always plagued them due to their disobedience?
When God was with Israel, they prospered, but when they disobeyed, God abandoned them to their enemies, and they were helpless....defeated and lost, until he rescued them time and again. Why did he put up with their continued disobedience, when such conduct invalided his covenant with them?
His purpose in connection with them had to fulfill prophesy...they were the ones through whom the Savior would be born. And as Peter stated.... “They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses“.
Those who support the physical nation of Israel today, are those who expect a reward for that support....the so called “Christian nations” who still believe what the Bible says, pertains to literal the inhabitants of Jerusalem....
Zechariah 8: 20-23 from the ASV....
“Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah. Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
This is prophesy....though like many prophesies, not fully understood until after its fulfilment.
We see this today as the non-Jewish nations placating Jehovah for a reward for hanging onto the coattails of natural Jews, when speaking prophetically of a time when the natural Jews (as a nation) would be abandoned, as incorrigible....just as Jesus said. (Matt 23: 13-15, 33)
This is not a prophesy about literal Israel, but spiritual Israel, adopted as “sons of God” who will rule with Christ, not in literal Jerusalem but in heavenly Jerusalem.
Hebrews 12:22-26....
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” (ESV)
How do we understand the warning here?
God is about to bring his purpose to fulfilment.....to “shake” up not only the earth, where the rebellion took place, but also the heavens, where the first rebel originated, and took a third of the angels with him.
Israel is warning example to Christendom....
All mankind are about to face the end of this satanically controlled world, and the imprisonment of satan and his angels....so that they cannot interfere with his purpose any longer....this is in order to bring us back to Eden....to our beginning....and to the life God first intended for the human race. (Rev 21:2-4) A restoration.
Under the rulership of the “Prince of Peace”, all who love war, and who are involved in the filthy politics and bloodshed of this corrupt world, will have no place. (John 18:36)
Will we be among the saved or the lost? By our own decisions we determine our own destiny.
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RepentingChristian
Well-Known Member
What about this?
Amos 9:14-15
"I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant them on their land, AND THEY SHALL NEVER AGAIN BE UPROOTED out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is prophesy....so what is the bigger picture? Who are “God’s people Israel” in our day?
Are they the same nation of “God’s people” that the whole of the OT is about?
The apostle Paul tells us the story....he likens what Jehovah originally had in mind to the development of an olive tree, a tree common to his native land of Israel...... the root of this typical olive tree was Abraham himself. The tree stock, or trunk, that sprang up from Abraham was made up of his son Isaac, his grandson Jacob, (or Israel), and the 12 sons of Jacob, who were the fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel.
By natural descent, members of those 12 patriarchs were branches in that typical olive tree. As such, they were directly in line to become the promised “seed of Abraham” by means of whom “all the families and nations of the earth would be blessed” according to Jehovah’s promise. But what they did not know about this “seed” was that it was not going to be a fleshly seed by natural descent from the patriarch Abraham.....it was to be a spiritual “seed.”...Jesus had to be born as a human descendant of Abraham, and he was legally as the perceived son of Mary and Joseph.....but he was not related to Abraham biologically at all, because he was “the son of God”. His parents knew that.
Those who were chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, were not going to only be natural Israelites by fleshly descent from Abraham, because the natural Jews murdered their own Messiah, that was the last straw for God...Jesus had already sealed their fate. (Matt 23:33, 37-39)
Who was Jesus sent to? “None by the lost sheep of the house of Israel”....these “lost” ones were to be the foundation of spiritual Israel, joined later by gentiles who came to Christ. (Acts 10:34-35) These became “the Israel of God”. (Gal 6:16)
God used the adoption laws in Israel to choose a new family of “sons” to fulfill his purpose....as natural Israel were serial covenant breakers....these sons, taken into a new covenant, would not let him down.
A child by adoption was viewed in the same way as a child by blood.
As was prophesied, only a small “remnant” of the natural Jews were “saved” to be the seed of God’s promise to Abraham, to be heirs of his “promise,” as foretold in Isaiah 10:22. Paul quotes this prophecy in Romans 9:27 to show us what it meant in that later fulfilment. Only a remnant of the natural Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah. And those saved would be spiritual Israel, not the incorrigible nation that murdered their own Messiah, after a history of continued disobedience.
God originally accepted them as his people on one condition...that they strictly obeyed his laws....as soon as they broke them, they invalided their side of their legally binding covenant. Their spiritual decline over the centuries merited God’s abandonment, after he had lived up to his side of the agreement.
God owes natural Israel, nothing. He transferred his love and blessings to a new spiritual nation.....why would he keep serial offenders in existence when his law was clear.
Obey and live...disobey and die.....this was the only two options available to them...they chose their own destiny.
Will we emulate them by our own disobedience?
Trump 1300 agrees with you. I knew he was truly a Communist .
The Leader of China is a Idol to you all, but for People who came from China that I have worked for here do not look up to him at all !
The best Person I have ever worked for back in 1990, when working on his house was Hong Kong China man.
My brother picked up a huge flower pot for them with a tree in it, that they had out the back yard, and the China man spun right out ! saying Wooooooooorrrrrrrrrrr ! Super man !
His wife fed us as well for lunch and real good food it was ! no Aussie would ever do that.
The China man hated the Japs tho ! and bagged them a lot !
I have always got on well with people from China tho.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Being succinct and pertinent AJ carries more weight than a thesis which waffles.
How is it you settle for the latter?
RepentingChristian
Well-Known Member
The "bigger picture" is that Israel was extinct for 1,900 years and, as promised, it was restored. Obviously, Israel remains an integral part of God's plan, your word-salad dissertation notwithstanding.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Impotent rage of Australians, China's Type 055 destroyer is right at your doorstep, yet you are helpless. You rely on the United States to help you, but you are nothing more than America's lapdog and gangster henchmen.
May God protect you, for in the face of real war, that will be the fruits you deserve. At least for now, it's just a warning.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Jesus came under the law to fulfill all prophesy, the Jews rejected Jesus. Then Jesus got rid of Mosaic law and even foretold that the temple would be destroyed and told His disciples to flee when they see the troops surround Jerusalem 40 yrs later. Pentecost changed everything., now only Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Paul said there is neither Jew, nor Greek anymore, we are one in Christ. Everyone on earth must come to salvation in Jesus. There is no plan for any nation anymore. When Christ returns, He is going to destroy the earth. Then there will be a new Heaven and a new earth. Why would today's Israel want to build a temple and go back to the Mosaic law? They still violently reject Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 - and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2 Peter 3:10-13 - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Revelation 21:1 -Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
if in any way he is , HE is decieved and lying to all .
just a friendly reminder to us all . IT BE JESUS PREACHING TIME n the building . cause ONLY HE SAVES
and to be saved ONE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM . HE IS THE CHRIST the SON OF GOD MESSIAH
and budda , muhammed and his islam and any other religion will save none .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
if trump , biden , the popes , the nar realm and etc
IS anyones savoir ,
BOY do i have real bad news . THEY CANNOT SAVE THEE OR ME .
they fleecing us all .
JESUS saves
And to be saved ONE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM . All else , winds of vainity that shall reap the whirlwind of destruction
upon all who sowed to it .
JESUS saves . TO the trenches one and to the trenches all . the hour is late .