Do you like, dislike, or are neutral on Israel?

[JustMe]

Yes, but you apparently don't believe that God wants ALL to be saved and that Jesus will succeed in doing so. I believe that Jesus is capable and willing and he will succeed at persuading ALL BEINGS to gleefully proclaim that he is Lord and willingly follow him into God's eternal Kingdom, although many won't follow him until after their physical death and a visit to the proverbial "Lake of Fire".

Well, that's your interpretation and your application into this scripture of course. Remember, it is the Father who brings souls to Christ first. I believe he still has the major player in the matter of salvation. His Son still listens to his Father.

To be clear: Ephesians 1:10 speaks of God’s plan to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth." While the phrase "all things" is broad, biblical interpretation consistently limits its scope to those who are in Christ, not every individual universally.

 

[Taken]

Do you like, dislike, or are neutral on Israel?

Israel …Spiritually…IS Gods People.
I love all of Gods People…
Some individuals, (Gods People or not), I do not like.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[RepentingChristian]

To be clear: Ephesians 1:10 speaks of God’s plan to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth." While the phrase "all things" is broad, biblical interpretation consistently limits its scope to those who are in Christ, not every individual universally.

Incorrect. Here is another translation of Ephesians 1:7-10 from Young's Literal Translation. Jesus came to unite ALL of creation to himself and Jesus WILL succeed and then give the completed kingdom to God the Father as described in 1 Corinthians 15. Besides, do you really believe that God created beings who he knew would fail and who then punish them FOREVER in Hell?

Ephesians 1:7–10 YLT
7 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, 10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth—in him;

 

[Wrangler]

Yes we are. But you approve of killing.

Man, you play both ends against the middle, don't you!

There is no other way but to ’play both ends against the middle’ when Jesus commanded us to:

1. First, give to Caesar what is Caesars’s;
2. Then, Give to God was is God’s.

It‘s only the overly-spiritualized who preach half the gospel, which is a false Gospel.

 

[JustMe]

Incorrect. Here is another translation of Ephesians 1:7-10 from Young's Literal Translation. Jesus came to unite ALL of creation to himself and Jesus WILL succeed and then give the completed kingdom to God the Father as described in 1 Corinthians 15. Besides, do you really believe that God created beings who he knew would fail and who then punish them FOREVER in Hell?

Ephesians 1:7–10 YLT
7 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, 10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth—in him;

The YLT does not say all creation for a good reason. Stop exaggerating and imagining it says 'all creation' as in all peoples as your objective. And it does not say 'to himself,' either for good reason. Those who possess his spirit and his Father's only, as human beings shall be perfectly restored.

All things or the whole of those things that needs to be restored, to harmonized to a state of living for all those in Christ is a major part.

There is no hint here of a universal restoration as I believe you desire this scripture to read. Such a notion would be in fiat contradiction to the doctrine of Divine election, which dominates the whole passage. God’s purpose is to form a united kingdom, consisting of the unfallen and the restored—the unfallen in heaven, and the restored - a completely new formed earth, and to gather this whole body of Christ together under Christ as its Head.

All things in Christ refers to those who are redeemed through faith in Christ, including both believers on earth and good angels who remained faithful. These are the ones who are spiritually "in Christ" and will be brought into perfect unity with Him.

The verse also implies a restoration of harmony between heaven and a new earth, including the renewal of creation itself—the new earth, and most probably animals, and all of nature—delivered from corruption (Romans 8:21) and restored to its original purpose under Christ’s rule.

Again, this gathering is not universal salvation; it does not include fallen angels or those who reject Christ. The "things in heaven" and "things on earth" are those already united to Christ by grace, not all beings universally.

The Greek word anakephalaioō (to gather together again) emphasizes reunion and restoration—a return to the original state of unity under Christ, broken by the fall of both angels and humans.

If you are not in Christ, you also will not be perfectly restored in Christ, in the Kingdom.

 

[RepentingChristian]

There is no hint here of a universal restoration as I believe you desire this scripture to read.

So you think that God created beings with the knowledge that they will suffer forever outside of his Kingdom? Is that your theology?

 

[Brakelite]

Let not anyone forget Who is in charge, and what His principle goal is. God is in control. It is He that takes down kings and sets them up. That includes Trump, Netanyahu, and whoever is in charge of Iran, Saudi, UAE, and everywhere else. And that control began at creation and hasn't waned. And the purpose? That the gospel may be preached in all the world. Just as God used Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzar and others to first punish then free Israel, so God today is still working His own will. Iran in the biblical sense is not a minor bit player in world events. Remember, Cyrus was a Persian. It is ironic that Israel is calling Trump a modern day Cyrus in protecting Israel from modern Persia.
But back to God's purposes. That God's salvation through Christ may be preached to every nation, tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6). At the moment the church in Iran is one of the fastest growing in Christendom. Home churches, which are illegal under sharia laws, are multiplying greatly. At the risk of lives. We have seen what the government there is willing to do to their own people should they misbehave. I don't know what will happen. I can't justify war on political grounds. However, there have been numerous examples throughout history where God has interpretation interposed in international affairs that have resulted in the gospel being taken to otherwise unreachable places. Persecution in Europe by Catholicism resulted in the gospel going to America. The breaking down of the Berlin wall (ironically at the instigation of the pope and Ronald Reagan) resulted in the gospel going to Russia.
So could the capitulation of the regime in Iran free the church to spread the gospel there in an atmosphere of religious liberty brought about by a different regime? Could that set of a domino effect throughout the middle east? What then would the effect upon Israel, surrounded by Christian nations (as they once were)? Would Israel recognize them as greater enemies or friends?

 

[JustMe]

So you think that God created beings with the knowledge that they will suffer forever outside of his Kingdom? Is that your theology?

I'm just the messenger and not the one to blame or to speak to on this very serious issue. I would take it up with the Boss, in private, to resolve it. I suspect this has been weighing on your mind and heart for quite some time now. And I do not believe this eventual restoration process with produce continual suffering as you describe it, as an extreme outcome not found in scripture.

 

[RepentingChristian]

I'm just the messenger and not the one to blame or to speak to on this very serious issue. I would take it up with the Boss, in private, to resolve it. I suspect this has been weighing on your mind and heart for quite some time now. And I do not believe this eventual restoration process with produce continual suffering as you describe it, as an extreme outcome not found in scripture.

You could have just said "yes".

Anyway, your infernalist theology contradicts a plethora of scriptures, not to mention God's nature.

 

[Brakelite]

Well I guess their biggest fault(s) maybe include all the bad things they (Zionists/Globalists) have allegedly done to Western & former Eastern gentiles (though alot may be the Vatican's and other "white" globalists' fault really/too?), and trying to set up a state and fight the Moslem/Arab/Palestinian world without God &/or while still rejecting the messiah Yeshua (allegedly killing and displacing alot of Palestinians etc in the process), and trying to set up a false messianic world peace without true messiah/God. (Not that anyone else including me are perfect either but just saying why I picked neutral on "Israel".)

(Correct me if I am wrong about anything. I don't know everything, I only have to guess by what I see or hear from various different sides informations. I keep track of mainstream Western info also including Jewish info, nationalist info, Christian/Messianic info, "Satanist" info, even a little Arab/Moslem info, and try to weigh what is and isn't true while being careful to seek God/bible first and foremost.)

The bible hints at these things. In Revelation even though the beast and harlot don't seem to be Israeli, Israel is called "Sodom and Egypt". Maybe one reason the beast is so anti-semitic and ant-christian is seemingly because of wrongs Jews allegedly done in the last centuries? Bible implies only 1/3rd of Jews saved in tribulation?

Some of what you have said I agree with, while some is affected by dispensational teachings. The most serious aspect of the current American prophetic dispensation focus is that Israel dominates the vision to the exclusion of a more accurate prophetic view that is taking place under American noses, but are blind to.

 

[TazzJazz]

There is no other way but to ’play both ends against the middle’ when Jesus commanded us to:

1. First, give to Caesar what is Caesars’s;
2. Then, Give to God was is God’s.

"First Caesar,
Then God"!?!

Jesus didn't say that!
If anything, its God first.
At Acts 5:29, "Peter and the other Apostles said, "We must obey God as ruler rather than men.""

It‘s only the overly-spiritualized who preach half the gospel, which is a false Gospel.

I don't even know what this means.
I know those who justify being disobedient, are on the "road to destruction." -- Matthew 7:13,14

 

[Lambano]

I like Israel, but I don't see how they can continue to exist as a democratic "Jewish State" without committing genocide or an "ethnic cleansing" (both of which are considered "crimes against humanity") of the Palestinian population.

 

[Mosheli]

Some of what you have said I agree with, while some is affected by dispensational teachings. The most serious aspect of the current American prophetic dispensation focus is that Israel dominates the vision to the exclusion of a more accurate prophetic view that is taking place under American noses, but are blind to.

Can you explain more about "a more accurate prophetic view that is taking place under American noses" if it is not off topic here, or somewhere else? Just interested to know more that I may not know.

 

[soberxp]

Well I guess their biggest fault(s) maybe include all the bad things they (Zionists/Globalists) have allegedly done to Western & former Eastern gentiles (though alot may be the Vatican's and other "white" globalists' fault really/too?), and trying to set up a state and fight the Moslem/Arab/Palestinian world without God &/or while still rejecting the messiah Yeshua (allegedly killing and displacing alot of Palestinians etc in the process), and trying to set up a false messianic world peace without true messiah/God. (Not that anyone else including me are perfect either but just saying why I picked neutral on "Israel".)

(Correct me if I am wrong about anything. I don't know everything, I only have to guess by what I see or hear from various different sides informations. I keep track of mainstream Western info also including Jewish info, nationalist info, Christian/Messianic info, "Satanist" info, even a little Arab/Moslem info, and try to weigh what is and isn't true while being careful to seek God/bible first and foremost.)

The bible hints at these things. In Revelation even though the beast and harlot don't seem to be Israeli, Israel is called "Sodom and Egypt". Maybe one reason the beast is so anti-semitic and ant-christian is seemingly because of wrongs Jews allegedly done in the last centuries? Bible implies only 1/3rd of Jews saved in tribulation?

Imagine that Israel fully submits to Jesus Christ and ultimately submits to God. Instead of imagining that the God in the Old Testament led them in battles, that was the Old Testament. The New Testament is not like that...
Although they believed it was...

 

[JustMe]

Can you explain more about "a more accurate prophetic view that is taking place under American noses" if it is not off topic here, or somewhere else? Just interested to know more that I may not know.

Not to steal BLs thunder, although I see his point and have for many decades now. The political State of Israel is running the US and American missions and foreign Policy at least in the Middle East. Most Americans are either in denial or really do not believe it and a few know this already.

I think BL's position is more on these lines however: There's a current myopic vision that leads to a theological and political blind spot: the belief that God’s plan is unfolding primarily through geopolitical events in the Middle East, especially concerning Israel, while overlooking the moral, spiritual, and societal decay within the U.S.

 

[Triumph1300]

Great job, MAGA, world-class stuff.

If the goal was to harden the regime, rally the security state, and hand the global economy another inflationary brick to the face, then yes, mission accomplished.

Oil over 110.00/barrel.
Everything will cost more, it does not matter what you will be buying.
And mark my words, more body bags arriving soon.

Great job MAGA movement.
Awesome job, Mr. Trump and friends.
------------------------------------
Bombing your way into another Middle East crisis was never going to produce cheap oil, stable prices, or democratic transformation.

 

[RepentingChristian]

The political State of Israel is running the US and American missions and foreign Policy at least in the Middle East.

 

[Brakelite]

Not to steal BLs thunder, although I see his point and have for many decades now. The political State of Israel is running the US and American missions and foreign Policy at least in the Middle East. Most Americans are either in denial or really do not believe it and a few know this already.

I think BL's position is more on these lines however: There's a current myopic vision that leads to a theological and political blind spot: the belief that God’s plan is unfolding primarily through geopolitical events in the Middle East, especially concerning Israel, while overlooking the moral, spiritual, and societal decay within the U.S.

You have summed up my potential response fairly well. However, I would take it a step or two further.
Most people on this forum know me as a Seventh Day Adventist. And most of them are aware of adventist eschatology, and for those who aren't, allow me to enlighten them.
In 1864 the church was officially inaugurated. The pioneers who formed the nucleus of believers had spent the previous 20 years deep in Bible study. In 1851,.J N Andrews was the first to write a formal presentation of their understanding of the identity of the second beast of Revelation 13. Using the same hermeneutic as the reformers, that being historicism, (as opposed to preterism and futurism both of which were Jesuit counter Reformation teachings promoted to destroy the Protestant identification of the Catholic system as Antichrist, the first beast), John Andrews, along with others, agreed that the second beast with two lamb like horns which rose to power at the same time the papacy had received its apparently mortal wound was the United States. This was at a time when the US had only 50 years previous written its constitution and declaration of independence. Who thought 170 years ago that the USA would grow to be powerful enough, influential enough, and wealthy enough to so powerfully promote and institute a global mark establishing false worship in subjection to the papacy?

Seventh Day Adventists did. And despite constant opposition and being called absurd cultists, they retained that belief and have never backed away from it. And today, the US is the only power on earth capable of accomplishing this. All eyes on Israel? Wrong way.

 

[stevesonthebay]

Do you like, dislike, or are neutral on Israel?

Its sort of like chicken and egg senario. What came first the organic recognition of Isreal as a naturally gifted or perhaps self determined and hard working people. Whatever they certainly created good situations for themselves as a people even under duress.

Or that they were given special treatment and thus are used as a bad example because they gained their success by taking advantage or were given an unfair advantage.

Either way Isreal seems to have more attention on them then any other people.

I think if we step back and look at Isreal as we would any people. Then for me Isreal is a fascinating and incredible people. A long history and more than most other peoples. A rich history perhaps more than most peoples.

But a good example of a oppressed people who rose up several times to overcome the odds and create something. You have to give them credit and respect for that.

 

[lforrest]

My tacit support for Israel is not a matter of likes or dislikes. But of God's faithfulness and evidence of his blessings upon Israel, and curses upon her enemies.

Not to mention that as Christians we shouldn't yield to evil spirits that hate the Jews.