Ezekiel 37 Happens BEFORE Christ's Future Millennium Reign

[PinSeeker]

Hi Pin...

No disrespect intended, but I don't really like being called "Pin"... <smile> In my first response to you, I was going to sort of whimsically refer to you as Trekkie, but thought, "No, better not do that..." <smile>

, First, let me say that, as a christian, I completely reject the term " apocalyptic literature"...

Hm. It's just the genre of literature of several parts of the Bible. And that's important, because depending on the genre it is to be read and understood a little differently. Apocalyptic literature often depicts graphic, even dramatic, visions of... well, various things and events, but while the visions are real and there is often a historical figure or event depicted, these are portrayed in symbolic form. You can "reject it" if you want, but you shouldn't have a problem with it. It is what it is.

. It's a word unbelievers came up with to describe unfulfilled prophecy...

No, again, it's just the genre of literature used by Biblical writers... God, really, as He is the real Author of His Word. In various other parts of the Bible we see poetry and what we call wisdom literature. It's just referring to the style of what is written, and depending on the category should be read appropriately. To be... well, stark about it, I guess... we don't read Revelation like a... well, a biography, or a history book, or a Dick and Jane first grade primer.

When unbelievers hear that phrase, they automatically assume that the bible is some sort of sci-fi fantasy book of fables and not as God's holy word! When immature believers hear that phrase, it reduces prophecy to something that is "just a wild imagination, surely that can't be the truth" which then closes them off from accepting most unfulfilled prophecies as truth.

Disagree. But if some do, they're just not being fair to the text. To that statement, though, apocalyptic literature should be read more like a picture book rather than trying to puzzle out all the details.

It takes a lot less analysis to first accept it as absolute literal truth and then if it doesn't align w/ the rest of prophecy, figure out why.

Any part of the Bible should be read for all it's worth. Many do not do that, for various reasons.

I use this as an aid, "If it makes sense, seek no other sense."

Hmmmm. There are a lot of things in God's Word that could be understood in different senses. And sometimes, more than one of those senses could be right. But many times, one of the senses is right and the other(s) wrong. Again, I mean this respectfully, but I think there's a bit of a laziness aspect to what you say here.

In Rev., everything from cp. 6 to the end is indeed future...

No it's not... <smile>

and since none of that has been fulfilled yet brings us to our time.

Not completely fulfilled. <smile> In other words, so many of the things John describes in his visions have many fulfillments, and those fulfillments take place over the course of history from his time up to ours and until Jesus returns.

There are a couple of references to past truth, like the beginning of Rev. 12, but if one looks to the past to try and define Rev. 17 as many do, they start to go off the rails.

Not sure what you even mean by this, but that's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

 

[Davy]

There are many prophecies that speak of the same events but they hardly ever use the exact same wordage. When this happens, it's the differences between them that adds to the existing prophecy. Most of Rev. doesn't introduce new prophecies, it expands upon the prophecies that were given in the OT. It's quite possible to have prophecies, for example from Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekial and Zechariah all speaking about the same event using different words, maybe a couple of them add to what was already said. This what being a Berean is all about. Studying the whole of prophecy, then "rightly dividing" where they land on the prophetic narrative as a whole.

No need to try and explain all that to me. I'm well aware of how Christ's Book of Revelation pulls from the Books of God's prophets. And I have to disagree with you that Revelation doesn't contain new prophecies, and at the same time giving more detail not known before concerning OT prophecies. Just the Revelation 2 & 3 Chapters are direct evidence of this, which is about the seven Churches of Asia that the OT prophets did not speak about.

Thus I have to assume that what you are saying isn't really based on what you yourself have studied, but instead what others have said.

 

[Trekson]

No disrespect intended, but I don't really like being called "Pin"... <smile> In my first response to you, I was going to sort of whimsically refer to you as Trekkie, but thought, "No, better not do that..." <smile>


Hm. It's just the genre of literature of several parts of the Bible. And that's important, because depending on the genre it is to be read and understood a little differently. Apocalyptic literature often depicts graphic, even dramatic, visions of... well, various things and events, but while the visions are real and there is often a historical figure or event depicted, these are portrayed in symbolic form. You can "reject it" if you want, but you shouldn't have a problem with it. It is what it is.


No, again, it's just the genre of literature used by Biblical writers... God, really, as He is the real Author of His Word. In various other parts of the Bible we see poetry and what we call wisdom literature. It's just referring to the style of what is written, and depending on the category should be read appropriately. To be... well, stark about it, I guess... we don't read Revelation like a... well, a biography, or a history book, or a Dick and Jane first grade primer.


Disagree. But if some do, they're just not being fair to the text. To that statement, though, apocalyptic literature should be read more like a picture book rather than trying to puzzle out all the details.


Any part of the Bible should be read for all it's worth. Many do not do that, for various reasons.


Hmmmm. There are a lot of things in God's Word that could be understood in different senses. And sometimes, more than one of those senses could be right. But many times, one of the senses is right and the other(s) wrong. Again, I mean this respectfully, but I think there's a bit of a laziness aspect to what you say here.


No it's not... <smile>


Not completely fulfilled. <smile> In other words, so many of the things John describes in his visions have many fulfillments, and those fulfillments take place over the course of history from his time up to ours and until Jesus returns.


Not sure what you even mean by this, but that's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

I looked up the origins of apocalyptic literature and I was mostly correct because the term seems to have come from the Jews because of prophecies they had expected to come true, but didn't in the manner they expected. Also, it is what they called called some books that they didn't accept into their scriptures like Enoch. Trekkie would have been fine because I am one. Is there a shortened version your handle that you would accept? God doesn't write "apocalyptic literature". You're right, we should read Rev. as a roadmap for the generation that will actually see "all these things come to pass". The bible has been futurist since Genesis and until the literal millennium is over always should be considered that way. Nothing from Rev. 6 on has been fulfilled. The literal cannot be explained by the symbolic. When one tries they are doing a disservice to what Jesus has revealed to us, He doesn't play mind games.

 

[Trekson]

No need to try and explain all that to me. I'm well aware of how Christ's Book of Revelation pulls from the Books of God's prophets. And I have to disagree with you that Revelation doesn't contain new prophecies, and at the same time giving more detail not known before concerning OT prophecies. Just the Revelation 2 & 3 Chapters are direct evidence of this, which is about the seven Churches of Asia that the OT prophets did not speak about.

Thus I have to assume that what you are saying isn't really based on what you yourself have studied, but instead what others have said.

I don't consider Rev. 2-5 prophecies that affect us at all because they were the "what are" from John's time.

 

[Davy]

I don't consider Rev. 2-5 prophecies that affect us at all because they were the "what are" from John's time.

Yet Jesus gave specific events in those 7 Messages that only happen at the very end of this world, including after His coming. So those Messages were not just for that time of John, but are still in effect for ALL Churches to this day.

 

[PinSeeker]

I looked up the origins of apocalyptic literature and I was mostly correct...

Fair enough. But it is a different style in the Hebrew and Greek than the rest of Scripture and should be read appropriately to really understand it correctly.

...the term seems to have come from the Jews because of prophecies they had expected to come true, but didn't in the manner they expected. Also, it is what they called called some books that they didn't accept into their scriptures like Enoch.

Maybe so, but still, it is what it is.

God doesn't write "apocalyptic literature".

<chuckles>

You're right, we should read Rev. as a roadmap for the generation that will actually see "all these things come to pass".

We are that generation, which should be understood quite differently than what was as human beings refer to as a generation. So, in human terms, every generation since Pentecost as been actually seeing these things come to pass.

The bible has been futurist since...

Never. There are foretellings of things, certainly. But with regard to the things John wrote of, to the things he "saw." yes, they were mostly future at that time, but we have been experiencing them ever since. So in that respect, it is not purely futurist. And that's the issue with both pre- and post-millennialism. John says at the outset of Revelation that all who read and keep his prophecy will be blessed. To be blunt about it, if everything he "sees" and "shows us" is really yet future, then no one since John wrote Revelation can actually be blessed, because none of it applies to them, and that's absurd, really.

Nothing from Rev. 6 on has been fulfilled.

Yeah, again, not completely.

The literal cannot be explained by the symbolic.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, it can. It certainly can. If God's "steadfast love,... extends to the heavens..," (His) "...faithfulness to the clouds..." (His) "...righteousness is like the mountains of God..." (His) "...judgments are like the great deep..." (Psalm 36), is this not literally true? Does this not in some way describe many very true things about the great, awesome, magnificent God we serve? <smile> So I would say about John's visions. They are magnificent, shocking, and very frightening at time images of very real things.

When one tries they are doing a disservice to what Jesus has revealed to us

I very respectfully, but completely, disagree.

He doesn't play mind games.

With this I agree. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Trekson]

Yet Jesus gave specific events in those 7 Messages that only happen at the very end of this world, including after His coming. So those Messages were not just for that time of John, but are still in effect for ALL Churches to this day.

Are they though? or could it be the world of Christandom that was greatly martyred and persecuted between 100-300ad. Those spoken of in Foxe's Book of Martyrs. We know the GT spoken of by Christ will last more than the ten days of Rev.2:10, but that doesn't mean the GT will be the only period of persecution and martyrdom, just the largest since the history of the church.

 

[Trekson]

Fair enough. But it is a different style in the Hebrew and Greek than the rest of Scripture and should be read appropriately to really understand it correctly.


Maybe so, but still, it is what it is.


<chuckles>


We are that generation, which should be understood quite differently than what was as human beings refer to as a generation. So, in human terms, every generation since Pentecost as been actually seeing these things come to pass.


Never. There are foretellings of things, certainly. But with regard to the things John wrote of, to the things he "saw." yes, they were mostly future at that time, but we have been experiencing them ever since. So in that respect, it is not purely futurist. And that's the issue with both pre- and post-millennialism. John says at the outset of Revelation that all who read and keep his prophecy will be blessed. To be blunt about it, if everything he "sees" and "shows us" is really yet future, then no one since John wrote Revelation can actually be blessed, because none of it applies to them, and that's absurd, really.


Yeah, again, not completely.


Ohhhhhhhhhhh, it can. It certainly can. If God's "steadfast love,... extends to the heavens..," (His) "...faithfulness to the clouds..." (His) "...righteousness is like the mountains of God..." (His) "...judgments are like the great deep..." (Psalm 36), is this not literally true? Does this not in some way describe many very true things about the great, awesome, magnificent God we serve? <smile> So I would say about John's visions. They are magnificent, shocking, and very frightening at time images of very real things.


I very respectfully, but completely, disagree.


With this I agree. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

A lot to go thru, but I'll try my best to answer in order. No, Prophecy doesn't need special treatment or understanding, one should just read them as written w/ three possibilities, they were already fulfilled, they are being fulfilled or they haven't been fulfilled yet. Common sense tells us when we should consider it literal or symbolic. Your examples given about scriptures, let's say seemingly exaggerated are more of the poetic genre than what folks try to call apocalyptic. I disagree, every generation should have had the expectancy that the prophesied events could begin in their lifetime, but only the last will actually experience them to the degree prophesied. Really! Quoting you: "John says at the outset of Revelation that all who read and keep his prophecy will be blessed. To be blunt about it, if everything he "sees" and "shows us" is really yet future, then no one since John wrote Revelation can actually be blessed," I can't believe you messed this up so badly. Folks are blessed for reading it and keeping an eye on for what might come their way throughout the generations. There is absolutely no blessings lost because they didn't come to fruition in their lifetime. For the rest, the page I'm replying to doesn't show the context of what I'm replying to, so I forgot the rest.

 

[PinSeeker]

A lot to go thru, but I'll try my best to answer in order.

<chuckles>

No, Prophecy doesn't need special treatment or understanding...

Who said anything to that effect? Certainly not me. I agree.

...one should just read them as written...

Of course... You misunderstand. Or misconstrue. or something.

w/ three possibilities, they were already fulfilled, they are being fulfilled or they haven't been fulfilled yet.

And the middle one is correct. <smile> And the third one, in the sense that none are completely fulfilled yet, as I have said three times now. Maybe you should ask what I mean by that, yeah? <smile>

Common sense tells us when we should consider it literal or symbolic.

Sure, but the type of literature we're talking about, whatever you want to call it, is heavily, heavily symbolic. But that does not mean the things spoken of do not represent very literal things... they do.

Your examples given about scriptures, let's say seemingly exaggerated are more of the poetic genre than what folks try to call apocalyptic.

Right, the Psalms are poems, sure. You're being too... exacting. You get my point, I'm sure.

I disagree, every generation should have had the expectancy that the prophesied events could begin in their lifetime, but only the last will actually experience them to the degree prophesied.

Disagree. With both assertions.

Really! Quoting you: "John says at the outset of Revelation that all who read and keep his prophecy will be blessed. To be blunt about it, if everything he "sees" and "shows us" is really yet future, then no one since John wrote Revelation can actually be blessed," I can't believe you messed this up so badly.

LOL! If somebody tells me that my favorite football team will win three championships in a row, but not until after I am dead, I'm... not going to be happy about that... <smile>

Folks are blessed for reading it and keeping an eye on for what might come their way throughout the generations.

Well this is right; I agree. But what you're saying ~ maybe without even realizing it ~ is that it was a false blessing of sorts for all those who have died since the first century. Yes, folks are blessed by reading Revelation because, even while all these things are happening all around them, they come to understand Who is really in control of all of history and brings all things to a close according to His plan. Jesus wins. And in Him, we too will win. And then... yeah, this is still yet future... Jesus returns and defeats Satan for good and the New Heaven and New Earth, and heaven is brought down to us, and all things are made new, as God says in Revelation 21. So, through it all, at any given time in this life ~ for anyone from the time John wrote his Revelation up to now and until Jesus returns, we can rest assured of these things, and in Paul's words in Romans 8 "know that God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose" and that "we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us..." and that "neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." This is how we are blessed... along with all those in Christ since John's time...

There is absolutely no blessings lost because they didn't come to fruition in their lifetime.

Hmmm... I agree, but not in the sense in which you are saying this. Most of Revelation should be read in the same context as what Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-14...

"See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Now, maybe you see all this as yet future, too; I hope not... <smile>

Or... like John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. You've read that, right? That's not Scripture, of course, but such a great book. We are all the lead character "Christian," encountering folks like the character "Worldly Wiseman" and falling into "sloughs of despond" throughout our lives... but all the while having been released from our burden and headed toward the "Celestial City"... <smile>

For the rest, the page I'm replying to doesn't show the context of what I'm replying to, so I forgot the rest.

<chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

 

[Luther7]

Your christ on a throne in Jerusalem will be the future (Man of Sin/The Beast) proclaiming to be God Jesus returned to earth, and the false teachings of Millennialism are paving his way for acceptance

EXACTLY. We cannot change the plan but God wants those with "eyes to see" to warn as many professing Christians as we can about this strong delusion they are under because of Satan's helpers, the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.

 

[Davy]

Are they though? or could it be the world of Christandom that was greatly martyred and persecuted between 100-300ad. Those spoken of in Foxe's Book of Martyrs. We know the GT spoken of by Christ will last more than the ten days of Rev.2:10, but that doesn't mean the GT will be the only period of persecution and martyrdom, just the largest since the history of the church.

Yes, Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia are still in effect today for ALL... Churches. Those original geographic areas of those Churches formed a circle pattern, which can represent completeness.

But the main sign given with them is how two of those seven Churches represent Christ's "very elect" that go through the coming "great tribulation". You obviously haven't picked up on that point yet. And the "great tribulation" doesn't happen until the last generation on earth, the generation that will SEE Christ coming in the clouds.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia are still in effect today for ALL... Churches. Those original geographic areas of those Churches formed a circle pattern, which can represent completeness.

Agree completely. We can take heed of all the messages to the churches in Revelation 1-4, because we can all be encouraged and/or warned and/or fall into these pitfalls in the same ways as all seven churches. The belief that we are in the time of the sixth or seventh church is... bad. <smile>

But the main sign given with them is how two of those seven Churches represent Christ's "very elect" that go through the coming "great tribulation".

Oh boy. Davy goin' giv'-it-to-me-now...

<smile>

Uh, yes, but we are in the time of tribulation. Now. Maybe not yet "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now," but we are in the time of tribulation now, and that tribulation will be ramped up significantly near the end of the age, just as Jesus says there in Matthew 24.

You obviously haven't picked up on that point yet. And the "great tribulation" doesn't happen until the last generation on earth...

We are the last generation. But not in the sense of what we think of as a generation... 25 years or so. This last generation began with Jesus's resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. And, as Jesus says, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (wars and rumors of wars, nation will rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom, famines and earthquakes in various places... These things have been happening for quite a long time now... In Matthew 24, what Jesus is saying here is layered... an immediate fulfillment (the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and ~ and ~ many subsequent fulfillments over the course of time between His time on earth and His return.

...the generation that will SEE Christ coming in the clouds.

Ugh. Christ will bring all His deceased saints with Him when He returns. <smile> Many of them will have been part of this last generation, though, when they were alive in this life...

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Trekson]

<chuckles>


Who said anything to that effect? Certainly not me. I agree.


Of course... You misunderstand. Or misconstrue. or something.


And the middle one is correct. <smile> And the third one, in the sense that none are completely fulfilled yet, as I have said three times now. Maybe you should ask what I mean by that, yeah? <smile>


Sure, but the type of literature we're talking about, whatever you want to call it, is heavily, heavily symbolic. But that does not mean the things spoken of do not represent very literal things... they do.


Right, the Psalms are poems, sure. You're being too... exacting. You get my point, I'm sure.


Disagree. With both assertions.


LOL! If somebody tells me that my favorite football team will win three championships in a row, but not until after I am dead, I'm... not going to be happy about that... <smile>


Well this is right; I agree. But what you're saying ~ maybe without even realizing it ~ is that it was a false blessing of sorts for all those who have died since the first century. Yes, folks are blessed by reading Revelation because, even while all these things are happening all around them, they come to understand Who is really in control of all of history and brings all things to a close according to His plan. Jesus wins. And in Him, we too will win. And then... yeah, this is still yet future... Jesus returns and defeats Satan for good and the New Heaven and New Earth, and heaven is brought down to us, and all things are made new, as God says in Revelation 21. So, through it all, at any given time in this life ~ for anyone from the time John wrote his Revelation up to now and until Jesus returns, we can rest assured of these things, and in Paul's words in Romans 8 "know that God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose" and that "we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us..." and that "neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." This is how we are blessed... along with all those in Christ since John's time...


Hmmm... I agree, but not in the sense in which you are saying this. Most of Revelation should be read in the same context as what Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-14...

"See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Now, maybe you see all this as yet future, too; I hope not... <smile>

Or... like John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. You've read that, right? That's not Scripture, of course, but such a great book. We are all the lead character "Christian," encountering folks like the character "Worldly Wiseman" and falling into "sloughs of despond" throughout our lives... but all the while having been released from our burden and headed toward the "Celestial City"... <smile>


<chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

You believe many of them are symbolic and I feel the vast majority is literal, so perhaps you could offer example from Rev. and how you distinguish them from being literal. I do agree w/ some of Rev. using symbolism, but when it does it is usually explained somewhere else in the context. If someone reads the book of Rev., understands it and starts to do what it says and then dies a week later, they will get the exact same amount of blessing as those who will actually, live thru it. I agree about Matt. 24 and yes all that is still future. The church did experience all those things for the first 300 yrs. or so and many still are but the GT is a specific event against the church and it will dwarf the holocaust in severity and most likely in a shorter period of time.

 

[Trekson]

Yes, Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia are still in effect today for ALL... Churches. Those original geographic areas of those Churches formed a circle pattern, which can represent completeness.

But the main sign given with them is how two of those seven Churches represent Christ's "very elect" that go through the coming "great tribulation". You obviously haven't picked up on that point yet. And the "great tribulation" doesn't happen until the last generation on earth, the generation that will SEE Christ coming in the clouds.

The messages in general, no, the promises, yes and I am aware the last generation will experience the actual GT but don't deny that the folks throughout the centuries that have given their lives for Christ didn't go thru their own personal little GT.

 

[PinSeeker]

You believe many of them are symbolic and I feel the vast majority is literal…

That’s been clear from the outset. However, as I’ve said many times now, just because the symbolism in Revelation (and other like parts of God’s Word) is so prevalent and heavily used does not mean that real, literal… things… cannot be or are not to be seen and understood in reading it; quite the opposite is true. So really, what you and I have is a differing understanding of the literal rather than, well, how you are framing it.

so perhaps you could offer example from Rev. and how you distinguish them from being literal.

Well, yet again… <smile> …I don’t “distinguish them from being literal,” really; the literalness is to be understood in a different sense as that of a… and I’m just making a point here (again)… Dick and Jane first grade primer. John’s Revelation should not be read in such a wooden manner, and that should be evident from the text itself. This is the apostle John writing here, as you well know, and his style of writing in Revelation is starkly, even radically different from his gospel or any of his epistles.

But yeah, “offer example from Rev. and how you distinguish them”…. That’s very fair. And by the same token, perhaps you could offer an example or two of your idea(s) concerning its/their literalness. I really think the latter would be more profitable.

I do agree w/ some of Rev. using symbolism, but when it does it is usually explained somewhere else in the context.

Not disagreeing, but… an example or two here would be nice…

If someone reads the book of Rev., understands it and starts to do what it says and then dies a week later, they will get the exact same amount of blessing as those who will actually, live thru it.

Agree, but you’re talking about something different here than what I was saying. If one reads Revelation and sees the tings described as still yet future and something that doesn’t apply in the present, the blessing that he or she is conscious of receiving is at the very least diminished in his or her own mind. It’s something like, “Well, these things are not happening right now and may never occur in my lifetime, so I really don’t see and blessing for my heart or real, prescient encouragement in this right now.” No, of course; the Lord is here with us now, in the midst of our tribulation, just as He said He would be (Matthew 28:20), walking with us through it all and delivering us, right now. In this way, despite our present circumstances, we are comforted and blessed.

I agree about Matt. 24 and yes all that is still future.

No it’s not… <smile> “…many will come in (Jesus’s) name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray… hear of wars and rumors of wars…” Surely you would acknowledge those things having occurred many, many times over the two thousand years plus since Jesus uttered those words… Surely.

Which brings up something else… Feel free to clarify if this is not the case, but at least many if not most or all the examples either one of us offers you will see one and only one still yet future iteration of, while I will see those same things as having many, many iterations which are themselves past, present, and future.

Now, I’m not avoiding, or deflecting, or being coy in any way, but i really think it’s on you to offer an example or two. But here’s one from me:

There is not one still yet future antichrist. As John himself says, “…it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18).

And this speaks to both my points above, you see. But now if ~ and I don’t think you do, but if ~ you understand the Antichrist to be Satan himself, then I will agree… he is a counterfeiter, impersonating Christ… well, for a long, long time now, so not still yet future only…

The church did experience all those things for the first 300 yrs. or so …

And still are.

and many still are …

All. Unless you mean Christ’s church, in which case I would say, rather, that it ~ it ~ still is. Jesus did say, as you know, I’m sure, “…in this life you will have tribulation…”

but the GT is a specific event against the church and it will dwarf the holocaust in severity and most likely in a shorter period of time.

Hm. Well, again, I’m not disagreeing, really, so… maybe… <smile> …but it will be… really bad, and will look to those in Christ’s church still alive ~ I believe, anyway ~ that all is completely lost. What we do know is what happens in the end (Christ Himself wins, and we in and through Him… “we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us… (nothing) in all creation… will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” …He will deliver us) and that the time will be cut short for the sake of God’s elect.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Trekson]

That’s been clear from the outset. However, as I’ve said many times now, just because the symbolism in Revelation (and other like parts of God’s Word) is so prevalent and heavily used does not mean that real, literal… things… cannot be or are not to be seen and understood in reading it; quite the opposite is true. So really, what you and I have is a differing understanding of the literal rather than, well, how you are framing it.


Well, yet again… <smile> …I don’t “distinguish them from being literal,” really; the literalness is to be understood in a different sense as that of a… and I’m just making a point here (again)… Dick and Jane first grade primer. John’s Revelation should not be read in such a wooden manner, and that should be evident from the text itself. This is the apostle John writing here, as you well know, and his style of writing in Revelation is starkly, even radically different from his gospel or any of his epistles.

But yeah, “offer example from Rev. and how you distinguish them”…. That’s very fair. And by the same token, perhaps you could offer an example or two of your idea(s) concerning its/their literalness. I really think the latter would be more profitable.


Not disagreeing, but… an example or two here would be nice…


Agree, but you’re talking about something different here than what I was saying. If one reads Revelation and sees the tings described as still yet future and something that doesn’t apply in the present, the blessing that he or she is conscious of receiving is at the very least diminished in his or her own mind. It’s something like, “Well, these things are not happening right now and may never occur in my lifetime, so I really don’t see and blessing for my heart or real, prescient encouragement in this right now.” No, of course; the Lord is here with us now, in the midst of our tribulation, just as He said He would be (Matthew 28:20), walking with us through it all and delivering us, right now. In this way, despite our present circumstances, we are comforted and blessed.


No it’s not… <smile> “…many will come in (Jesus’s) name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray… hear of wars and rumors of wars…” Surely you would acknowledge those things having occurred many, many times over the two thousand years plus since Jesus uttered those words… Surely.

Which brings up something else… Feel free to clarify if this is not the case, but at least many if not most or all the examples either one of us offers you will see one and only one still yet future iteration of, while I will see those same things as having many, many iterations which are themselves past, present, and future.

Now, I’m not avoiding, or deflecting, or being coy in any way, but i really think it’s on you to offer an example or two. But here’s one from me:

There is not one still yet future antichrist. As John himself says, “…it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18).

And this speaks to both my points above, you see. But now if ~ and I don’t think you do, but if ~ you understand the Antichrist to be Satan himself, then I will agree… he is a counterfeiter, impersonating Christ… well, for a long, long time now, so not still yet future only…


And still are.


All. Unless you mean Christ’s church, in which case I would say, rather, that it ~ it ~ still is. Jesus did say, as you know, I’m sure, “…in this life you will have tribulation…”


Hm. Well, again, I’m not disagreeing, really, so… maybe… <smile> …but it will be… really bad, and will look to those in Christ’s church still alive ~ I believe, anyway ~ that all is completely lost. What we do know is what happens in the end (Christ Himself wins, and we in and through Him… “we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us… (nothing) in all creation… will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” …He will deliver us) and that the time will be cut short for the sake of God’s elect.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Trekson]

Your Quote: Not disagreeing, but… an example or two here would be nice…

My answer: Rev. 1:12, 16 explained in vs. 20. Rev. 13:1 explained in Rev. 17:8-12.

Your quote: Agree, but you’re talking about something different here than what I was saying. If one reads Revelation and sees the things described as still yet future and something that doesn’t apply in the present, the blessing that he or she is conscious of receiving is at the very least diminished in his or her own mind. It’s something like, “Well, these things are not happening right now and may never occur in my lifetime, so I really don’t see and blessing for my heart or real, prescient encouragement in this right now.”

My answer: I believe the blessing won’t be rec’d until the Bema seat judgment of Christ.

Your quote: Which brings up something else… Feel free to clarify if this is not the case, but at least many if not most or all the examples either one of us offers you will see one and only one still yet future iteration of, while I will see those same things as having many, many iterations which are themselves past, present, and future.

My answer: Yes, churches and individuals have experienced and heard many of these things throughout the world but that doesn’t make them fulfillments. There will come a time, if one listens to the news, it could soon, that wars and rumors of wars are more of a realistic threat now, then it would have been in John’s day, simply because of the internet and TV. The thing many fail to understand like the vs. you quoted, “will have trials and tribulations”. Most folks take that and compare it to day to day stuff like, “my donkey broke his ankle, now I have to walk to work.” or, “There I am using my favorite washing rock and the darn thing split in half on me, now I have to find another washing rock”. However, their daily struggles were much more severe, like facing being kicked out of town, being homeless w/o any personal belongings, being beaten, whipped, baked, fried, boiled, imprisoned, fed to the lions, crucified, the list could go on, but it was “their” day to day reality, so yes some have experienced these things throughout history but never on the global scale the GT will be.

Your quote: Now, I’m not avoiding, or deflecting, or being coy in any way, but i really think it’s on you to offer an example or two. But here’s one from me: There is not one still yet future antichrist. As John himself says, “…it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18).

My answer: Now read that verse again. “that antichrist is coming” = a singular person. “Many antichrists” = all those who reject Christ throughout history but that still doesn’t distract from the several prophecies that describe him as a person.

Your quote: And this speaks to both my points above, you see. But now if ~ and I don’t think you do, but if ~ you understand the Antichrist to be Satan himself, then I will agree… he is a counterfeiter, impersonating Christ… well, for a long, long time now, so not still yet future only…

My answer: Not quite in the beginning. Imo, The a/c is a human being, a seemingly good guy that will be able to be accepted as Israel’s faux messiah. When he is killed and brought back to life, I believe he will be possessed by satan, aka the dragon. The FP will be human as well.

Your quote: Hm. Well, again, I’m not disagreeing, really, so… maybe… <smile> …but it will be… really bad, and will look to those in Christ’s church still alive ~ I believe, anyway ~ that all is completely lost. What we do know is what happens in the end (Christ Himself wins, and we in and through Him… “we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us… (nothing) in all creation… will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” …He will deliver us) and that the time will be cut short for the sake of God’s elect.

My answer: Consider this, Dan. 12:12, “Blessed is he that waiteth for the 1335th day…”. Titus 2:13 - “ Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Imo, the blessed hope isn’t the 2nd coming in general, it will be the rapture at the time when the church will be looking for and hoping for it the most. Lk. 21:28 - “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” No, we won’t know exactly when the 1335th day will be because no one will know exactly when day 1 occurs.

 

[Bladerunner]

Brethren in Christ, be careful of listening to the 'soothsayers' that come here to confuse about the order of events written in the Ezekiel 37, 38, and 39 Chapters.

God said He made Ezekiel a prophet to the "house of Israel", which means the ten scattered tribes of Israel at that time who were captive by the Assyrians just north of Babylon, and in the lands of the Medes. God sent Ezekiel to those ten tribes.

The Ezekiel 37 Chapter covers how God would eventually wake up the ten tribes spiritually, which is what the dry bones example is about. The Chapter also includes when God will put the two separate houses of Israel back together into one nation that He separated back in Solomon's day (1 KIngs 11 forward). That includes their gathering out of the nations back to the holy lands, with "one shepherd" (Jesus) over them, and David as their king. All that is to happen immediately PRIOR to Christ's Millennium reign with His elect.

The timeline of the Ezekiel 38 Chapter then goes backwards in time to just before the coming "great tribulation" and then to the end of the tribulation just prior to Christ's return. Those nations God showed Ezekiel there will be joined against God's people, of both ISRAELS, the Israel in the west represented by the Christian nations ("house of Israel", stick of Joseph), and the middle east nation of Israel ("house of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea, the Jews). The battle upon the western "house of Israel" may likely be from Russia on the U.S. border of Alaska. God mentions that battle will take place away from any city. God says when this happens, His people of the scattered ten tribe "house of Israel" will then know why He scattered them, and who they really are, and how He had cast them off for a time (see Book of Hosea).

Ezekiel 39 continues this subject about the destruction of those nations allied with Gog and Magog (old Rus or Rosh = Russia). The burying place for those of Israel's enemies destroyed by God will there be called the Valley of Hamon-gog. God is Who will do this destruction, not us. That way the peoples of the earth will KNOW Who He is, and that it was by HIS Hand and not by any other, that He did the destruction of Israel's enemies of both 'houses'. This 39th Chapter timeline then moves to the gathering of all 12 tribes back together into one nation again in the holy land, and how they will know God.

Then Ezekiel 40 begins description of Christ's future Millennial 'sanctuary' on earth where He and His elect will reign from with the "rod of iron" over the unsaved nations that was promised Him in Psalms 2. This description in detail, continues all the way to the end of the Book of Ezekiel, and the last phrase of the last verse is "The LORD is there," or Yehovah Shammah.

of course it does. actually before the second half of Daniel's 70th week.

 

[PinSeeker]

Rev. 1:12, 16 explained in vs. 20. Rev. 13:1 explained in Rev. 17:8-12.

Sure. But I disagree with you specifically with regard to how you framed what you said, particularly the word ‘usually’ here: “I do agree w/ some of Rev. using symbolism, but when it does it is usually explained somewhere else in the context.”

I believe the blessing won’t be rec’d until the Bema seat judgment of Christ.

Hm. Well okay, then. <smile> I say that’s quite contrary to the text. But… okay. <smile>

…churches and individuals have experienced and heard many of these things throughout the world but that doesn’t make them fulfillments.

Okay, we very much disagree on that, too. <smile>

There will come a time, if one listens to the news, it could soon, that wars and rumors of wars are more of a realistic threat now, then it would have been in John’s day, simply because of the internet and TV.

They were a thing then and now and at all points in between. Regardless of technological advances. <smile>

The thing many fail to understand like the vs. you quoted, “will have trials and tribulations”. Most folks take that and compare it to day to day stuff like, “my donkey broke his ankle, now I have to walk to work.” or, “There I am using my favorite washing rock and the darn thing split in half on me, now I have to find another washing rock”. However, their daily struggles were much more severe, like facing being kicked out of town, being homeless w/o any personal belongings, being beaten, whipped, baked, fried, boiled, imprisoned, fed to the lions, crucified, the list could go on, but it was “their” day to day reality, so yes some have experienced these things throughout history but never on the global scale the GT will be

Trials and tribulations are what they are, regardless of any timeframe. Life is hard. God told Adam and Eve that… quite some time ago…<smile>

Now, I did, in a certain sense, agree with you concerning what you think of as the Great Tribulation… There will be a great ramp-up in tribulation near and at the time of the end… “such has never been seen“… but I disagree that it will be a different time altogether, in the sense of some kind of complete separation. It will be... sort of in the same sense as Jesus's public ministry not beginning until the last two or three years of His approximately 33 years of earthly life; He didn't all of a sudden start being God at age 30, right? <smile>

Now read that verse again.

<chuckles>

“that antichrist is coming” = a singular person. “Many antichrists” = all those who reject Christ throughout history but that still doesn’t distract from the several prophecies that describe him as a person.

Solomon, in Proverbs, depicts wisdom as a… very desirable… woman. Is wisdom actually a woman, Trekson? I know several very wise women, one in particular being my wife, but she is not wisdom. Wisdom is certainly desirable, especially Godly wisdom, but wisdom is not a person. Now, that’s a bit different thing, but the example serves. As I said, Satan is the anti-Christ (the hyphenation, italicization, and capitalization is indicative there, I’m using those devices very purposefully) and all unbelievers are the antichrists among us… because they are of their father the devil (see John 8:44), and do his will. John later expounds in 1 John 4:3, “every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.”

The a/c is a human being, a seemingly good guy…

Right, but not just one, and they have been among us for… quite some time now… <smile>. See above.

that will be able to be accepted as Israel’s faux messiah. When he is killed and brought back to life, I believe he will be possessed by satan, aka the dragon. The FP will be human as well.

Hm. Yes, I know. I disagree. <smile>

Consider this, Dan. 12:12, “Blessed is he that waiteth for the 1335th day…”. Titus 2:13 - “ Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Imo, the blessed hope isn’t the 2nd coming in general, it will be the rapture at the time when the church will be looking for and hoping for it the most. Lk. 21:28 - “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” No, we won’t know exactly when the 1335th day will be because no one will know exactly when day 1 occurs.

Ahh, numerology in the Bible… Again, this understanding is far too wooden. I’m just going to leave it at that. Unless you’re curious, maybe… <smile>

And… no “rapture”… Jesus never promises ~ or even hints that He will or even might ~ remove us from trouble. He does, however, promise over and over again, throughout Scripture, to walk with us, protect us, and deliver us through it. As I said, He is with us now, even to the end of the age (Matthew 28:20), just as He said He would be. And one great day, He will return, just as He promised.

Do you not know how to use the quote feature on this board, Trekson? <chuckles>

Anyway, yeah, thanks for your thoughts.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Trekson]

Sure. But I disagree with you specifically with regard to how you framed what you said, particularly the word ‘usually’ here: “I do agree w/ some of Rev. using symbolism, but when it does it is usually explained somewhere else in the context.”


Hm. Well okay, then. <smile> I say that’s quite contrary to the text. But… okay. <smile>

Okay, we very much disagree on that, too. <smile>


They were a thing than and now and at all points in between. Regardless of technological advances. <smile>


Trials and tribulations are what they are,regardless of any timeframe. Life is hard. God told Adam and Eve that… quite some time ago…The thing many fail to understand like the vs. you quoted, “will have trials and tribulations”. Most folks take that and compare it to day to day stuff like, “my donkey broke his ankle, now I have to walk to work.” or, “There I am using my favorite washing rock and the darn thing split in half on me, now I have to find another washing rock”. However, their daily struggles were much more severe, like facing being kicked out of town, being homeless w/o any personal belongings, being beaten, whipped, baked, fried, boiled, imprisoned, fed to the lions, crucified, the list could go on, but it was “their” day to day reality, so yes some have experienced these things throughout history but never on the global scale the GT will be



Do you not know how to use the quote feature on this board, Trekson? <chuckles>

Anyway, yeah, thanks for your thoughts. TW comments:

It seems to be apparent that I don't