Pictures of Two Comings

[Trekson]

I don't know what you understand by the word "rapture" but IMO you are correct about the rest - and you will find many here who agree with you.

1. Jesus did not tell us that He will return to gather His elect by returning to the earth:

"They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:30b-31).

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (I Thessalonians 4:16-18 [RLT])

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7).

You have not yet understood what this verse below implies:



You have misunderstood what Jesus was saying because you did not hear the rest of what He said at that very same time

- but no need to be embarrassed - just as we are all novice disciples, not hearing ALL He said, even the apostles were novice disciples at the time, not always hearing ALL He said:

John 13
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Still speaking in the same context, we read in John 14:4 that Jesus also said,

"And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Jesus had already told them that wither He goes, they cannot come. Now He tells them that they nevertheless know where He is going, and the way to where He is going - and because it was before He had died, risen again, and before the Holy Spirit had come to the house of God, His disciples were still confused:

"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" (John 14:5).

Compare:

(a) As I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

(b) Whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

(c) Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

To Thomas's question, Jesus replied:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

Keep comparing the verses, because further on down in the passage - and still in the same context of speaking to His disciples about His departure - Jesus tells those who believe in Him and belong to Him:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Take a look at the Greek word used in John 14:2, because the same word is used again further on down in the same passage - but has been translated using a different English word:

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions [G3438 mone]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

G3438: mone. from 3306; a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place):--abode, mansion.

G3306: meno: a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

John 14
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live [zao], ye shall live [zao] also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode [G3438 mone] with him.

G3438: mone. from 3306; a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place):--abode, mansion.

G3306: meno: a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

What Jesus was telling them was that THEY were to become His Father's house (in which there are many mansions) - because HE was going to be sending the Holy Spirit down on God's house - and it happened on the Day of Pentecost.

What Jesus had already said was:

"In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

"As I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you."

"And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode [G3438 mone] with him.

Jesus is talking about the Temple (house) of God which Christ inhabits, by His Spirit:

As Paul tells those who BELIEVE Jesus and His words: each one who has the Spirit of Christ dwelling in Him is the Temple (house) of God (Ephesians 2:19-22); and Peter tells us that together we are the living stones who form the one Temple of God (1 Peter 2:5).

Indeed there are many mansions in the house of God, and there is room for each one who believes in Jesus and His gospel

- and in His Revelation Jesus allowed His apostle John to see what will also be - in a fuller and complete sense following the (bodily) return of Christ and the (bodily) resurrection of the dead in Christ:

"And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God." (Revelation 21:3).

I will get to the rest of your post in my next post - because there you have made a wrong assumption too - not hearing all the words of scripture.

No offense, but I'm afraid you have made the wrong assumption. In John 13 Jesus wasn't talking about heaven, he was talking about death. Where did Christ go? Not heaven until after the ascension. 1 Pet. 3: 19-20 - "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. What did Christ after his resurrection? John 20:17a - "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:" In John 14, Christ was talking about eternity and the rapture although their souls are already there. In the same context, (the Last Supper) Jesus was speaking of two different times, w/ two different destinations.

 

[Trekson]

Yes.

He will have appeared in the clouds, and the elect dead will be raised, and the rest who are still alive will be raptured - as Paul stated.
(In Revelation 19 they are the saints who are coming down with Him - His army in white garments - for the battle of Armageddon).

- but did you not HEAR the rest of what Jesus said?

Apparently you did not.

He said,

"The seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev 16:17; Rev21:6-7).

If you have a thousand years in between the return of Christ and the new heavens and new earth added to scripture, you are not going to hear what scripture is saying - and you are not going to understand why the bride of Christ is mentioned as the army coming down with Christ in Revelation 19 and she is mentioned again in Revelation 21 - each time as having been prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If you have a thousand years in between the return of Christ and the new heavens and new earth added to scripture, it means that for now, in this present time, you cannot hear ALL the words of scripture (for example the words of Jesus when He says):

"It is done!"

Rev. 16:17 "It is done" is speaking only about God's wrath contained in the vials, see vs. 1. This does "not" connect w/ Rev. 21:6-7 in any way. Scripture never actually calls the 'church" the bride of Christ, but that's a whole 'nother topic. BTW, What is the metaphor of the bride called? What does the church have in common w/ something called the NJ?

 

[Trekson]

The problem in all of this is that a lot of Christians believe that revelation chapter 19 is the second coming and it’s not. This chapter only shows what Jesus is doing up in heaven there is no mention of Jesus coming to the earth

The descriptions given in Rev. 19:15-19 can only occur on earth! The angel army is following him somewhere, vs. 14.

 

[Marty fox]

The descriptions given in Rev. 19:15-19 can only occur on earth! The angel army is following him somewhere, vs. 14.

It’s not a literal battle but a symbolic vision of Jesus defeating all of His enemies over all time with the sword of His mouth His word.

There is no mention of Jesus or the saints coming to the earth He doesn’t need too to defeat His enemies.

If literal how will Jesus rule over the nations with a rod of iron if every person free and slave great and small dead and are already eaten by the birds?


If literal how will the beast and his armies gatherEd for battle against Jesus if no one knows when the second coming is?

 

[Douggg]

You have your way of looking at it and I have mine. The three frogs are different demonic spirits then the three you mentioned.

The three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouths of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon (Satan), Revelation 16:13

If you wish to say that the un-clean spirits are demonic spirits, I don't have a problem with that. But it will the by the influence of the beast, the false prophet, and Satan, that will convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, that is the reality, but the armies of earth don't know that. They think they are gathering on their own for a different reason.

The text of Revelation 19:19 says that the reason they gather is to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven. They will clearly have the reason of seeing the sign of the Son of man in heaven, as a threat to their existence.

They will gather their armies for 45 days, once they see the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

 

[Trekson]

It’s not a literal battle but a symbolic vision of Jesus defeating all of His enemies over all time with the sword of His mouth His word.

There is no mention of Jesus or the saints coming to the earth He doesn’t need too to defeat His enemies.

If literal how will Jesus rule over the nations with a rod of iron if every person free and slave great and small dead and are already eaten by the birds?


If literal how will the beast and his armies gatherEd for battle against Jesus if no one knows when the second coming is?

No, it is quite literal and not symbolic in any way. I showed you how the destination of Christ is obviously in the context of Rev. 19. They are only eating the carcasses from Armageddon. This before the sheep and goat judgement. You're right, they don't know they will end up battling against Christ. They are gathered by the three frog spirits (Rev. 16:13-14) to fight the a/c who is headquartered in Jerusalem, Israel. While they are fighting that battle, they will see Christ coming and they will all unite to battle against Christ.

 

[Trekson]

The three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouths of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon (Satan), Revelation 16:13

If you wish to say that the un-clean spirits are demonic spirits, I don't have a problem with that. But it will the by the influence of the beast, the false prophet, and Satan, that will convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Not quite, Douggg, because the armies of the north, west and south are coming to do battle 'against" the beast, false prophet and dragon where they are headquartered in Jerusalem. They don't know, while they are gathering for that war, that Christ is coming, until they all see Him, then they all unite forces to fight against Christ and His angel army.

 

[Douggg]

Not quite, Douggg, because the armies of the north, west and south are coming to do battle 'against" the beast, false prophet and dragon where they are headquartered in Jerusalem. They don't know, while they are gathering for that war,

There is no pre-gathering of armies for their attack on the beast. The king of the south attacks the beast in Jerusalem first. Then in reaction to seeing their attack, the king of the north joins the attack on the beast. Then the kings of the east decide to join in on the attack.

It is while their attack is taking place that suddenly the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven. It is then, that they stop attacking the beast, and unite with the beast to gather their armies at Armageddon for the purpose of making war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

 

[Marty fox]

No, it is quite literal and not symbolic in any way. I showed you how the destination of Christ is obviously in the context of Rev. 19. They are only eating the carcasses from Armageddon. This before the sheep and goat judgement. You're right, they don't know they will end up battling against Christ. They are gathered by the three frog spirits (Rev. 16:13-14) to fight the a/c who is headquartered in Jerusalem, Israel. While they are fighting that battle, they will see Christ coming and they will all unite to battle against Christ.

You added a lot into the scriptures.

The battle at Armageddon is in chapter 16 not 19 and it’s the defeat of Babylon the great by the beast

The battle in chapter 19 is the defeat of the beast by Jesus two completely different battles with different participants and different outcomes

There is also no antichrist or temple headquarters in Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation so how can it be literal if they are true?

The text also says that they are gathered to wage war against Jesus so they are are not just there by chance

You also didn’t answer my other question about who will Jesus reign over.

Just an FYI I used to think your way until I was asked questions like this that made me change my view because my view didn’t make sense

 

[Trekson]

There is no pre-gathering of armies for their attack on the beast. The king of the south attacks the beast in Jerusalem first. Then in reaction to seeing their attack, the king of the north joins the attack on the beast. Then the kings of the east decide to join in on the attack.

It is while their attack is taking place that suddenly the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven. It is then, that they stop attacking the beast, and unite with the beast to gather their armies at Armageddon for the purpose of making war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

Rev. 16:13-14 says otherwise. "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Imo, the sigh of the son of man will only occur at the Matt. 24:29-31 rapture event well before this, but not pre-trib timing.

 

[Trekson]

You added a lot into the scriptures.

The battle at Armageddon is in chapter 16 not 19 and it’s the defeat of Babylon the great by the beast

The battle in chapter 19 is the defeat of the beast by Jesus two completely different battles with different participants and different outcomes

There is also no antichrist or temple headquarters in Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation so how can it be literal if they are true?

The text also says that they are gathered to wage war against Jesus so they are are not just there by chance

You also didn’t answer my other question about who will Jesus reign over.

Just an FYI I used to think your way until I was asked questions like this that made me change my view because my view didn’t make sense

If one doesn't study Daniel first, they won't be able to understand Rev. at all. There is no battle, America will be nuked. Babylon's destruction is spoken of in Rev. 16:19 but it doesn't happen until Rev. 18. Babylon will not be part of Armageddon.

 

[Marty fox]

If one doesn't study Daniel first, they won't be able to understand Rev. at all. There is no battle, America will be nuked. Babylon's destruction is spoken of in Rev. 16:19 but it doesn't happen until Rev. 18. Babylon will not be part of Armageddon.

Actually it happens in chapter 17 but you still didn’t answer my questions

 

[Trekson]

Actually it happens in chapter 17 but you still didn’t answer my questions

Rev. 17 is another mention about what's coming, it's still Rev. 18, temple = Rev. 11:1-2. The a/c is called the beast in Rev.13 and the rider of the white horse from the 1st seal. Jesus will rule over the 1/3 from Zech. 13;8-9 who began their journey to salvation in Zech. 12:10, which may or may not include the 144,000 and those who are accepted as sheep from both Israel and the nations at the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. The criteria for entrance into the millennial era is found in Matt. 25:35-36, 40

 

[Bladerunner]

Well certainly the resurrection/rapture is for believers in Jesus.

View attachment 80917


Jesus's second coming will be to rescue Israel. And to execute judgment on them gathered at Armageddon gathered to make war on Him and His army of heaven.

Rev 20:4 is not martyred saints but rather those who have lived (Gentiles) through Daniel's 70th week. they will be allowed to live in the 1000 (millennium) to come.

 

[Douggg]

Rev. 16:13-14 says otherwise. "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Imo, the sigh of the son of man will only occur at the Matt. 24:29-31 rapture event well before this, but not pre-trib timing.

Revelation 16-14 applies to the gathering at Armageddon, after the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.

The Daniel 11:40-44 attacks on the beast in Jerusalem is before the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.

This is the order...
1. the Daniel 11:40-44 attacks on the beast in Jerusalem.
2. then the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.
3. then the Revelation 16:13-14 gathering at Armageddon to make war on the Son of man.

 

[Douggg]

Imo, the sigh of the son of man will only occur at the Matt. 24:29-31 rapture event well before this, but not pre-trib timing.

The sign of the son of Man appearing in heaven in Matthew 24:30a will be the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:14-17.

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Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture event, but the angels that Jesus will send to gather the Jews scattered in the nations to the land of their forefathers, Israel. Corresponding to Deuteronomy 30:4-5.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 20:4 is not martyred saints but rather those who have lived (Gentiles) through Daniel's 70th week. they will be allowed to live in the 1000 (millennium) to come.

The ones in Revelation 20:4 are resurrected, martyred for refusing to worship the beast, his mage,or take his mark. The first resurrection of the millennium, Revelation 20:5.

 

[Marty fox]

Rev. 17 is another mention about what's coming, it's still Rev. 18, temple = Rev. 11:1-2. The a/c is called the beast in Rev.13 and the rider of the white horse from the 1st seal. Jesus will rule over the 1/3 from Zech. 13;8-9 who began their journey to salvation in Zech. 12:10, which may or may not include the 144,000 and those who are accepted as sheep from both Israel and the nations at the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. The criteria for entrance into the millennial era is found in Matt. 25:35-36, 40

No the antichrist is not the beast.

John is the only person to use the term antichrist in the entire Bible in his epistles and this very same John also wrote the book of revelation


John in his epistles clearly teaches us the the antichrist is a spirit whose purpose is to deny that Jesus came from the Father. John also teaches us that the antichrist is more than one and was already in the world during his time

John also names the beast and the antichrist differently for a reason and he also shows that they have different personalities and purposes

 

[ewq1938]

If literal how will the beast and his armies gatherEd for battle against Jesus if no one knows when the second coming is?

That is not true, plus the 6th vial is why the armies gather there and only armies not every person on the planet as you imply.