Who is Israel?

[rwb]

Nope. That was not the context at all, that everyone is promised the lands in the mid east. Sorry. What promise are we talking about? Jesus's promise I think - 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
Here are a few translations of the passage to get a balanced perspective-

6 This is God's plan. Those who are not Jews will also share in the blessings of God. They also are a part of the body of Jesus Christ. They also will receive the things God has promised in Jesus Christ through the good news.

And this is the secret: that the Gentiles will have their full share with the Jews in all the riches inherited by God’s sons; both are invited to belong to his Church, and all of God’s promises of mighty blessings through Christ apply to them both when they accept the Good News about Christ and what he has done for them.

The gentiles are heirs-in-common, members-in-common of the body, and common participants in what was promised[a] by the Messiah[b] Jesus through the gospel.

The promises of certain land from the Euphrates to the sea are NOT gospel promises! You don't get to lump those old promises of land to Jews in with the promises of Jesus and the gospel.

The promised land of Cannan that Israel was promised was conditional upon the faithfulness of Israel to God alone. Since Israel broke the Covenant they lost the promised land just as God also promised they would. The Lord promised to be with them and commanded them to drive out of the land ALL who were enemies of God and worshipped and served idols. But instead of driving them out through the power of God, they did not drive them out but put them to tribute and did not utterly drive them out. It was only a matter of time, as we shall read that Israel wholly turned away from the LORD God to worship and serve the idols as did those peoples they allowed to dwell with them. God kept His promise to Israel, giving them Cannan, the land of promise, but Israel chose not to drive out all of the enemies, and instead allowed them to become one with them. Instead of obeying God, the slept with the enemies of God, and have paid the price through much tribulation and bloodshed just as God promised they would.

Joshua 24:31 (KJV) And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

Judges 1:21 (KJV) And the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that inhabited Jerusalem; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin in Jerusalem unto this day.

Judges 1:27 (KJV) Neither did Manasseh drive out the inhabitants of Beth-shean and her towns, nor Taanach and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Dor and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Ibleam and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Megiddo and her towns: but the Canaanites would dwell in that land.

Judges 1:28-36 (KJV) And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute, and did not utterly drive them out. Neither did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites that dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwelt in Gezer among them. Neither did Zebulun drive out the inhabitants of Kitron, nor the inhabitants of Nahalol; but the Canaanites dwelt among them, and became tributaries. Neither did Asher drive out the inhabitants of Accho, nor the inhabitants of Zidon, nor of Ahlab, nor of Achzib, nor of Helbah, nor of Aphik, nor of Rehob: But the Asherites dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land: for they did not drive them out. Neither did Naphtali drive out the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh, nor the inhabitants of Beth-anath; but he dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land: nevertheless the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh and of Beth-anath became tributaries unto them. And the Amorites forced the children of Dan into the mountain: for they would not suffer them to come down to the valley: But the Amorites would dwell in mount Heres in Aijalon, and in Shaalbim: yet the hand of the house of Joseph prevailed, so that they became tributaries. And the coast of the Amorites was from the going up to Akrabbim, from the rock, and upward.

Judges 2:1-4 (KJV) And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.

Judges 2:7-15 (KJV) And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnath-heres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.

But you say now that God should go back on His promise and return Israel to the land of promise? I think not! For that matter, why would faithful Christian Jews desire to return to Cannan when the promise of God for ALL believers is that we shall inherit the whole earth?

 

[rwb]

Name a verse where it says God is a liar? Where it says that promises made to Abraham are void? No. What is void is the law as far as saving us goes.

You're claiming only a portion of God's promise to Israel! Why do you ignore the portion of the promise pertaining to what would become of them when they disobeyed God and broke the Covenant God had given exclusively to them?

 

[dad]

They broke the covenant by not keeping their promise - their part of the bargain that it was dependant upon.

The covenant God made with them after He brought them out of Egypt:

"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

"And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste." (Leviticus 26:13-17 & 31-33).

"And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." (Exodus 24:7-8).

Their right to the land was conditional - but they always broke the covenant:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." (Isaiah 24:5).

The NEW covenant God made with them after He brought them out of Egypt:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" (Jeremiah 31:31-32).

Compare:

"And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." (Exodus 24:7-8).

and

"For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

They will never keep their side of the bargain, so no, they do not have the right to dwell in the land.

This is what God says to both Israel and the Jews (Judah) (I doubt you know the difference between Israel and Judah)

New Covenant promises:

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
"
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded." (Ezekiel 36:27-33).

It's talking about what Christ brought about and will bring about following His return - and it's not only talking to the Jews or about the Jews only - whom so many Christians are so obssesed with and about, that they fail to understand.​

"And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God" Did God give your fathers that land? Not mine. " I will also cause you to dwell in the cities" ? God prepared Jew Jerusalem for us. That is not talking about Christians today.
"multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field" Being farmers in the Mis East is not what we have to look forward to as Christians actually. Sure, it coulld be fun as a vacation place or something for some. Our home is in the heavens. (Our rule will be on earth) "O house of Israel. ? That is not the way Jesus refers to us. It is obvious what is being talked about in these verses.

 

[dad]

The promised land of Cannan that Israel was promised was conditional upon the faithfulness of Israel to God alone. Since Israel broke the Covenant they lost the promised land just as God also promised they would. The Lord promised to be with them and commanded them to drive out of the land ALL who were enemies of God and worshipped and served idols. But instead of driving them out through the power of God, they did not drive them out but put them to tribute and did not utterly drive them out. It was only a matter of time, as we shall read that Israel wholly turned away from the LORD God to worship and serve the idols as did those peoples they allowed to dwell with them. God kept His promise to Israel, giving them Cannan, the land of promise, but Israel chose not to drive out all of the enemies, and instead allowed them to become one with them. Instead of obeying God, the slept with the enemies of God, and have paid the price through much tribulation and bloodshed just as God promised they would.


But you say now that God should go back on His promise and return Israel to the land of promise? I think not! For that matter, why would faithful Christian Jews desire to return to Cannan when the promise of God for ALL believers is that we shall inherit the whole earth?

He will do what He says. He will heal them and restore them and be their God and remember their sins no more one day. After they are saved in the end.

 

[dad]

You're claiming only a portion of God's promise to Israel! Why do you ignore the portion of the promise pertaining to what would become of them when they disobeyed God and broke the Covenant God had given exclusively to them?

Because their sins will be washed away (like ours are) by the blood of Jesus. He will have mercy. That was all He was ever waiting for! That is the only defense Israel has. That is their only hope of possessing the land.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, He never restored the saved Jews to the land in 1948 either. When He restores them you'll know about it

Right, and that is certainly not secular Israel. It is not He that rules them

He shall indeed one day. For the saved Jews.
No connection of course to 1948


Again they sure do not say that now, nor does God!

Well many Jews who went back to Israel were saved.

God rules all! He allows Satan rule within God defined boundaries.

1948 was fulfilment of prophecy. Ez. 20:33-38 is going on since then to this day.

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

This has been happening since 1948

 

[dad]

Well many Jews who went back to Israel were saved.

And so would you blame them for the terrorism, depravity and sins of that secular nation? Or do you think that excuses it all? or? God only saves the few survivors of Israel after they all get saved. He does not save unbelievers.

God rules all! He allows Satan rule within God defined boundaries.

1948 was fulfilment of prophecy. Ez. 20:33-38 is going on since then to this day.

He allowed the kingdoms of the world to be in Satan's hand to give to whoever he likes actually. Though God is God, this world is fallen and in sin. There is a specific time He returns to earth and rules here. 1948 was just some unbelievers relocating.

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

Not happening today in Israel obviously.

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch in today's Israel, the rebels rule!

This has been happening since 1948

False. Relocating unbelievers is not God restoring anything.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

nd so would you blame them for the terrorism, depravity and sins of that secular nation? Or do you think that excuses it all? or? God only saves the few survivors of Israel after they all get saved. He does not save unbelievers.

No to both. God saves unbelievers. that is when we come believers!

He allowed the kingdoms of the world to be in Satan's hand to give to whoever he likes actually. Though God is God, this world is fallen and in sin. There is a specific time He returns to earth and rules here. 1948 was just some unbelievers relocating.

You will learn differently. since Nebuchadnezzar we have been living in the time of the Gentiles.

Not happening today in Israel obviously.

well don't tell that to Israel . Today aone they sufferred 200 rockets from Lebanon and rockets and drones from Iran. It is happening, just not according to your or my liking and timetable.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch in today's Israel, the rebels rule!

Just like they did for hundreds of years in the OT when even a cynic like you knows Israel was the promised land. Nothing new and their unbelief does not negate when god says "it SHALL come to pass. I am not saying Israel is a pure nation----yet! but it will be at the end of teh 70th week of Daniel.

False. Relocating unbelievers is not God restoring anything.

You will see how wrong that teaching is. God will show all the covenant believers how they have been lied to.

 

[dad]

No to both. God saves unbelievers. that is when we come believers!

Right, so having some saved people in Israel does not mean God restored or will restore them.

You will learn differently. since Nebuchadnezzar we have been living in the time of the Gentiles.

well don't tell that to Israel . Today aone they sufferred 200 rockets from Lebanon and rockets and drones from Iran. It is happening, just not according to your or my liking and timetable.

One day in one event 2/3 will be killed. Before that wars and persecutions etc plenty more. Nothing gets better until the remnant accept Jesus in the end.

Just like they did for hundreds of years in the OT when even a cynic like you knows Israel was the promised land. Nothing new and their unbelief does not negate when god says "it SHALL come to pass. I am not saying Israel is a pure nation----yet! but it will be at the end of teh 70th week of Daniel.

What is left of it, yes. Belief in Jesus is what makes anyone pure.

You will see how wrong that teaching is. God will show all the covenant believers how they have been lied to.

There can be no error in knowing that God only will restore a saved Israel in the end. Any claims that He restored them already are premature and false. When He does, they will be holy and He will be their God. ( I might add that they will not be mass murdering their neighbors)

 

[rwb]

He will do what He says. He will heal them and restore them and be their God and remember their sins no more one day. After they are saved in the end.

Only the Jewish remnant according to election by grace through faith will be remembered by God as Jews believe on Christ, entering into the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ in them. The rest, like Jews of Old shall die in unbelief, without a Savior to make atonement for their sins.

 

[rwb]

Because their sins will be washed away (like ours are) by the blood of Jesus. He will have mercy. That was all He was ever waiting for! That is the only defense Israel has. That is their only hope of possessing the land.

Those Jews who become saved through the blood of Christ are not looking to inherit again the land of Cannan they lost through disobedience. They are looking, like every believing Gentile with them to inherit the whole earth that shall be made new.

 

[dad]

Only the Jewish remnant according to election by grace through faith will be remembered by God as Jews believe on Christ, entering into the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ in them. The rest, like Jews of Old shall die in unbelief, without a Savior to make atonement for their sins.

Can't argue with that. However, since all that little remnant in the end get saved, we can still say all Israel will be saved.

 

[dad]

Those Jews who become saved through the blood of Christ are not looking to inherit again the land of Cannan they lost through disobedience. They are looking, like every believing Gentile with them to inherit the whole earth that shall be made new.

Says who? Did you ask them? No. Because they are not even here now. Does not God know what He is doing? Do you think He has it all wrong giving that land and restoring the believing remnant in the end as promised?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The new earth is not here till, as the bible says clearly after the thousand years. Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, --

Rev 21:21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea

I didn't say otherwise. You should educate yourself about what others believe so that you don't waste time with strawman arguments like this. I'm an amillennialist who believes that the thousand years are not a literal thousand years and do not follow Christ's return. So, I believe that Jesus will return after the thousand year and Satan's little season and that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can't argue with that. However, since all that little remnant in the end get saved, we can still say all Israel will be saved.

How can you say that when all the Israelites who are not part of the remnant will not be saved? Or are you talking about spiritual Israel and that you believe spiritual Israel only consists of believers who are physical descendants of national Israel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He will do what He says. He will heal them and restore them and be their God and remember their sins no more one day. After they are saved in the end.

Saved in the end? That's a doctrine of demons. Now is the time and today is the day of salvation. Not "in the end". You are promoting the idea that Jews should just hope that they are around "in the end" so that they can be saved. Nonsense! They can be saved TODAY. NOW!

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. 2 For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

[dad]

I didn't say otherwise. You should educate yourself about what others believe so that you don't waste time with strawman arguments like this. I'm an amillennialist who believes that the thousand years are not a literal thousand years and do not follow Christ's return. So, I believe that Jesus will return after the thousand year and Satan's little season and that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at that point.

No offense but I don't really care what you believe. The bible is clear

 

[dad]

How can you say that when all the Israelites who are not part of the remnant will not be saved?

Never said that. Many were saved in Jesus' day, and since, and today etc. Israel, however is an unbelieving nation.

Or are you talking about spiritual Israel and that you believe spiritual Israel only consists of believers who are physical descendants of national Israel?

In regards to the survivors alive in the end who are all that is left of Israel who all get saved, THAT will be the Israel God restores.

 

[dad]

Saved in the end? That's a doctrine of demons.

No it is bible 101 actually, and so obvious it is not worth debating the point. They will look on Him who they have pierced and mourn as for an only son and etc etc.

Now is the time and today is the day of salvation.

Yet untold billions or millions will be saved in the last years.

Not "in the end". You are promoting the idea that Jews should just hope that they are around "in the end" so that they can be saved. Nonsense! They can be saved TODAY. NOW!

No, if they got save today God would destroy all their enemies and restore them etc. As it stands, prophesy tells us when they come to belief. It is not 'now' by the way.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. 2 For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Now is the day all should get saved. Too bad they won't though, eh?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No offense but I don't really care what you believe.

To be clear, I don't really care what you believe, either. It's just too bad that you believe wrongly a lot of the time.

The bible is clear

Yes, it is. But, you are not.