Who is Israel?

[Spiritual Israelite]

No it is bible 101 actually, and so obvious it is not worth debating the point. They will look on Him who they have pierced and mourn as for an only son and etc etc.

Yet untold billions or millions will be saved in the last years.

That blatantly contradicts what scripture indicates that things will be like in the last years before Christ returns. Jesus said it will be like the days of Noah before the flood (Matthew 24:37-39).

Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith and that wickedness will no longer be restrained during the time preceding Christ's return, not mass conversions.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Jesus indicated that things will be so bad spiritually at the time He comes again that He questioned whether He would find faith on the earth at that time. But, you say "untold billions or millions will be saved in the last years"? Why do you not believe what Jesus and Paul taught about the time before Jesus returns?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Your answer to Jesus's question is "Yes, He will find untold billions or millions who have been saved in recent years, plus all those who were saved before that". Despite Jesus Himself saying it will be like the days of Noah before He comes. That doesn't mean only 8 people in the world will be saved, but the fact that there will be a mass falling away from the faith and wickedness will become unrestrained in the time before Jesus comes does not support the idea of untold billions or millions being saved during that time.

No, if they got save today God would destroy all their enemies and restore them etc. As it stands, prophesy tells us when they come to belief. It is not 'now' by the way.

Now is the day all should get saved. Too bad they won't though, eh?

You say they can't be saved now, but will get saved in the end, but that is not true. Jews have been getting saved every day for the past almost 2,000 years. Their salvation has not been postponed, as you imagine. They don't have to wait until the end to get saved. It will be too late at that point for any of them who do not believe and are alive at that point. Jesus will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers, Jew or Gentile, on the day that He comes again (2 Thess 1:7-9).

 

[dad]

To be clear, I don't really care what you believe, either. It's just too bad that you believe wrongly a lot of the time.


Yes, it is. But, you are not.

You have made no case. The prophesies about Israel being restored and saved are clear. Not sure why you offer false bravado

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have made no case. The prophesies about Israel being restored and saved are clear. Not sure why you offer false bravado

I made a strong case against your claim in post #121. So, please address what I said there.

 

[dad]

That blatantly contradicts what scripture indicates that things will be like in the last years before Christ returns. Jesus said it will be like the days of Noah before the flood (Matthew 24:37-39).

No. In fact the Scripture says that multitudes no man could number were saved. Rev 7:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith and that wickedness will no longer be restrained during the time preceding Christ's return, not mass conversions.

Before the rapture and last years. And also in the final days. How else could demons gather huge armies to fight God at Armageddon? There are also multitudes of saved. He separates the sheep from the goats. There are both

Jesus indicated that things will be so bad spiritually at the time He comes again that He questioned whether He would find faith on the earth at that time. But, you say "untold billions or millions will be saved in the last years"? Why do you not believe what Jesus and Paul taught about the time before Jesus returns?

Yet a multitude too large to count were washed in His blood and came out of that tribulation.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Yes! Even though perhaps most believers may have been martyred in the Tribulation. What you thought the answer was no?

Your answer to Jesus's question is "Yes, He will find untold billions or millions who have been saved in recent years, plus all those who were saved before that". Despite Jesus Himself saying it will be like the days of Noah before He comes.

Well, the thing is many or most of those might be dead before the time He returns and in heaven already

That doesn't mean only 8 people in the world will be saved, but the fact that there will be a mass falling away from the faith and wickedness will become unrestrained in the time before Jesus comes does not support the idea of untold billions or millions being saved during that time.

Yes it sure does. Most or many are beheaded and killed in the Tribulation perhaps.

You say they can't be saved now, but will get saved in the end,

I never said some cannot be saved. I said the saving of all Israel (the remnant) is in the end. Don't misconstrue what I say.

 

[dad]

No. In fact the Scripture says that multitudes no man could number were saved. Rev 7:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Before the rapture and last years. And also in the final days. How else could demons gather huge armies to fight God at Armageddon? There are also multitudes of saved. He separates the sheep from the goats. There are both

Yet a multitude too large to count were washed in His blood and came out of that tribulation.

Yes! Even though perhaps most believers may have been martyred in the Tribulation. What you thought the answer was no?

Well, the thing is many or most of those might be dead before the time He returns and in heaven already

Yes it sure does. Most or many are beheaded and killed in the Tribulation perhaps.

I never said some cannot be saved. I said the saving of all Israel (the remnant) is in the end. Don't misconstrue what I say.

Just decimated it completely in my last posts. You're welcome

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No.

No?! You are denying that it will be like the days of Noah in the days before Jesus comes, as Jesus Himself indicated in Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30? That means most people will be oblivious to their lost condition and will just go about their normal lives and then "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

In fact the Scripture says that multitudes no man could number were saved.
Rev 7:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That is not talking only about people who are saved in the years just before Jesus returns. That is talking about people who have been saved throughout the New Testament time period. Do you not know that all believers come out of great tribulation?

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Before the rapture and last years.

Wrong. Your hyper-futurist perspective is leading you astray. Why are you just ignoring my arguments? Are you afraid to address them? How do you think that a great multitude that no one can count will be saved in the years just before Christ returns when Jesus Himself asked if He would find faith on the earth when He comes and when Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith before Jesus comes and that wickedness would not be restrained in the time before Jesus comes? Why won't you address this? Is it because you just believe what you want to believe and aren't willing to take ALL of scripture into consideration?

 

[rwb]

Can't argue with that. However, since all that little remnant in the end get saved, we can still say all Israel will be saved.

Yes, the faithful remnant from Israel with faithful Gentiles combined shall be "all Israel that shall be saved." It is through Gentiles being grafted in among the remnant of faithful Israel that all Israel shall be saved. Since the advent of Christ faithful Jew & Gentile together are the "Israel of God."

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[rwb]

Says who? Did you ask them? No. Because they are not even here now. Does not God know what He is doing? Do you think He has it all wrong giving that land and restoring the believing remnant in the end as promised?

Israel of faith, like Gentiles of faith shall inherit the whole new earth! Why would they be content with only the promised land of old since God has promised the faithful shall inherit the new earth and all things?

Revelation 21:1-7 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Psalm 25:13 (KJV) His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:5 (KJV) Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[dad]

No?! You are denying that it will be like the days of Noah in the days before Jesus comes, as Jesus Himself indicated in Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30? That means most people will be oblivious to their lost condition and will just go about their normal lives and then "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

The world will be (as is) evil. Nevertheless where Iniquity abounds, grace does much more abound of course. There will be messengers from God preaching, and angels. Did you think no one would listen? Did you think God made a mistake sending them? Do you think He was lying when talking about a multitude no one could count that come out of the tribulation who were saved?

That is not talking only about people who are saved in the years just before Jesus returns. That is talking about people who have been saved throughout the New Testament time period. Do you not know that all believers come out of great tribulation?

Well actually it specifies they came out of GREAT Tribulation. Not just any tribulations.


Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Yes there was always tribulations. Only one Great Tribulation

How do you think that a great multitude that no one can count will be saved in the years just before Christ returns when Jesus Himself asked if He would find faith on the earth when He comes and when Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith before Jesus comes and that wickedness would not be restrained in the time before Jesus comes?

Easy. God arranges it. 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Two final witnesses with super powers. Angels preaching the gospel. Etc. Actually a lot of people flee the world kingdom and disappear from their radar and reach. Not only Satan will be working in that time you know!

 

[dad]

Yes, the faithful remnant from Israel with faithful Gentiles combined shall be "all Israel that shall be saved." It is through Gentiles being grafted in among the remnant of faithful Israel that all Israel shall be saved.

Well, in the prophesy about them it doesn't mention it is because of gentiles. I don't doubt God uses gentiles to reach them. He will also use 144,000 Jewish witnesses, and Two special witnesses (possible Moses and Elijah or such) Also angels from heaven...etc. I don't doubt He even uses the bitter betrayal of the AntiChrist false shepherd in helping them come to a place of belief.

Since the advent of Christ faithful Jew & Gentile together are the "Israel of God."

Yes. And the saved remnant will also be. In fact they have special promises for them regarding the promised land.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

In other words Jesus is returning and then He will turn away the ungodliness from the remnant in the end.

 

[dad]

Israel of faith, like Gentiles of faith shall inherit the whole new earth!

Yet the Israel who all get saved in the end also inherit all the promised land. The new earth is nowhere around at that time and won't be for a thousand years later.

Why would they be content with only the promised land of old since God has promised the faithful shall inherit the new earth and all things?

I am not sure, but Jewish people I think would love to have the land from Egypt to the river and sea etc etc. Protected and blessed by God. Restored from all over the earth by God. That does not mean they are in jail! It could even mean that many of them might choose to live in our Hew Jerusalem most of the time. But Israel will have all that land. Who knows, some Christians may even choose to have a second home in the promised land, or part time home, etc etc. After all we will be ruling the planet with Jesus from Jerusalem. One big happy family. Then, after the thousand years, well, maybe we all live in our new city?

Revelation 21:1-7 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Psalm 25:13 (KJV) His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:5 (KJV) Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Yes we shall inherit the earth. In the verse you cite above, that is after the thousand years.

 

[Zao is life]

"And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God" Did God give your fathers that land? Not mine. " I will also cause you to dwell in the cities" ? God prepared Jew Jerusalem for us. That is not talking about Christians today.
"multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field" Being farmers in the Mis East is not what we have to look forward to as Christians actually. Sure, it coulld be fun as a vacation place or something for some. Our home is in the heavens. (Our rule will be on earth) "O house of Israel. ? That is not the way Jesus refers to us. It is obvious what is being talked about in these verses.

1. Was the New Covenant promised to the house of Judah only, or to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah?

2. Who is the house of Israel in scripture? Who is the house of Judah in scripture?

3. How many tribes of Israel is Judah (the Jews?).

4. How many tribes of Israel is Benjamin?

5. Who did Paul claim to be descended from?

6. Where are the other ten tribes who were promised the land but were exiled in 722 BC, never returned, whose descendants intermarried with Gentiles, causing them to become amalgamated with the nations, whom Paul included with Gentiles in the promise of their restoration to the land?

7. Do you even know where in the Bible the promise of restoration to the land for the ten tribes (the house of Israel) appears which Paul included Gentiles in the fulillment of? (The house of Judah is not included in that particular promise, since that particlar prophecy did not apply to the Jews, and it stated that the house of Israel would cease being a nation before God).

I doubt you can correctly answer these questions though, because you clearly do not know who Israel is. You think only Judah (the Jews) = Israel.

The promised inheritance is Christ's and all those who belong to Him. You can't take it away from him to give it to people who reject the King of the Jews, the King of Israel - just because their ancestral DNA is Jewish - John the Baptist told you that, Jesus told you that, and the apostles told you that.

They also told you that the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are included in the promises, but your ears are as good as those who reject what they all said - because you exalt the flesh - the ancestral DNA of two of the ten tribes of Israel.

 

[rwb]

Well, in the prophesy about them it doesn't mention it is because of gentiles. I don't doubt God uses gentiles to reach them. He will also use 144,000 Jewish witnesses, and Two special witnesses (possible Moses and Elijah or such) Also angels from heaven...etc. I don't doubt He even uses the bitter betrayal of the AntiChrist false shepherd in helping them come to a place of belief.

I find no evidence for any of this in the Word of God. Since you don't prove what you allege from the Word of God, I'm left to believe this is simply opinion without biblical fact.

Yes. And the saved remnant will also be. In fact they have special promises for them regarding the promised land.

As I keep saying, the promise is not for only some of the earth but that believers shall inherit the entire new earth, both Jew & Gentile of faith together.

I am not sure, but Jewish people I think would love to have the land from Egypt to the river and sea etc etc. Protected and blessed by God. Restored from all over the earth by God. That does not mean they are in jail! It could even mean that many of them might choose to live in our Hew Jerusalem most of the time. But Israel will have all that land. Who knows, some Christians may even choose to have a second home in the promised land, or part time home, etc etc. After all we will be ruling the planet with Jesus from Jerusalem. One big happy family. Then, after the thousand years, well, maybe we all live in our new city?

More opinion without biblical proof?

Yes we shall inherit the earth. In the verse you cite above, that is after the thousand years.

There will not be one thousand years of more time given this earth after the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound that Christ has come again. We are currently living in this period of time that John writes a/the thousand years. This time is not physical time but symbolic of all time that began with Christ coming to earth a man and will end when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound.

 

[dad]

1. Was the New Covenant promised to the house of Judah only, or to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah?

The promise of salvation and restoration for saved Israel in the end is not New Testament.No more than it is Yellow Pages.

2. Who is the house of Israel in scripture? Who is the house of Judah in scripture?

Depends on context.

3. How many tribes of Israel is Judah (the Jews?).

Doesn't matter. They all get saved in the end.

4. How many tribes of Israel is Benjamin?

5. Who did Paul claim to be descended from?

Who Paul's parents were has zero to do with whether God is a liar or not.

6. Where are the other ten tribes who were promised the land but were exiled in 722 BC, never returned, whose descendants intermarried with Gentiles, causing them to become amalgamated with the nations, whom Paul included with Gentiles in the promise of their restoration to the land?

I don't care if they are in Disneyland. God has their number

7. Do you even know where in the Bible the promise of restoration to the land for the ten tribes (the house of Israel) appears which Paul included Gentiles in the fulillment of? (The house of Judah is not included in that particular promise, since that particlar prophecy did not apply to the Jews, and it stated that the house of Israel would cease being a nation before God).

No one cares what tribe did well or not here inn regards to God promised to gather all of them. Not like He can't find them.

I doubt you can correctly answer these questions though, because you clearly do not know who Israel is. You think only Judah (the Jews) = Israel.

You doubted wrongly

The promised inheritance is Christ's and all those who belong to Him.

Which is why it will be the saved remnant of Jews in the end He restores.

You can't take it away from him to give it to people who reject the King of the Jews,

Saved Israel will accept Him, and He will be the one giving and taking what He wants.

the King of Israel - just because their ancestral DNA is Jewish - John the Baptist told you that, Jesus told you that, and the apostles told you that.

See above. Believers inherit the promise. Not unbelieving Israel. Their reward is quite different.

They also told you that the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are included in the promises,

The promise of salvation and the kingdom etc. Not the promises to be grabbed and moved to dirt in the Middle East.

but your ears are as good as those who reject what they all said - because you exalt the flesh - the ancestral DNA of two of the ten tribes of Israel.

Empty babble clothed in religious sounding empty words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The world will be (as is) evil. Nevertheless where Iniquity abounds, grace does much more abound of course. There will be messengers from God preaching, and angels. Did you think no one would listen? Did you think God made a mistake sending them? Do you think He was lying when talking about a multitude no one could count that come out of the tribulation who were saved?

Hey, buddy, don't ever ask me if I think God made a mistake or if He lied ever again. No one here thinks that God ever makes mistakes or lies, so don't ask me stupid questions like that. I'm disagreeing with your interpretation of the scripture, not with the scripture itself. Do you understand the difference or am I talking to someone who can't even understand simple things? You ASSUME that it's talking about a short period of time before Christ returns, but it is not. Many Christians have been persecuted and have come out of great tribulation for the past 2,000 years. You have to be very ignorant to not understand that.

Well actually it specifies they came out of GREAT Tribulation. Not just any tribulations.


Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

LOL. I would say "MUCH" tribulation is great tribulation. The only arguments you have to offer are ones over semantics. You have no arguments of any substance to offer.

Yes there was always tribulations. Only one Great Tribulation

It doesn't say "THE Great Tribulation", as you imagine. It says "great tribulation".

Easy. God arranges it. 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Two final witnesses with super powers. Angels preaching the gospel. Etc. Actually a lot of people flee the world kingdom and disappear from their radar and reach. Not only Satan will be working in that time you know!

LOL. So, there will be like the days of Noah, there will be a mass falling away from the faith and wickedness will no longer be restrained at all, yet you think more people than ever will be saved during that time. Such nonsense. I can't take you seriously. I'm not going to waste any more time on you when you are not willing to be serious and think objectively about this.

 

[dad]

Hey, buddy, don't ever ask me if I think God made a mistake or if He lied ever again.

Well if He states several times that He will restore Israel in the end and you claim He won't, how do you reconcile these?

I'm disagreeing with your interpretation of the scripture, not with the scripture itself.

Well here is a large page of restoration scriptures.

Bible Verses about Israel, Restoration of

Not sure interpreting is involved. God is saying stuff. Believe it -- or not. Those are the options.

Do you understand the difference or am I talking to someone who can't even understand simple things? You ASSUME that it's talking about a short period of time before Christ returns, but it is not. Many Christians have been persecuted and have come out of great tribulation for the past 2,000 years. You have to be very ignorant to not understand that.

Jesus made it clear that the Great Tribulation is actually a time UNLIKE any other time in history, or that will ever happen. You don't get to try and hide that in a fuzzy wuzzy 'gee, there was tribulation lots of times' I showed how it specified Great Tribulation

LOL. I would say "MUCH" tribulation is great tribulation. The only arguments you have to offer are ones over semantics. You have no arguments of any substance to offer.

No. There is nothing remotely similar to that last 3 1/2 yrs. It is in a class by itself. We should be able to tune in when Scripture refers to it.

It doesn't say "THE Great Tribulation", as you imagine. It says "great tribulation".

Yes. And nowhere else in Scripture is that used unless it refers to the Great Tribulation that I have seen?

LOL. So, there will be like the days of Noah, there will be a mass falling away from the faith and wickedness will no longer be restrained at all, yet you think more people than ever will be saved during that time.

Correct. The bible says huge unnumberable multitudes come out of the Great Tribulation. Specifically. Precisely.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well if He states several times that He will restore Israel in the end and you claim He won't, how do you reconcile these?

I claim that you don't understand what those verses are all about. I would never claim that God won't do what He says He will do. Just because I disagree with you about what God said He will do doesn't mean I deny that God will do what He says He will do. Understand? He will do what he says He will do regardless of whether you or I or anyone else understands what He said He will do or not.

Well here is a large page of restoration scriptures.

Bible Verses about Israel, Restoration of

Not sure interpreting is involved.

That's just a foolish statement. Of course interpreting is involved. Good grief. Have you never read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16? Paul makes it clear that spiritual discernment is required in order to understand the deeper things of God and some of the things we discuss on this forum fall into that category.

God is saying stuff. Believe it -- or not. Those are the options.

LOL. I believe everything God says, but I'm not obligated to understand what He says the way you do.

Jesus made it clear that the Great Tribulation is actually a time UNLIKE any other time in history, or that will ever happen. You don't get to try and hide that in a fuzzy wuzzy 'gee, there was tribulation lots of times' I showed how it specified Great Tribulation

Where does Revelation 7 say anything about "THE great tribulation"? Nowhere! You are twisting scripture to fit your doctrine! Do you have no shame? That is unacceptable. It's not as if "THE great tribulation" is the only great tribulation to ever occur. Plus, "THE great tribulation" relates to God's wrath while "great tribulation" that is referenced in Revelation 7 relates to persecution and other tribulation that believers go through.

No. There is nothing remotely similar to that last 3 1/2 yrs. It is in a class by itself. We should be able to tune in when Scripture refers to it.

Where does Revelation 7 say anything about anyone coming out of great tribulation only in "that last 3 1/2 years"? Nowhere!

Yes. And nowhere else in Scripture is that used unless it refers to the Great Tribulation that I have seen?

LOL. You have all these man-made rules that you expect everyone to follow. There is no reason why the phrase "great tribulation" can't be used in a different context than it is in the Olivet Discourse. The "much tribulation" that it says we go through to enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22) can certainly be considered great tribulation since the words "much" and "great" can be used as synonyms.

Correct. The bible says huge unnumberable multitudes come out of the Great Tribulation. Specifically. Precisely.

It does NOT say "THE great tribulation". You should be ashamed of yourself for blatantly twisting scripture like this. When someone is willing to twist scripture to make it say what they want it to say, I lose all respect for that person. So, I currently have no respect for you.

 

[amigo de christo]

That blatantly contradicts what scripture indicates that things will be like in the last years before Christ returns. Jesus said it will be like the days of Noah before the flood (Matthew 24:37-39).

Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith and that wickedness will no longer be restrained during the time preceding Christ's return, not mass conversions.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Jesus indicated that things will be so bad spiritually at the time He comes again that He questioned whether He would find faith on the earth at that time. But, you say "untold billions or millions will be saved in the last years"? Why do you not believe what Jesus and Paul taught about the time before Jesus returns?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Your answer to Jesus's question is "Yes, He will find untold billions or millions who have been saved in recent years, plus all those who were saved before that". Despite Jesus Himself saying it will be like the days of Noah before He comes. That doesn't mean only 8 people in the world will be saved, but the fact that there will be a mass falling away from the faith and wickedness will become unrestrained in the time before Jesus comes does not support the idea of untold billions or millions being saved during that time.


You say they can't be saved now, but will get saved in the end, but that is not true. Jews have been getting saved every day for the past almost 2,000 years. Their salvation has not been postponed, as you imagine. They don't have to wait until the end to get saved. It will be too late at that point for any of them who do not believe and are alive at that point. Jesus will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers, Jew or Gentile, on the day that He comes again (2 Thess 1:7-9).

That is the problem my friend . these people acting like at the end many will be sav ed .
NOPE , WHEN JESUS COMETH its too late . THE TIME to preach JESUS to both jews and gentiles is NOW .
a massive falling away is going viral right now and many think its love and the love of God .
An ecumenical harlot has arose and taken the hearts of many captive to a lie .
a lie that more and more of even the false religoins believe is GOD and LOVE as well as much of christendom too .
AND by means of its love IT HAS LED EVEN much of christendom into ALL OUT REBELLION
against THE VERY CHRIST . And these people keep t hinking there is a big love revival coming .
NOPE its the lie and the peak hour of the falling away . some are still being saved even now
BUT MANY are headed deeper and deeper into the lie they think is LOVE and is of GOD and IS his plan
for world peace . ONLY ITS OF ANTI CHRIST .
The question is WHO IS THE ISRAEL OF GOD . cause not all of israel are of THAT ISRAEL .
FAITH IN JESUS is the only entrance into the one true KINGDOM of GOD and HIS ISRAEL have CONFESSED THE NAME OF HIS CHRIST .
But many keep running to the earthen , many keep heeding the earthen and that solution . and that solution
WILL END THEM ALL on the day of THE GREAT GOD and OF HIS CHRIST upon whom their love DENIED .

 

[amigo de christo]

Hey, buddy, don't ever ask me if I think God made a mistake or if He lied ever again. No one here thinks that God ever makes mistakes or lies, so don't ask me stupid questions like that. I'm disagreeing with your interpretation of the scripture, not with the scripture itself. Do you understand the difference or am I talking to someone who can't even understand simple things? You ASSUME that it's talking about a short period of time before Christ returns, but it is not. Many Christians have been persecuted and have come out of great tribulation for the past 2,000 years. You have to be very ignorant to not understand that.


LOL. I would say "MUCH" tribulation is great tribulation. The only arguments you have to offer are ones over semantics. You have no arguments of any substance to offer.


It doesn't say "THE Great Tribulation", as you imagine. It says "great tribulation".


LOL. So, there will be like the days of Noah, there will be a mass falling away from the faith and wickedness will no longer be restrained at all, yet you think more people than ever will be saved during that time. Such nonsense. I can't take you seriously. I'm not going to waste any more time on you when you are not willing to be serious and think objectively about this.

what many cannot see
is that Tribulation has been even since the beginning
and its only been increasing . That which is of anti christ , the mystery of inquity
HAS LONG been at work . And now in and at the end hour ITS GROWING MASSIVE
and a huge falling away is growing .
THEY are unifying UNDER A LIE and a liar but this liar , this father of lies
Has convinced them HE IS GOD and HE IS LOVE . that is one wise serpent .
But the sheep do not heed its voice for CHRIST has the sheep .
THEY are unifying more and more under that which is and has been of anti christ
and they think its of GOD and its peace plan is OF GOD . only IT AINT .
HAs anyone even bothered to read this peace ..........THEY LIE to all religoins , THEY LIE and say we all serve the same GOD
making THE VERY WORDS of JESUS and HIS GOSPEL of NO EFFECT . THAT BE ANTI CHRIST
and that be ITS PEACE plan and they be a hollering its gonna usher upon earth world peace n safety .
NOT peace n safety , RATHER SUDDEN DESRUCTION , and they have NO IDEA that is what day they are being LED TOO .
TO THE DAY OF their own destruction .
And just like in the days of ahab , THE PROPHETS ALL prophesy the same lie as one
and have no idea A LYING SPIRIT IS convincing them all to GO UP to the table of peace n unity
and ye shall have the victory , YE shall have peace n saf ety .
WELL it didin work out for ahab and IT WONT FOR THEM EITHER .

 

[dad]

I claim that you don't understand what those verses are all about.

I tend to agree. You don't seem to

I would never claim that God won't do what He says He will do. Just because I disagree with you about what God said He will do doesn't mean I deny that God will do what He says He will do. Understand? He will do what he says He will do regardless of whether you or I or anyone else understands what He said He will do or not.

Right, yet if He says He will bring them from all the world, you seem to try and say it doesn't really mean it

That's just a foolish statement. Of course interpreting is involved. Good grief. Have you never read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16? Paul makes it clear that spiritual discernment is required in order to understand the deeper things of God and some of the things we discuss on this forum fall into that category.

No. Interpreting is not needed for all things. For example, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. We do not need a team of interpreters for that. It is a specific place. Just like the lands of promises are a specific place.

LOL. I believe everything God says, but I'm not obligated to understand what He says the way you do.

You should explain why the territory God says He will bring Israel back to is not really a territory?

Where does Revelation 7 say anything about "THE great tribulation"? Nowhere! You are twisting scripture to fit your doctrine! Do you have no shame? That is unacceptable. It's not as if "THE great tribulation" is the only great tribulation to ever occur. Plus, "THE great tribulation" relates to God's wrath while "great tribulation" that is referenced in Revelation 7 relates to persecution and other tribulation that believers go through.

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If any lurker has any doubt what period this is talking about, verses preceding this pinpoint it for us. It is AFTER the seals and vials! NOT some general tribulation of thousands of years ago!

Where does Revelation 7 say anything about anyone coming out of great tribulation only in "that last 3 1/2 years"? Nowhere!

See above.

LOL. You have all these man-made rules that you expect everyone to follow. There is no reason why the phrase "great tribulation" can't be used in a different context than it is in the Olivet Discourse. The "much tribulation" that it says we go through to enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22) can certainly be considered great tribulation since the words "much" and "great" can be used as synonyms.

Yes, the seals and vials are the end of the tribulation. No fuzzy confusion needed whatsoever.