Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[doctrox]

.

I assure you that I usually do quote scripture in my posts. However, I couldn't find a scripture quote that even mentions denominations, otherwise I would have quoted it.

I understand. Yet the answer is always there, if we will but dig a bit deeper.

The passage does not mention denominations.

I detailed, with corroborating scripture, the gist of my post:

In the Holy Bible, "heresy/heresies" and "sect" are from the same word (#G139 hairesis), and "denomination" is likewise a "sect".

Further, from the Cambridge Dictionary:

denomination, n.
"a religious group that has slightly different beliefs from other groups that share the same religion:
- Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are both denominations of the Christian faith.

["Slightly different beliefs"??? ala "almost preg"? Obviously, Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are not compatible; at the least, one of these two "Christian" denominations is a heresy/sect...]

Heresy = sect = denomination.

Here are all 9 appearance of the word hairesis (#G139):

Act 5:17
Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect G139 of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Act 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect G139 of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect G139 of the Nazarenes:

Act 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, G139 so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 26:5
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect G139 of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Act 28:22
But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, G139 we know that every where it is spoken against.

1Co 11:19
For there must be also heresies G139 among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, G139

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, G139 even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


1. (from αἱρέω), act of taking, capture: τῆς πόλεως, the storming of a city; in secular authors.
2. (from αἱρέομαι), choosing, choice, very often in secular writings: Sept. Leviticus 22:18; 1 Macc. 8:30.
3. that which is chosen, a chosen course of thought and action; hence one's chosen opinion, tenet; according to the context, an opinion varying from the true exposition of the Christian faith (heresy): 2 Peter 2:1 (cf. DeWette at the passage), and in ecclesiastical writings [cf. Sophocles' Lexicon, under the word].
4. a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets (a sect or party): as the Sadducees, Acts 5:17; the Pharisees, Acts 15:5; Acts 26:5; the Christians, Acts 24:5, 14 (in both instances with a suggestion of reproach); Acts 28:22 (in Diogenes Laërtius 1 (13) 18f, others, used of the schools of philosophy).
5. dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims: Galatians 5:20; 1 Corinthians 11:19. [Cf. Meyer, at the passages cited; B. D. American edition under the word Sects; Burton, Bampt. Lect. for 1829; Campbell, Diss. on the Gospels, diss. ix., part iv.]
source - Thayer's Greek Lexicon (#G139)

Denominationalism: "The system and ideology founded on the division of the religious population into numerous ecclesiastical bodies, each stressing particular values or traditions and each competing with the other in the same community under substantial conditions of freedom. Thus denominationalism has usually been associated with religious pluralism, voluntaryism, mutual respect and recognition, and neutrality on the part of the state." Westminster Dictionary of Church History (1971), pages 262-263.

As you can see, the very definition of ‘denominationalism’ goes against the very heart of scripture. If you take the five words in bold above, for example, and compare these words with what scripture says about them, it is all negative: Division (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). Traditions (Matthew 15:3,6, Mark 7:8,9,13. Colossians 2:8). Competing (2 Corinthians 10:12). Religious pluralism (Galatians 1:8,9). Respect (James 2:9, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7).

Heresy = sect = denomination.
.

 

[David Lamb]

.

I understand. Yet the answer is always there, if we will but dig a bit deeper.


I detailed, with corroborating scripture, the gist of my post:

In the Holy Bible, "heresy/heresies" and "sect" are from the same word (#G139 hairesis), and "denomination" is likewise a "sect".

Further, from the Cambridge Dictionary:

denomination, n.
"a religious group that has slightly different beliefs from other groups that share the same religion:
- Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are both denominations of the Christian faith.

["Slightly different beliefs"??? ala "almost preg"? Obviously, Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are not compatible; at the least, one of these two "Christian" denominations is a heresy/sect...]

Heresy = sect = denomination.

Here are all 9 appearance of the word hairesis (#G139):

Act 5:17
Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect G139 of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Act 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect G139 of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect G139 of the Nazarenes:

Act 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, G139 so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 26:5
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect G139 of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Act 28:22
But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, G139 we know that every where it is spoken against.

1Co 11:19
For there must be also heresies G139 among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, G139

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, G139 even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


1. (from αἱρέω), act of taking, capture: τῆς πόλεως, the storming of a city; in secular authors.
2. (from αἱρέομαι), choosing, choice, very often in secular writings: Sept. Leviticus 22:18; 1 Macc. 8:30.
3. that which is chosen, a chosen course of thought and action; hence one's chosen opinion, tenet; according to the context, an opinion varying from the true exposition of the Christian faith (heresy): 2 Peter 2:1 (cf. DeWette at the passage), and in ecclesiastical writings [cf. Sophocles' Lexicon, under the word].
4. a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets (a sect or party): as the Sadducees, Acts 5:17; the Pharisees, Acts 15:5; Acts 26:5; the Christians, Acts 24:5, 14 (in both instances with a suggestion of reproach); Acts 28:22 (in Diogenes Laërtius 1 (13) 18f, others, used of the schools of philosophy).
5. dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims: Galatians 5:20; 1 Corinthians 11:19. [Cf. Meyer, at the passages cited; B. D. American edition under the word Sects; Burton, Bampt. Lect. for 1829; Campbell, Diss. on the Gospels, diss. ix., part iv.]
source - Thayer's Greek Lexicon (#G139)

Denominationalism: "The system and ideology founded on the division of the religious population into numerous ecclesiastical bodies, each stressing particular values or traditions and each competing with the other in the same community under substantial conditions of freedom. Thus denominationalism has usually been associated with religious pluralism, voluntaryism, mutual respect and recognition, and neutrality on the part of the state." Westminster Dictionary of Church History (1971), pages 262-263.

As you can see, the very definition of ‘denominationalism’ goes against the very heart of scripture. If you take the five words in bold above, for example, and compare these words with what scripture says about them, it is all negative: Division (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). Traditions (Matthew 15:3,6, Mark 7:8,9,13. Colossians 2:8). Competing (2 Corinthians 10:12). Religious pluralism (Galatians 1:8,9). Respect (James 2:9, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7).

Heresy = sect = denomination.
.

I don't agree that all denominations are heresies and sects. A heresy is (according to the dictionary I looked in) an opinion or doctrine contrary to the orthodox tenets of a religious body or church. So the Roman Catholic church (a denomination) accused the Reformers of heresy, because their biblical beliefs often went against Roman Catholic dogma and tradition. Regarding a sect, one definition I found was this: "The term sect in religion refers to a group that holds beliefs contrary to the larger denominational group of which it is a subset."

 

[St. SteVen]

We throw around these terms like "heresies and sects" as if they are always a bad thing.
Not so much.

Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist?)

Follow-up to the "Is Universalism Orthodox."[?] topic. What is this thing with accusations of unorthodox, heretic, heterodox, pagan, etc. Seems like blatant tribalism to me. Us versus them. When will we ever learn? So, was Jesus orthodox? Or did he operate outside the realm of the orthodoxy of...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[doctrox]

We throw around these terms like "heresies and sects" as if they are always a bad thing.
Not so much.

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Cor. 11:19).

 

[St. SteVen]

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Cor. 11:19).

Not about doctrine.

1 Cor. 11:17-19
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.
18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I seem to stand alone in my position
that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection.
Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

 

[quietthinker]

I seem to stand alone in my position
that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection.
Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

Yes, it was a real event. Jesus told them on the way down to tell no one about it till after he was raised from the dead.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I seem to stand alone in my position
that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection.
Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

Peter's own testimony in 2 Peter 1:16-18 shows that it was a real, miraculous event in which Jesus shows his divine brightness in God's glory cloud:

2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

Now, Jesus' later symbolic vision given to John in Revelation 1:10-16 also shows Jesus' divine glory figuratively:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind, what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish? Three views of the final judgment: - Damnationism (eternal punishment) - Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked) - Universalism...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[Jack]

Quoting STV: I'm not convinced that God wanted us to have a Bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?​

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

 

[Jack]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

Which Bible says "transfiguration" ?

 

[The Learner]

both

 

[St. SteVen]

both

So we can speak with the dead?

 

[Wick Stick]

So we can speak with the dead?

We're prohibited from doing so, but the fact that we're prohibited suggests that it's possible.

 

[doctrox]

Which Bible says "transfiguration" ?

transfigured = metamorphoō

Found in the Holy Bible (AV):
transfigured - Mat. 17:2
transfigured - Mark 9:2

Also, the same Greek word is found here:
transformed - Romans 12:2
changed - 2 Cor. 3:8

So we can speak with the dead?

One must first scripturally define who/what is "the dead".

Concerning people, the life of the flesh is in the blood (Lev. 17:11) (no more blood = no more life). The dead know not any thing (Ecc. 9:5). Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecc. 12:7). God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat. 22:32). The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa. 115:17). ...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8).

Another interesting passage:

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16).

The unnamed rich man being tormented is equated with being "dead."

Concerning devils, they falsely claim the dead are alive.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So we can speak with the dead?

We're prohibited from doing so, but the fact that we're prohibited suggests that it's possible.

There is a reason why it was prohibited (Deut 18:9-12).....communication with the dead is a common practice in false worship because of belief in immortality of the soul....something NOT taught in Scripture, but is found in all false worship. The “soul” is entirely mortal. (Ezek 18:4)
There is no “immortal soul” taught in any passage of Scripture OT or NT.

Only spirits can be immortal because of not needing external means of life support. The “soul” is not the “spirit” and confusing these two words has led people to believe the first lie satan told in Eden....”you surely will not die”, when God told Adam that he would simply “return to the dust”. His “spirit” was the breath of life imparted to him at his creation...and that is what made him a “soul”....a living breathing creature.

No afterlife is ever mentioned except by means of a resurrection, which has nothing to do with immortal souls. It is the future raising of the dead by Jesus himself. (John 5:28-29) He calls them out of their graves, which are on earth....so they haven’t gone anywhere.

If the devil is intent on promoting the lie that ‘we don’t really die’ and dead loved ones come back and speak to us....or those who have NDE’s....who is behind that masquerade? The demons know everything about everyone, and can speak of things that only that person would know.....the only ones fooled by such experiences are those who fail to believe that we actually die....that death is conveyed in the Bible as the opposite of life....not another kind of life after death in some invisible realm.

The Catholic Church had a field day with those places....invented to scare the pants off anyone who disobeyed them....fear is a powerful influence.
We are not to serve God out of fear.

 

[St. SteVen]

The unnamed rich man being tormented is equated with being "dead."

Yet he and Abraham are having a conversation.

 

[St. SteVen]

Only spirits can be immortal because of not needing external means of life support. The “soul” is not the “spirit” and confusing these two words has led people to believe the first lie satan told in Eden....”you surely will not die”, when God told Adam that he would simply “return to the dust”. His “spirit” was the breath of life imparted to him at his creation...and that is what made him a “soul”....a living breathing creature.

How can you separate the soul from the spirit?
Both still part of the individual.
It seems that every being is either physical or spiritual.

 

[Jack]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

Why don't you quote the Scriptures STV?