Death Penalty: All in Favor? All Opposed?

[Armour of God]

Did you read Numbers 15:32-36

I did. The justice system for them back then, 4,000 years ago, was way different to the justice system now

 

[Wrangler]

I did. The justice system for them back then, 4,000 years ago, was way different to the justice system now

I realize another way different languages are being spoken but using the same words.

In the OP, I spoke about how the death penalty serves JUSTICE. You and @Button are talking about a corrupt system in America AS IF it is justice. It's not! And I think comparing the death row "process" of 10-20 years of appeals to abortion shows the corruption. MLK Jr said "Justice delayed is justice denied."

Do you realize how American-bureaucratic-centric you and @Button are? How much do you suppose it cost the Hebrews to execute justice in Numbers 15? Do you think it was more than keeping the man in captivity for 50 years?

 

[Armour of God]

Do you realize how American-bureaucratic-centric you and @Button are? How much do you suppose it cost the Hebrews to execute justice in Numbers 15? Do you think it was more than keeping the man in captivity for 50 years?

No, not back then. But from my research I do think it is at least compareable these days due to all the costs mentioned in the 3 sources I provided.
Is it corrupt? Of course it is, that's one of my arguments, it makes things more expensive than they should be

 

[Wrangler]

No, not back then. But from my research I do think it is at least compareable these days due to all the costs mentioned in the 3 sources I provided.
Is it corrupt? Of course it is, that's one of my arguments, it makes things more expensive than they should be

There is good reasons why lawyers have a worse reputation than prostitutes. It's an entire industry whose purpose is to profit at the worst times in someone's life - by creating "procedures" that make it even worse.

Even putting aside the death penalty, lawyers profit when people are put in jail. The longer the trial, the more profit. Compare to TV judges, who interrogate both sides to get at the noble truth. Judgement is made in 15 minutes or so.

In this discussion, I'd like to separate corruption from a mistake. A mistake is a matter of fact, not opinion. Judges render opinions based on the available relevant facts. (In watching TV Judge shows, the litigants tend to present irrelevant facts to the Complaint. This is mostly due to emotion rather than moral corruption). In all things humans do, we must accept the condition of imperfection being in the realm of possibility. From ordering a meal, to how someone comes across to you and yes, to the carrying out of justice. (There was a teenager who posted here from Europe a few months back. She was grounded for a weekend and she believed that was cruel and unusual punishment, making her the victim. When asked what punishment she thought she deserved, she obviously thought less than what she got.)

Corruption is different. When the system is corrupt, justice is not the goal. Satisfying greed is. General Flynn said the process IS the penalty. In Europe, the loser has to pay the lawyer fees of the winning side. That's a good way to minimize frivolous lawsuits. In America, if someone damaged $500 worth of property, you only get that amount back. Something extra ordinary has to be an element to get compensated for the aggravation and time of taking someone to court. "Pain and suffering" only applies if gross negligence is involved, which is a higher standard than plain negligence. And when you're going through the process, the difference seems painfully esoteric.

The American system is currently corrupted by what I call THE PERVERSION OF EQUALITY. Charges of racism, sexism, etc. are excessively thrown around as a testament to victim mentality. I saw a vid over the weekend of a guy who got arrested at an airport. He got kicked off the plane and was highly agitated. When confronted by the police and they arrested him, he accused them all of being racist. Being Black doesn't mean you get to violate federal regulations, including ignoring directions that flight staff give. Other countries that are honor based, have far less litigation, which is overall much better for society.

Said differently, coercion and coercive agents cannot make up for a society in decline. While justice is always the goal, the human condition makes it an IDEAL, not easily obtained in practice.

 

[Armour of God]

There is good reasons why lawyers have a worse reputation than prostitutes. It's an entire industry whose purpose is to profit at the worst times in someone's life - by creating "procedures" that make it even worse.

Even putting aside the death penalty, lawyers profit when people are put in jail. The longer the trial, the more profit. Compare to TV judges, who interrogate both sides to get at the noble truth. Judgement is made in 15 minutes or so.

In this discussion, I'd like to separate corruption from a mistake. A mistake is a matter of fact, not opinion. Judges render opinions based on the available relevant facts. (In watching TV Judge shows, the litigants tend to present irrelevant facts to the Complaint. This is mostly due to emotion rather than moral corruption). In all things humans do, we must accept the condition of imperfection being in the realm of possibility. From ordering a meal, to how someone comes across to you and yes, to the carrying out of justice. (There was a teenager who posted here from Europe a few months back. She was grounded for a weekend and she believed that was cruel and unusual punishment, making her the victim. When asked what punishment she thought she deserved, she obviously thought less than what she got.)

Corruption is different. When the system is corrupt, justice is not the goal. Satisfying greed is. General Flynn said the process IS the penalty. In Europe, the loser has to pay the lawyer fees of the winning side. That's a good way to minimize frivolous lawsuits. In America, if someone damaged $500 worth of property, you only get that amount back. Something extra ordinary has to be an element to get compensated for the aggravation and time of taking someone to court. "Pain and suffering" only applies if gross negligence is involved, which is a higher standard than plain negligence. And when you're going through the process, the difference seems painfully esoteric.

The American system is currently corrupted by what I call THE PERVERSION OF JUSTICE. Charges of racism, sexism, etc. are excessively thrown around as a testament to victim mentality. I saw a vid over the weekend of a guy who got arrested at an airport. He got kicked off the plane and was highly agitated. When confronted by the police and they arrested him, he accused them all of being racist. Being Black doesn't mean you get to violate federal regulations, including ignoring directions that flight staff give. Other countries that are honor based, have far less litigation, which is overall much better for society.

Said differently, coercion and coercive agents cannot make up for a society in decline. While justice is always the goal, the human condition makes it an IDEAL, not easily obtained in practice.

I agree with all of that

 

[Button]

I realize another way different languages are being spoken but using the same words.

In the OP, I spoke about how the death penalty serves JUSTICE. You and @Button are talking about a corrupt system in America AS IF it is justice. It's not! And I think comparing the death row "process" of 10-20 years of appeals to abortion shows the corruption. MLK Jr said "Justice delayed is justice denied."

Do you realize how American-bureaucratic-centric you and @Button are? How much do you suppose it cost the Hebrews to execute justice in Numbers 15? Do you think it was more than keeping the man in captivity for 50 years?

At this point I'm exiting this thread. You don't know what is being discussed on my part,as you prove in your synopsis of my alleged POV above.
And worse,as if that were possible,you are now rambling and making even less sense in trying to defend yet again your initial errant point.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you realize how American-bureaucratic-centric you and @Button are? How much do you suppose it cost the Hebrews to execute justice in Numbers 15? Do you think it was more than keeping the man in captivity for 50 years?

At this point I'm exiting this thread.

Since you refuse to answer basic questions, I think it’s best.

 

[Taken]

Death Penalty: All in Favor? All Opposed?

Favor.

Just with God, Just with me.

Consequence?

Favor.

Public rid of Threat.
Taxpayer relieved of Cost.

Favor a sentence of Life without Parole?

Be upstanding, by taking the Responsibility upon yourself to Have what YOU want.

Choose yourself a Criminal Sentenced to Life without Parole and YOU Pledge to Support their needs.

Just Justice…
you get to SUPPORT what YOU want… and I will not be FORCED to SUPPORT, what I do not want…

 

[Armour of God]

Death Penalty: All in Favor? All Opposed?

Favor.

Just with God, Just with me.

Consequence?

Favor.

Public rid of Threat.
Taxpayer relieved of Cost.

Favor a sentence of Life without Parole?

Be upstanding, by taking the Responsibility upon yourself to Have what YOU want.

Choose yourself a Criminal Sentenced to Life without Parole and YOU Pledge to Support their needs.

Just Justice…
you get to SUPPORT what YOU want… and I will not be FORCED to SUPPORT, what I do not want…

What if you or a loved one was innocent and was being wrongfully sent to death?
Would you still support the death penalty?

 

[Taken]

What if you or a loved one was innocent and was being wrongfully sent to death?
Would you still support the death penalty?

First I believe there is a distinction between Murdering and Killing.

If it were me, ( my family member ) and was charged, but “innocent” of Murdering another, I would have been DOING Legal research, Long before a Trial.

Action has a greater outcome than Re-Action.

 

[Armour of God]

First I believe there is a distinction between Murdering and Killing.

If it were me, ( my family member ) and was charged, but “innocent” of Murdering another, I would have been DOING Legal research, Long before a Trial.

Action has a greater outcome than Re-Action.

Typically one does legal research when they face such things. But I don't think you answered my question

 

[Taken]

Typically one does legal research when they face such things. But I don't think you answered my question

I think “Typically”, people in a “legal” situation, grasp looking for an attorney.

I do research on laws that would apply to me, my kids… “Before”, I make decisions, for myself, and guidance for my kids, especially for Defense and Offense.

Would I still support death penalty, if it applied to me, my family member ? Yes.

I do not condone Murder or Theft. And Innocence, means no part, in the plot, planning or reasonable knowledge thereof the act.

 

[rockytopva]

In my opinion there is no fear over the consequences of shedding innocent blood here in the states. But I would say that innocent blood is something that cries unto God. The guilt of innocent blood curses entire cities. It is the responsibility of every citizen of a town to deal with the shedding of innocent blood. Chose not to deal with it and God himself will take issue with it.

10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him. Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them.
11 Then said they unto him, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
12 And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.
14 Wherefore they cried unto the Lord, and said, We beseech thee, O Lord, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O Lord, hast done as it pleased thee.
15 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows. - Jonah 1

1 If one be found slain in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee to possess it, lying in the field, and it be not known who hath slain him:
2 Then thy elders and thy judges shall come forth, and they shall measure unto the cities which are round about him that is slain:
3 And it shall be, that the city which is next unto the slain man, even the elders of that city shall take an heifer, which hath not been wrought with, and which hath not drawn in the yoke;
4 And the elders of that city shall bring down the heifer unto a rough valley, which is neither eared nor sown, and shall strike off the heifer's neck there in the valley:
5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the Lord thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the Lord; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
7 And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen it.
8 Be merciful, O Lord, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.
9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord. - Deuteronomy 21

And death is the answer to putting away the guilt over the shedding of innocent blood...

9 If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:
10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.
13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee. - Deuteronomy 19

 

[stevesonthebay]

I find it interesting that while there is a modern trend against the death penalty on the basis that taking any life is inhumane. As though the act of taking a life even when someone has committed the most evil acts. Is a greater moral wrong than the evil act.

But not because people want to be forgiving like in Christ. But that its an ideological belief against any percieved cruelty or oppression of others.

But at the same time people have also become judgemental and even wanting those percieved as bad actors to be severely punished and even calls for violence and ending their lives. Making their lives hell and ensuring they suffer.

This is the complete opposite of Gods grace and Christs forgiveness.

I am wondering if this is what happens when people and a society loses God and its moral compass. Makes themselves judge, jury and executioner. Rather than God who is over and above all humans.

The point is in rejecting God a new ideology and world order was declared as a human made social construction. That would do better than God and bring about a new utopia of love, kindness and peace.

It seems the exact opposite has happened. Theres a growing support for violence and even vigilante murders like with Kirk as being morally ok and even celebrated.

The so called new world order is failing miserably and has unleashed evil. This is what happens when we reject God.

 

[The Barbarian]

I read the other day that 170,000 people die from all causes everyday worldwide.

One hundred people wrongly killed by the state doesn't seem like a lot. But I suppose that it means a great deal to the innocent people and their families.

 

[Wrangler]

One hundred people wrongly killed by the state doesn't seem like a lot. But I suppose that it means a great deal to the innocent people and their families.

You keep denying people being rightly killed by the State.

 

[The Barbarian]

One hundred people wrongly killed by the state doesn't seem like a lot. But I suppose that it means a great deal to the innocent people and their families.

You keep denying people being rightly killed by the State.

We're talking about those wrongly killed by the state. Even if it's just a hundred, each one is an injustice that angers God.

 

[Wrangler]

We're talking about those wrongly killed by the state. Even if it's just a hundred, each one is an injustice that angers God.

Nope. I wrote the OP. This thread is not about people being wrongly killed by the State but about supporting or not supporting the death penalty when the death penalty might be a justified penalty.

 

[Lizbeth]

A friend recently wondered how many here support capital punishment but was afraid to ask. What do you think is the strongest arguments for and against it? @Armour of God, @Taken, @Debp, @Button, @Aunty Jane, @Reggie Belafonte, @Lizbeth

Just last weekend, I told my daughter that by the time someone becomes an adult, they hardly ever change their mind on any moral issue. And when they do, it's often because of a S.E.E. - a significant emotional event. This is a topic I wrote about before in the context something I changed my mind on.

As an Adult, On What Moral Issue Have You Changed Your Mind?

This thread got me thinking https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/do-you-believe-in-biological-evolution.73976/ As an Adult, On What Moral Issue Have You Changed Your Mind? For all the debating in our society, this question reveals the futility in it, for the most part. For me, I can think...

www.christianityboard.com

PRO'S:

1. JUSTICE. Leviticus 24:17-22 (REV)​

17“‘And if a man takes the life of any human being, he must be put to death, yes, death.​

18He who takes the life of an animal is to make restitution for it, life for life.d​

19If anyone injures his fellow Israelite, as he has done, so it is to be done to him:​

20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured someone, so is it to be done to him.​

21He who kills an animal is to make restitution, but he who kills a human is to be put to death.​

22You are to have one kind of law for the sojourner as well as the native-born; because I am Yahweh your God.’”​

2. DETERRENT. American Law and Economics Review, Volume 5, Issue 2, August 2003, Pages 344–376,​

Evidence on the deterrent effect of capital punishment is important for many states that are currently reconsidering their position on the issue. We examine the deterrent hypothesis by using county-level, postmoratorium panel data and a system of simultaneous equations. The procedure we employ overcomes common aggregation problems, eliminates the bias arising from unobserved heterogeneity, and provides evidence relevant for current conditions. Our results suggest that capital punishment has a strong deterrent effect; each execution results, on average, in eighteen fewer murders—with a margin of error of plus or minus ten. Tests show that results are not driven by tougher sentencing laws and are robust to many alternative specifications.​

​

This is highly debated and most groups deny there is evidence of a deterrent affect although many anecdotally believe it is a deterrent.​

​

3. FINANCIAL-DEFEATING THE PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX​

Sadly, in America the prison system has grown into a multi-billion dollar industry. America imprisons a larger % of its citizens than any country on Earth. Who does this benefit? Certainly not society.​

​

The cost of execution, the cost of a bullet, electricity, chemicals or scaffolding is far less than 50 years in prison. The American system of appeals taking decades makes a mockery of the Constitutional guarantee of a speedy trial. This corruption of the trial and appeals process is often used falsely to claim it is not cheaper to execute someone. Of course capital punishment is cheaper by over 99.9%.​

​

4. HISTORY​

Leviticus goes back to nearly 2,000 BC. The death penalty has always been a part of human civilization. It's only new age, modern sensibility that it, like slavery, is considered barbaric and offends modern, delicate sensibilities. That is not the consensus of history.​

CONS

1. PHILOSOPHY OF RIGHTS​

Government, being an extension of the people, cannot have rights the people don't have. And people do not have the right to kill someone where there is not a self-defense scenario. In other words, once a person is captured and arrested, killing by the State is murder.​

2. NO REMEDY FOR ERROR​

First formulated in a 1769 doctrine that says, “it is better that 10 guilty persons escape, than that 1 innocent suffer.” In the event that a person was wrongly imprisoned, society can compensate him financially so he might best enjoy his remaining years. With capital punishment, there is no remedy to compensate a person for error in our fallible justice system.​

CONCLUSION

From a numerical average perspective, obviously there are more arguments in favor. However, if one does a weighted average analysis, it can tilt the result to be opposed, which is what happened with me. Can devout Christians such as us agree to disagree on this important moral issue? Thoughts?

Here are some scriptures to consider on this topic:


1Ti 1:8-10

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine



Rom 13:1-5

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.



Gal 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

I take note that law was given to a nation of GOD’s people, called by His name, not to pagan nations. It was a blessing which, along with teaching them right from wrong, I believe where it says “law was added because of transgression” indicates it was also for the purpose of CONTAINING sin/crime that HIS people would be BLESSED with an orderly society as opposed to having to live with anarchy and unbridled sin/crime and pagan idolatry. I’m living in a country that is NOT being blessed any more and we have increasing lawlessness and crime and anarchy here as a result. Justice is not being meted out to criminals and victims of crime are not being granted justice. When a government is not upholding justice any more, that is a sign of a society under God’s judgment, not blessing.

And also we should keep in mind that there is no such thing as mercy without there also being the existence of wrath and accountability, because mercy involves being rescued from the wrath which is JUST. So I’m in favour of governments being JUST and meting out JUSTice JUSTly. Now that is not the church’s job…..our job is to show mercy in the face of just wrath/justice…..but from the scriptures above, it does appear that it IS supposed to be the God-given job of government, to be a minister of God for good to the righteous in the land, and a minister of God for wrath to those who do evil..

 

[Wrangler]

And also we should keep in mind that there is no such thing as mercy without there also being the existence of wrath and accountability, because mercy involves being rescued from the wrath which is JUST. So I’m in favour of governments being JUST and meting out JUSTice JUSTly. Now that is not the church’s job…..our job is to show mercy in the face of just wrath/justice…..but from the scriptures above, it does appear that it IS supposed to be the God-given job of government, to be a minister of God for good to the righteous in the land, and a minister of God for wrath to those who do evil..

This post has a lot of wisdom in it @Lizbeth! Thank you for your post.

One thing that frustrates me about the overly-spiritualized, is their denial of Ordo Amoris and how human beings having overlapping responsibilities. Yes, I am responsible to my boss at work but this is not the limit of my responsibilities. I have a responsibility to my parents, wife, children, neighbors, etc. And yes, we have a responsibility to our own government, as Christ commanded, give to Caesar what is Caesar's. It's irresponsible to say we only have a responsibility to God. It's simply not true.

"As Christians" X responsibility. Also, as children, Y responsibility. As parents, Z responsibility. As citizen's W responsibility.

Jesus was a subject of an empire that afforded few rights while imposing duties, e.g., carrying soldiers gear 1 mile. Christ expanded that to go above and beyond. Walk 2 miles. Matthew 5:41. In our Western countries, they call it citizen government or self-government. You in Canada and me in the States have a duty, a responsibility to guide our government to be and remain on the path of JUSTice. 1 Corinthians 6:3-4.