What are Israel's End Time Beliefs?

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Trekson

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What gets me is how people can read verses like…: Matt. 24:24 - "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

…then turn around and believe that a blood-thirsty, warmongering, Islamic leader whose (apparent) sole purpose is to destroy Israel and Christianity (in their eyes) could deceive anyone? No matter how many miracles a guy like this would do, the world won't "follow" that type of leader. They seem to have this picture of the a/c being some frothing at the mouth insane Saddam type character, when in fact the opposite is the most likely scenario.
I thought it might be a good idea to review what Israel’s end times beliefs are. I think their beliefs should give Christians a better idea on what the a/c will try to accomplish through deception. The following are excerpts from an article by Nissan Dovid Dubov on Chabad.org, a website on Jewish beliefs. Their word for Messiah is Mashiach. (non-italicized words in parenthesis mine)

“In Talmudic literature the title Mashiach, or Melech Hamashiach, (the King Messiah) is reserved for the Jewish leader who will redeem Israel in the End of Days.

One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that one day there will arise a dynamic Jewish leader,
a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the Land of Israel. All the nations of the world will recognise Mashiach to be a world leader and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine and, in general, a high standard of living. (1 Thess. 5:3)

The leadership quality of Mashiach means that through his dynamic personality and example, coupled with manifest humility, he will inspire all people to strive for good. He will transform a seemingly utopian dream into a reality. He will be recognised as a man of G–d with greater leadership qualities than even Moshe (Moses). Our prophets speak of the advent of a human leader, the magnitude of whom the world has not yet experienced. His unique example and leadership will inspire mankind to change direction…and will entail a return to Torah law, firmly ruling out any “other” messianic belief. (Christ) Mashiach will be a man who possesses extraordinary qualities. He will be proficient in both the written and oral Torah traditions. He will incessantly campaign for Torah observance among Jews and observance of the Seven Universal Noahide Laws by non-Jews. He will be scrupulously observant and encourage the highest standards from others. He will defend religious principles and repair breaches in their observance. Above all, Mashiach will be heralded as a true Jewish King, a person who leads the way in the service of G–d, totally humble yet enormously inspiring.

Jews anticipate the arrival of Mashiach everyday. However, the Talmud states that there is a predestined time when Mashiach will come. If we are meritorious he may come even before that predestined time. This “end of time” remains a mystery, yet the Talmud states that it will be before the Hebrew year 6000.

Any potential Mashiach must be a direct descendant of King David as well as erudite in Torah learning. It should be noted that many people living today can trace their lineage back to King David. The Chief Rabbi of Prague in the 16th Century, Rabbi Yehuda Loew (the Maharal), had a family tree that traced him back to the Davidic dynasty. Consequently, any direct descendant of the Maharal is of Davidic descent.

Maimonides, a great Jewish philosopher and codifier of the 12th Century, rules that if we recognise a human being who possesses the superlative qualities ascribed to Mashiach we may presume that he is the potential Mashiach.
If this individual actually succeeds in rebuilding the Temple and gathering in the exiles then he is the Mashiach.

Maimonides states in his Mishnah Torah – a compendium of the entire halachic tradition –
that Mashiach will first rebuild the Temple and then gather in the exiles. Jerusalem and the Temple will be the focus of Divine worship and “From Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the L–rd from Jerusalem.” The Talmud describes the period immediately prior to the advent of Mashiach as one of great travail and turmoil (birth pangs). There will be a world recession and governments will be controlled by despots. It is in this troubled setting that Mashiach will arrive

There is a tradition that Elijah the prophet will come to the world and announce the imminent arrival of Mashiach. However, according to other opinions, Mashiach may arrive unannounced. Elijah would then arrive to assist in the peace process. (The false prophet and the order of Rev. 13) Some suggest that if the Mashiach arrives in his predestined time then Elijah will announce his arrival, but if Mashiach comes suddenly then Elijah will appear after Mashiach has come. As mentioned before, it is unclear as to exactly how these events will unfold. However, this uncertainty does not affect the general matter of Mashiach’s arrival. (end of quoted material)

Remember a few years ago there was all this talk about a 12th Imam. Well also remember that Islam is a false religion with false prophets and false prophecies. There never will be a real 12th Imam. However, I wouldn’t put it past the Islamic leaders to “create” one to stimulate the war they so desire. This WW3 will probably be the event that will bring the Jewish messiah (Anti-Christ) to the forefront. Remember that the arrival of the Anti-Christ is a Jewish event not an Islamic one. He will come as Israel’s friend and benefactor, not their enemy. His goal is to get them to worship him, instead of God (the abomination of desolation). This what the term “anti” in anti-christ means, not the opposite of, but in place of.

Now a little about the anti-Christ. I don’t believe that Islam will be the vehicle of the antichrist. They will, in fact, ultimately go to war against each other. The anti in antichrist does not mean against Christ, it means instead of Christ. The antichrist’s goal will not be to destroy Israel but to take the praise and worship due to God and have the Jews worship him instead as foretold by Christ in John 5:43 - I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. Israel will believe the a/c is their prophesied messiah since they did not accept Christ and are still looking for another.

Satan is not a creator but he does copy or mimic the things of God to deceive people. Much of his and the a/c’s time on earth will be spent duplicating as closely as possible Jesus Christ in order to convince the world that he is Christ and to convince the Jews, he is their Messiah. We Christians have our Holy Trinity consisting of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Satan has his unholy trinity. In this unholy trinity, Satan wants to replace God, the a/c will be the acting god the son (even mimicking his death and resurrection in Rev. 13:3) and exercising the power of the Holy Spirit will be the false prophet, (compare Acts 1: 8 with Rev. 13:14). Satan will even have an equivalent archangel to Michael, his name is Abaddon or Apollyon as given in Rev. 9:11. They will excel at deceit as Matt. 24:24 points out. Only the elect, those who are born again with a knowledge of what to look for in the latter days, will be able to see through this deception.

For the Jews to accept him as their Messiah, there are some things that will need to fall into place. He will need to prove himself as coming from the line of David and thus will be of Jewish descent. He will likely come from the tribe of Dan as suggested in Jer. 8:16, and that is why Dan is not listed as one of the tribes in Rev. 7. It is possible that the faux messiah could be half Israeli and half Moslem, maybe even of the line of David “and” the line of Mohammad.

When he comes against the woman in Rev. 12, he is not coming against all of Israel but only those whose eyes are opened at the abomination of desolation and have now become believing Israel and reject him as messiah and turn to Christ per Zech. 12:10. They will most likely include the 144,000 of Rev. 7.

Some confusion undoubtedly arises from misinterpreting the sequence of Ez. 37 & 38. Chapter 37 has pre-millennial significance but chapter 38 has post millennial significance and is the same prophecy that is repeated in Rev. 20:8. However, cp.39 goes back to post 70th week significance. These are the only two places where Gog and Magog are mentioned together. So to sum up, the a/c will be Jewish, not Islamic.

He will fight against the Moslems as protector of Israel, not with them against Israel. His cohort, the false prophet could possibly be a pope and the a/c’s goal is to destroy the church and the Israel remnant who reject him because they will refuse to give him the worship that should be God’s, and thus in a manner of speaking, spit in God’s eye.
 

Sergius

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Hi. New here. First time responding. I grew up Christian in various denominations. Started Torah studies months ago. Exploring Orthodox Judaism probably more as an intellect. Several scriptures have been spiritually revealed to me. I haven’t read the whole Bible. I’m not very familiar with Judaism eschatology. A few things I’ve read about recently is Mount of Olives significance. It’s on a fault so earthquakes may happen regularly. The east gate may be showing signs of cracking so I don’t know what its future removal thoughts are. Related to a return in Revelations 3:12 sounds like Christ is given a new name similar to other christophanies in the Old Testament like Melchizadek. If Christ is returning to rule his name may be defined as ruler. Richard is powerful ruler. Jesus meant savior so that is what he did or was. The ecumenical movement sounds similar to universal worship in Zechariah 14. Is there a list of individuals making messianic claims currently? Thank you.
 

Behold

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…then turn around and believe that a blood-thirsty, warmongering, Islamic leader

The fact is....... Netanyhu, has refrained for many years from simply destroying the Islamic parasites who have infested Iran and turned it into a Human torture machine that creates the entire middle east to be enslaved, other then Israel.
Its because of His respect and admiration and concern for the Iranian PEOPLE, that has kept Netanyahu from simply usng a few small NUKES to turn that place into a sheet of super heated GLASS..
Understand?
Israel has NUKES.......so, they dont have to waste their Soldiers lives fighing these devils........but Netanyahu has chosen this hard and costly path regarding His own people, because its the most humanitarian, and will save the most ARAB LIVES, in the long run.

Netanyahu, has always tried to make peace with these devils, but, see, the issue is, you can't make a lasting peace with Islam, because Islam is designed by the Devil to cause unrest, chaos, and murder.
So, for Israel, its fight or die........and once Oct 7 2023 arrived and Iran decided to invade Israel, (using their proxy soldiers) and torture and murder entire familes including those who slept in their beds at home.. (while filming it on their cell phones) ...then Israel has since that very day pledged with their own soldiers blood to destroy ALL THOSE who were a part of this Allah encouraged massacre....and that includes ending the lives of all the Mullahs, the Generals, and ALL the soldiers, who participated in the planning and the actual murders, themselves..
And this will continue at a much faster rate/pace now that President Trump has concluded the same is the only REAL solution, which is of course the truth.
President Trump of course, will try to "make a deal" with the currently targeted to die next Islamic Religious NUT that is left who is trying to govern Iran and all the Proxies, but it wont matter, as these religious fanatic Islamic ARABS will never stop trying to kill all the Jews. (and all the Americans and Australians and Brits and anything else that won't submit to Fake Allah and his false prophet and Sharia Law".

A.) You can't make peace with EVIL......and Islam is EVIL, and produces nothing but.... more of it.

Rev 22:20
 
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Douggg

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@Sergius

The Jews (Judaism) view of the end times is that their King of Israel messiah will arrive (someone other than Jesus in their view).

The Jews also believe that Elijah will return and be a part of preparing Jewish families for the messianic age.

The Jews believe that the messiah will be a part of rebuilding the temple.

The Jews believe that once the messiah comes there is be universal knowledge regarding the One True God.

And that the messiah will part of what Jews (Judaism) call the final redemption - i.e. the final compete regathering of Jews from around the world into the land of Israel.

The Jews also believe that any negative prophecies in the bible involving them can be avoided.
 

Sergius

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I don’t know if the Prince in Ezekiel’s vision is that messiah. But I think he appears after the prophetic temple is built. The prince is not responsible for building it. If it’s a physical temple. Almost sounding like build it then he will appear. Several prophecies throughout I suppose. I’ve seen endless debates for years.
 

Sergius

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@Sergius

The Jews (Judaism) view of the end times is that their King of Israel messiah will arrive (someone other than Jesus in their view).

The Jews also believe that Elijah will return and be a part of preparing Jewish families for the messianic age.

The Jews believe that the messiah will be a part of rebuilding the temple.

The Jews believe that once the messiah comes there is be universal knowledge regarding the One True God.

And that the messiah will part of what Jews (Judaism) call the final redemption - i.e. the final compete regathering of Jews from around the world into the land of Israel.

The Jews also believe that any negative prophecies in the bible involving them can be avoided.
So if their messiah is different from the return of Christ then does theirs oppose Christ ?
 

Trekson

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Christ won'
Hi. New here. First time responding. I grew up Christian in various denominations. Started Torah studies months ago. Exploring Orthodox Judaism probably more as an intellect. Several scriptures have been spiritually revealed to me. I haven’t read the whole Bible. I’m not very familiar with Judaism eschatology. A few things I’ve read about recently is Mount of Olives significance. It’s on a fault so earthquakes may happen regularly. The east gate may be showing signs of cracking so I don’t know what its future removal thoughts are. Related to a return in Revelations 3:12 sounds like Christ is given a new name similar to other christophanies in the Old Testament like Melchizadek. If Christ is returning to rule his name may be defined as ruler. Richard is powerful ruler. Jesus meant savior so that is what he did or was. The ecumenical movement sounds similar to universal worship in Zechariah 14. Is there a list of individuals making messianic claims currently? Thank you.
Christ won't be changing his name on earth but he may in heaven. Imo. Zech. 14 is mostly post mill and no, imo there is no one presently on the scene that seems to be making messianic claims. I don't think the a/c will come on the scene claiming to be the messiah. I think he'll let his actions speak for him and let the FP make that claim.
 

Trekson

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You sound profoundly anti-semetic. @Trekson .
The reason i say this is because what you posted is the 2023 - 2025 redundant 'tic-tok" "socail media" anti-semitic "world media" lock step mentality point of view.

Hopefully you're not one of those idiots who goes from forum to forum posting this type of mental tripe.
But, maybe you are exactly that one.
You would know...

The fact is....... Netanyhu, has refrained for many years from simply destroying the Islamic parasites who have infested Iran and turned it into a Human torture machine that creates the entire middle east to be enslaved, other then Israel.
Its because of His respect and admiration and concern for the Iranian PEOPLE, that has kept Netanyahu from simply usng a few small NUKES to turn that place into a sheet of super heated GLASS..
Understand?
Israel has NUKES.......so, they dont have to waste their Soldiers lives fighing these devils........but Netanyahu has chosen this hard and costly path regarding His own people, because its the most humanitarian, and will save the most ARAB LIVES, in the long run.

Netanyahu, has always tried to make peace with these devils, but, see, the issue is, you can't make a lasting peace with Islam, because Islam is designed by the Devil to cause unrest, chaos, and murder.
So, for Israel, its fight or die........and once Oct 7 2023 arrived and Iran decided to invade Israel, (using their proxy soldiers) and torture and murder entire familes including those who slept in their beds at home.. (while filming it on their cell phones) ...then Israel has since that very day pledged with their own soldiers blood to destroy ALL THOSE who were a part of this Allah encouraged massacre....and that includes ending the lives of all the Mullahs, the Generals, and ALL the soldiers, who participated in the planning and the actual murders, themselves..
And this will continue at a much faster rate/pace now that President Trump has concluded the same is the only REAL solution, which is of course the truth.
President Trump of course, will try to "make a deal" with the currently targeted to die next Islamic Religious NUT that is left who is trying to govern Iran and all the Proxies, but it wont matter, as these religious fanatic Islamic ARABS will never stop trying to kill all the Jews. (and all the Americans and Australians and Brits and anything else that won't submit to Fake Allah and his false prophet and Sharia Law".

A.) You can't make peace with EVIL......and Islam is EVIL, and produces nothing but.... more of it.

Rev 22:20
How is it anti-semetic to write about what Israel believes? This has been their belief for thousands of years! Maybe you should read it again because there isn't anything there at all that would be assumed to be anti-semetic!
 

Sergius

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Christ won'

Christ won't be changing his name on earth but he may in heaven. Imo. Zech. 14 is mostly post mill and no, imo there is no one presently on the scene that seems to be making messianic claims. I don't think the a/c will come on the scene claiming to be the messiah. I think he'll let his actions speak for him and let the FP make that claim.
“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, …. and I will write upon him my new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Just seems he gets a new name.

And 19:12 referring to a name. But whose name? Perhaps a person who knows who he himself is. If it was Jesus men know that name.
“His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19‬:‭12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

FP? Sorry new to acronyms.
 

Douggg

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So if their messiah is different from the return of Christ then does theirs oppose Christ ?
Yes, the Jews (Judaism) perceived messiah will be the Anti (instead of and against) Jesus the true Christ.
 

Trekson

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“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, …. and I will write upon him my new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Just seems he gets a new name.

And 19:12 referring to a name. But whose name? Perhaps a person who knows who he himself is. If it was Jesus men know that name.
“His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19‬:‭12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

FP? Sorry new to acronyms.
False Prophet, 3:12 seems to be in heaven and 19:12 he is coming "from" heaven, where he had already rec'd that name.
 

Sergius

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Yes, the Jews (Judaism) perceived messiah will be the Anti (instead of and against) Jesus the true Christ.
In Islam eschatology the return of Jesus is named Isa. And is I believe said to ally with Christianity to fight a mutual anti. I’ve wondered if that would be the Jewish messiah if he is an anti.
 

Zao is life

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What gets me is how people can read verses like…: Matt. 24:24 - "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

"I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." --John 5:43.

In the 2nd century the Jews believed Simon bar Kokhba, who led the final revolt against the Romans, was the Messiah, but the revolt was ended by Rome, and "the Messiah" died, and their messianic hopes with him.

More recently many members of that same chabad.org group you quoted (a.k.a Chabad-Lubavitch, a Jewish Kabbalistic group) all believed the group's seventh rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was the Messiah - but he too, died. Jared Kushner is very involved with that group, although wikipedia says he was raised Orthodox.

But there has been nothing new under the sun since they rejected the one and only Messiah, so they will keep looking for another who comes in his own name. One day one might claim to be the Messiah and who knows - all the Jews might just follow him.

So I can't agree or disagree with what you say but it's clear Jews who reject Christ - and many who say they believe - have a false notion of the meaning of the temple in the last days also (and their belief is shared by many Gentiles who say they believe in Christ).

The last days and the mountain of the LORD's house

-- Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you. -- John 4:21-26.

The LORD's house

-- Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. -- John 2:19-22

-- And it shall be, in the last days the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it. And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob.

And He will teach us of His ways,
and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD. -- Isaiah 2:2-5

The mountain of the LORD's house. Exalted above the hills

-- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. -- Hebrews 12:22-25.

And all nations shall flow into it

-- whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations | Gentiles? -- Romans 9:24

-- (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. -- Romans 4:17

-- And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit. -- Ephesians 2:17-22

He teaches us His ways

-- God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, -- Hebrews 1:1.

Judging among the nations

-- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as all of you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, all of you have done it unto me.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as all of you did it not to one of the least of these, all of you did it not to me. -- Extract from Matthew 25:31-46
 
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Zao is life

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When he comes against the woman in Rev. 12, he is not coming against all of Israel but only those whose eyes are opened at the abomination of desolation and have now become believing Israel and reject him as messiah and turn to Christ per Zech. 12:10. They will most likely include the 144,000 of Rev. 7.

You missed the fact that in Rev 12 he came against the woman as soon as Christ had ascended into heaven and the war which occurred in heaven had him cast out and down to the earth. He's been around on the earth ever since. Haven't you noticed? Or are you an Amillennialist?

Some confusion undoubtedly arises from misinterpreting the sequence of Ez. 37 & 38. Chapter 37 has pre-millennial significance but chapter 38 has post millennial significance

The confusion is yours, and you're showing how you misunderstand how the prophets always wrote. Ezekiel 36 & 37, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 are all pre-millennial, and in-between the attack of Gog at the close of the millennium is spoken about. This is why God's people are spoken of as the ones who see the judgment of Gog, and as the ones who bury all the corpses - which is probably all symbolic because they will most likely be walking corpses. It's the same sequence in Revelation 20.

and is the same prophecy that is repeated in Rev. 20:8.

Never mind what the names of the nations will be. Mind the fact that they were all saints who had died in Christ and rose again from the dead (immortals) but in the end rebelled after Satan was released again from the abyss. Yet fire came down from God and devoured them all.

Adam was also immortal before he sinned. Satan also told him he would not die. But Jesus said we are to fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehennah, which He also called a place where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

You're looking at very symbolic language and connecting the dots all wrong.
 
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Trekson

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You missed the fact that in Rev 12 he came against the woman as soon as Christ had ascended into heaven and the war which occurred in heaven had him cast out and down to the earth. He's been around on the earth ever since. Haven't you noticed? Or are you an Amillennialist?



The confusion is yours, and you're showing how you misunderstand how the prophets always wrote. Ezekiel 36 & 37, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 are all pre-millennial, and in-between the attack of Gog at the close of the millennium is spoken about. This is why God's people are spoken of as the ones who see the judgment of Gog, and as the ones who bury all the corpses - which is probably all symbolic because they will most likely be walking corpses. It's the same sequence in Revelation 20.



Never mind what the names of the nations will be. Mind the fact that they were all saints who had died in Christ and rose again from the dead (immortals) but in the end rebelled after Satan was released again from the abyss. Yet fire came down from God and devoured them all.

Adam was also immortal before he sinned. Satan also told him he would not die. But Jesus said we are to fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehennah, which He also called a place where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

You're looking at very symbolic language and connecting the dots all wrong.
I would say that while looking for the symbolic that doesn't exist, you're missing out on the literalness all around you. Rev. is a book of mostly unfulfilled prophecy that in most cases will have a literal fulfillment. When symbolism is used, it is explained somewhere else within the text. With the exception of Rev. 12: 1-5, everything from Rev. 6 until the end of the book has yet to be fulfilled. I understand very well how the prophets spoke and that's how I know most folks are getting it wrong because they start w/ preconceptions then try to force them into the prophecies.
 

Zao is life

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I would say that while looking for the symbolic that doesn't exist, you're missing out on the literalness all around you. Rev. is a book of mostly unfulfilled prophecy that in most cases will have a literal fulfillment. When symbolism is used, it is explained somewhere else within the text. With the exception of Rev. 12: 1-5, everything from Rev. 6 until the end of the book has yet to be fulfilled.

Revelation 12 speaks about the devil going to war against the woman after he was cast out of heaven, and then after the earth had "swallowed the flood the devil sent against the woman" - which is symbolic of something - turning his attention to "the rest of her seed, who keep the comnmandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

- which has been an ongoing thing since the 1st century, and which culminates in the dragon giving the beast his seat, his power and great authority - and the beast making war against the very same group "who keep the comnmandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and overcoming them (Rev 13:7),

and the text is unbroken - the chapter 13 chapter break was only added in 1227 A.D.

You have misread scripture again - and I doubt you yourself are able to know what is symbolic, and what the symbolism literally represents, so you can spare us the misinformation "education" - can you accurately point to where "the text explains THE SYMBOLISM of the flood sent out after the woman, and the earth swallowing up the flood"?

With the exception of Rev. 12: 1-5, everything from Rev. 6 until the end of the book has yet to be fulfilled. I understand very well how the prophets spoke and that's how I know most folks are getting it wrong because they start w/ preconceptions then try to force them into the prophecies.

Just like you also start with preconceptions and then try to force them into the text. Newsflash: With the exception of chapter 12, everything from Revelation 4 to the end of the book is talking about what is yet to be fulfilled.

Revelation chapters 4 & 15:

Both speak about twenty-four elders seated on thrones.

- The four beasts are mentioned in both passages.

- The sea of glass is mentioned in both passages.


Chapter 4: The twenty-four elders are clothed in white raiment & have crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4).

Chapter 15: Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2). *

* The same ones are seen seated on thrones in Revelation 20:4, and they are alive [zao] and reigning with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6), where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

Revelation 5:8-10 - same twenty-four elders:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Note: they will not be reigning in heaven).

THE UNVEILING OF THE SCROLL

Revelation 5:1-2

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book (scroll) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll, and to loose the seals thereof?

No one seals a blank scroll
- the prophecies were written in the scroll, which was then sealed with seven seals.
The loosening of the 7th seal opens the book (causes the scroll to unroll).

The opening of the seals are "unveilings" (revelations) that unveil the events written in the scroll that were previously hidden to the knowledge and understanding of the churches of Jesus Christ. They are not themselves the prophesied events written about in the scroll.

- Jesus unveils them. That's why it's called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev 1:1)

- and if you don't know that the events are written in the scroll, then you won't understand the symbolism seen in the seals.​
 
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Trekson

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Revelation 12 speaks about the devil going to war against the woman after he was cast out of heaven, and then after the earth had "swallowed the flood the devil sent against the woman" - which is symbolic of something - turning his attention to "the rest of her seed, who keep the comnmandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

- which has been an ongoing thing since the 1st century, and which culminates in the dragon giving the beast his seat, his power and great authority - and the beast making war against the very same group "who keep the comnmandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and overcoming them (Rev 13:7),

and the text is unbroken - the chapter 13 chapter break was only added in 1227 A.D.

You have misread scripture again - and I doubt you yourself are able to know what is symbolic, and what the symbolism literally represents, so you can spare us the misinformation "education" - can you accurately point to where "the text explains THE SYMBOLISM of the flood sent out after the woman, and the earth swallowing up the flood"?



Just like you also start with preconceptions and then try to force them into the text. Newsflash: With the exception of chapter 12, everything from Revelation 4 to the end of the book is talking about what is yet to be fulfilled.

Revelation chapters 4 & 15:

Both speak about twenty-four elders seated on thrones.

- The four beasts are mentioned in both passages.

- The sea of glass is mentioned in both passages.


Chapter 4: The twenty-four elders are clothed in white raiment & have crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4).

Chapter 15: Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2). *

* The same ones are seen seated on thrones in Revelation 20:4, and they are alive [zao] and reigning with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6), where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

Revelation 5:8-10 - same twenty-four elders:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Note: they will not be reigning in heaven).

THE UNVEILING OF THE SCROLL

Revelation 5:1-2

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book (scroll) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll, and to loose the seals thereof?

No one seals a blank scroll
- the prophecies were written in the scroll, which was then sealed with seven seals.
The loosening of the 7th seal opens the book (causes the scroll to unroll).

The opening of the seals are "unveilings" (revelations) that unveil the events written in the scroll that were previously hidden to the knowledge and understanding of the churches of Jesus Christ. They are not themselves the prophesied events written about in the scroll.

- Jesus unveils them. That's why it's called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev 1:1)

- and if you don't know that the events are written in the scroll, then you won't understand the symbolism seen in the seals.​
 

Zao is life

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Christ was speaking of Himself, the next verse says that.

At last. You said something Christian :Thumbsup:

Is Christ the seed of Abraham? Who is His flock? Do they have a temple? Or are we the temple?
 
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