The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abrahamic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. (ex. Acts 2:17-18, 21) “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:...21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.

Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience.

You are all over the place here. You get some things right and some very wrong. You are acting as if all of the natural branches (Israelites) were cut off. No. Not true. Paul spoke of an elect remnant of believers at that time which included himself. They were not cut off. They remained in the olive tree and are also part of the church. The church is not made up of just Gentile believers, but of Jew and Gentile believers together as "one new man" and "one body" as "a holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:11-22). That's what the grafting in of the wild branches represents. Wild branches were grafted in with the natural branches that were not cut off in the one good olive tree. No separation of Israelites and Gentiles. We (believers), whether Jew or Gentile, are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26-29).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They will NOT continue in the unbelief.

Some of them will, as has always been the case, and some won't, as also has always been the case.

Many misunderstand the following verse...

Romans 11:23 they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Dispenationalists and other futurists think this is talking about the entire nation of Israel being grafted back in at some point in the future. No, that is not at all what this verse is saying. You need to read all of Romans 11 to see the context.

Paul indicated that he wanted to lead some who were cut off because of unbelief in his time to salvation. So, there were some Israelites in even in Paul's time who did not continue in unbelief and were grafted in again.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

In this passage Paul is talking about his fellow Israelites who had been blinded in his time and he asked if they stumbled beyond recovery and said that they did not. So, even though the unbelieving Israelites were cut off, they were not cut off permanently. They would have the opportunity to be grafted in again if they believed the gospel and some of them were grafted in again after putting their faith in Christ.

Millennial ethnic Israel will "all" be born again believers in Christ. The church has an end date, Israel does not. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.

This is total nonsense that is not taught anywhere in scripture. In order to come to that conclusion you have to deny that the following passage is about the 2nd coming of Christ even though it clearly is.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

That there will be ultimate unity between the two is the goal

Already done. Accomplished by the blood of Christ. Have you never read Ephesians 2:11-22?

 

[Trekson]

That's not Paul's description.

I believe Paul.

Not everyone is given the whole prophetic story. I believe Paul too and in Rom. 11:25-32 he saw the enddate of the church and the return to the natural branches

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, what you say about the rapture is true but I am speaking about after the rapture but it is very possible that God will set some of Israel aside, a remnant of human believers to start the millennium with. The church is "not" Israel. Replacement theory is a false doctrine.

You speak a lot of nonsense. There is no "replacement theory" except in your imagination. You said yourself that there are two Israels, right? With one being spiritual Israel? Look at the description of spiritual Israel in Romans 9:6-8. It is made up of those who are the children of God and of the promise who are counted as the spiritual seed of Abraham, right? Is that not the same description of those who are in the church? Yes, it is (Galatians 3:26-29). So, spiritual Israel is the church. It does not replace national Israel. It is a separate entity. So, take your replacement theory and throw it in the trash bin because it's complete garbage.

 

[Trekson]

Here is God's Plan for the nation of Israel, articulated and fulfilled by Jesus Himself, beginning at His First Coming:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

AKA His Church.

Matthew 16
18 ...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

That is true for today but Jesus tells a different story about tomorrow. The day when Matt. 23:39 will be fulfilled by the nation of Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What does replacement theology replace?

Does it replace Israel's physical DNA? No

Does it replace Israel's opportunity to receive Christ? No

So what does replacement theology replace?

Those who make accusations of others believing in "replacement theology" have apparently replaced their ability to think rationally with an inability to think rationally.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 11:26-27 is speaking of "all Israel", and Paul has previously identified "all Israel" for us.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Great job of showing the overarching narrative that Paul told in Romans 9 to 11. Many people do not take Romans 9 and 10 into account when interpreting Romans 11, so they miss the context of what Paul is talking about in Romans 11. It's really kind of a shame that there are any chapter breaks between Romans 9 and 11. As a result of people ignoring Romans 9 and 10 when interpreting Romans 11, they have Paul contradicting himself by first saying that a remnant of national Israel would be saved (Romans 9:27) and then later saying that all of national Israel would be saved, as if he changed his mind after he wrote Romans 9:27 and had to correct himself in Romans 11:26. No, only all of spiritual Israel is and will be saved, not all of national Israel. As Paul taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not Paul's description.

I believe Paul.

I agree. That Paul guy knew what he was talking about and we can trust him.

 

[Zao is life]

There will come a time when the remnant of Israel is the "all" of Israel that gets saved.

LOL. The remnant of Israel + Gentiles grafted in among them are already the "all" of Israel that is saved. Their salvation is in Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

Not everyone is given the whole prophetic story. I believe Paul too and in Rom. 11:25-32 he saw the enddate of the church and the return to the natural branches

There is nothing about the church ending in those verses, or anywhere in the bible. There's also nothing about "the return to the natural branches" either.

 

[covenantee]

That is true for today but Jesus tells a different story about tomorrow. The day when Matt. 23:39 will be fulfilled by the nation of Israel.

Matthew 23:39 will be fulfilled by Jesus Himself at His Second Coming. There is not a hint of the "nation of Israel" in the verse.

Rather, in verse 38, Jesus foretold the judgment and desolation which would befall unbelieving Israel. It began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

And it will culminate at Jesus' Second Coming, when all unbelievers of all time will acknowledge Him, then be cast into hell.

Unbelieving Gentiles.

And unbelieving Jews. Matthew 23:33,39

 

[Trekson]

LOL. The remnant of Israel + Gentiles grafted in among them are already the "all" of Israel that is saved. Their salvation is in Christ.

That won't change but what is so hard about believing there will come a time when the nation of Israel will consist of christians? It's been God's plan from the beginning. The time of gentiles being grafted in has an end date.

 

[Trekson]

There is nothing about the church ending in those verses, or anywhere in the bible. There's also nothing about "the return to the natural branches" either.

There is that pesky word "until" in Rom. 11:25 which makes a big change in the narrative. One has to look at the whole of prophecy to see where a particular prophecy might have it's place.

 

[Trekson]

Matthew 23:39 will be fulfilled by Jesus Himself at His Second Coming. There is not a hint of the "nation of Israel" in the verse.

Rather, in verse 38, Jesus foretold the judgment and desolation which would befall unbelieving Israel. It began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

And it will culminate at Jesus' Second Coming, when all unbelievers of all time will acknowledge Him, then be cast into hell.

Unbelieving Gentiles.

And unbelieving Jews. Matthew 23:33,39

In Matthew 23:39 Jesus is prophesying about Israel and the true triumphal entry into Jerusalem, post Armageddon, fulfilling the last three goals of Dan. 9:24. I agree about vs. 38. I also agree that the ToJT will culminate in the context of the 70th week but it will be before Christ's 2nd coming. There will be a thousand yrs. between His coming and the GWTJ. The sheep and goat judgment will only consist of those alive who survived the 70th week after Armageddon.

 

[Zao is life]

what is so hard about believing there will come a time when the nation of Israel will consist of christians?

What is so hard about believing that God's only elect nation of Israel is in Christ and consists of Christians?

Your words are an insult to all the Jewish Christians who live in Israel - a good few thousand of them - and outside Israel, today.

Your words are also an insult to all the Jews who became Christians over the last 2,000 years.

In fact, your words are an insult to the apostles and all Jewish Christians of the first century who were persecuted for their faith by both Jew and Rome alike - you know? The remnant of the nation of Israel - who are called Israel in Romans 11?

It's clearly you alone who does not believe there is a nation called Israel that consists of Christians. The Bible teaches otherwise.

What's so hard about believing that the nation of China will consist of Christians?

What's so hard about believing that the nation of Indonesia will consist of Christians?

What's so hard about believing that the nation of Libya will consist of Christians?

Are all Americans, Europeans, Australians etc Christians? Or is it just a remnant in each nation?

What's so hard about believing that the nation of Israel would have a remnant - and has had a remnant since the 1st century, till now? ​

It's been God's plan from the beginning. The time of gentiles being grafted in has an end date.

Are you calling Jesus a liar?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:16-19).

You are not only calling Jesus a liar, you are also calling His apostles liars:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).

This is the end date for Jew and Gentile:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Peter 3:9-10).

 

[Trekson]

What is so hard about believing that God's only elect nation of Israel is in Christ and consists of Christians?

Your words are an insult to all the Jewish Christians who live in Israel - a good few thousand of them - and outside Israel, today.

Your words are also an insult to all the Jews who became Christians over the last 2,000 years.

In fact, your words are an insult to the apostles and all Jewish Christians of the first century who were persecuted for their faith by both Jew and Rome alike - you know? The remnant of the nation of Israel - who are called Israel in Romans 11?

It's clearly you alone who does not believe there is a nation called Israel that consists of Christians. The Bible teaches otherwise.

What's so hard about believing that the nation of China will consist of Christians?

What's so hard about believing that the nation of Indonesia will consist of Christians?

What's so hard about believing that the nation of Libya will consist of Christians?

Are all Americans, Europeans, Australians etc Christians? Or is it just a remnant in each nation?

What's so hard about believing that the nation of Israel would have a remnant - and has had a remnant since the 1st century, till now? ​

Are you calling Jesus a liar?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:16-19).

You are not only calling Jesus a liar, you are also calling His apostles liars:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).

This is the end date for Jew and Gentile:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Peter 3:9-10).

Get back to me when you learn the difference between spiritual Israel and physical Israel.

 

[Zao is life]

Get back to me when you learn the difference between spiritual Israel and physical Israel.

I know the difference. You don't.

Get back to me when you can answer which one of the two is God's elect - i.e is it those in Christ and the Gentiles in Chrst joined to them? Or the other group?

PS: Here's the clue: God does not have many elect sons of Abraham - He only has one elect son of Abraham, who is before Abraham. He is the King of Israel. The Lion of the tribe of Judah (THE Lion of the Jews).

 

[covenantee]

In Matthew 23:39 Jesus is prophesying about Israel and the true triumphal entry into Jerusalem, post Armageddon, fulfilling the last three goals of Dan. 9:24. I agree about vs. 38. I also agree that the ToJT will culminate in the context of the 70th week but it will be before Christ's 2nd coming. There will be a thousand yrs. between His coming and the GWTJ. The sheep and goat judgment will only consist of those alive who survived the 70th week after Armageddon.

There was one triumphal entry; there will be no more.

The historic orthodox Christian Church is unanimous in recognizing that Christ fulfilled the entirety of Daniel 9:24 by His Perfect Complete Sacrifice in the 70th week at Calvary.

Daniel declares "Seventy weeks are determined". That includes the 70th, leaving no possibility of its decapitated orphaned undetermined postponement.

The sheep and goat judgment will consist of all believers and unbelievers of all time.

 

[Trekson]

I know the difference. You don't.

Get back to me when you can answer which one of the two is God's elect - i.e is it those in Christ and the Gentiles in Chrst joined to them? Or the other group?

PS: Here's the clue: God does not have many elect sons of Abraham - He only has one elect son of Abraham, who is before Abraham. He is the King of Israel. The Lion of the tribe of Judah (THE Lion of the Jews).

Both for different agendas but they will be in Christ, too.

 

[Trekson]

There was one triumphal entry; there will be no more.

The historic orthodox Christian Church is unanimous in recognizing that Christ fulfilled the entirety of Daniel 9:24 by His Perfect Complete Sacrifice in the 70th week at Calvary.

Daniel declares "Seventy weeks are determined". That includes the 70th, leaving no possibility of its decapitated orphaned undetermined postponement.

The sheep and goat judgment will consist of all believers and unbelievers of all time.

The first triumphal entry was a type for the future one to come. It wasn't that triumphant if the same people that welcomed Him in thru the eastern gate, turned a around and had him crucified just a few days later. The historical orthodox church was flat out wrong because Dan. 9:24-27 is "not" a messianic prophecy and vs. 24 wasn't for Messiah to accomplish, it is for Israel and Jerusalem to accomplish just as the scriptures read. Historical peoples really had little understanding of future prophecy because they were not given to them to understand. They guesstimated on possibilities but that's the best that can be said. God will fulfill the 70 week in His timing, not ours. No gap = no church. Sorry, but you err about the judgment of Matt. 25.