The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dan. 12:4 tells us that in the latter days, knowledge will increase. That includes both secular and prophetic knowledge.

According to scripture the last days began long ago already. Peter referred to what was going on during the day of Pentecost long ago as being part of the last days that Joel prophesied about in Joel 2:28-32. The last days began long ago and continue up until the last day when Jesus returns, the dead are resurrected (John 6:40) and unbelievers are judged (John 12:48).

Why would there be a prophecy about the increase of meaningless secular knowledge? No, it's about the increase in understanding and wisdom regarding God's word and His plans because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the writing of the New Testament which contains explanations of what the Old Testament prophecies were about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, he was saying "who" determined them. However, it's also God who determines "when and how" he will fulfill them and the division within the context shows it's not an uninterrupted 70 week period.

So, you put a gap between the end of the first 7 weeks and beginning of the next 62 weeks (between the 7th and 8th weeks) then the way you do between the 69th and 70th weeks? Just because they are listed separately implies there is a gap of time between them? That's quite a stretch.

 

[covenantee]

Dan. 12:4 tells us that in the latter days, knowledge will increase. That includes both secular and prophetic knowledge. Do you not think that that the generation that sees "all these things fulfilled" won't have a better grasp on prophecy then those who were over a thousand years away from their actual fulfillments? There are some prophecies that had to reach a certain level of technology to be understood, some things that those of the 1700 hundred years wouldn't even be able to begin to comprehend.

How does that change Daniel's declaration that 70 weeks were determined?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How does that change Daniel's declaration that 70 weeks were determined?

It's amazing to see how dispensationalists go out of their way to get around the fact that a determined time period of 70 weeks (490 years) was decreed for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Dispensationalists think they have the authority to change the fulfillment of the 70th week to some undetermined time despite God determining that time to be 70 weeks (490 years) from the time the first week started. Dispensationalists just have no conscience about twisting scripture to make it say that they want it to say. It's truly unbelievable.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, he was saying "who" determined them. However, it's also God who determines "when and how" he will fulfill them and the division within the context shows it's not an uninterrupted 70 week period.

There is no such division. The 70th week was determined in exactly the same manner as the previous 69 weeks.

And fulfilled completely and perfectly by the Lamb of God.

 

[Trekson]

How does that change Daniel's declaration that 70 weeks were determined?

The word "determined" means to "decree" something which means ordained. So, the 70 weeks were ordained for Israel to complete the goals of Dan. 9:24 that were given to them. God, knowing that Israel would fail, used their rejection to bring the gospel to the gentiles. Although Israel may have failed, God's plans don't, so God determined that the 70th week will be on hold until Israel, as a nation are ready to accept Christ as their Messiah and it is prophesied they will. When that happens than the last three goals of vs. 24 will begin to be fulfilled and it begins w/ bringing in the everlasting righteousness (Christ) of which the triumphal entry was but a type of the time when Israel will sincerely believe it thus opening the door for Matt. 23:39's fulfillment. "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." That hasn't happened yet on a national level..,.but we can be assured it will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The word "determined" means to "decree" something which means ordained. So, the 70 weeks were ordained for Israel to complete the goals of Dan. 9:24 that were given to them. God, knowing that Israel would fail, used their rejection to bring the gospel to the gentiles. Although Israel may have failed, God's plans don't, so God determined that the 70th week will be on hold until Israel, as a nation are ready to accept Christ as their Messiah and it is prophesied they will. When that happens than the last three goals of vs. 24 will begin to be fulfilled and it begins w/ bringing in the everlasting righteousness (Christ) of which the triumphal entry was but a type of the time when Israel will sincerely believe it thus opening the door for Matt. 23:39's fulfillment. "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." That hasn't happened yet on a national level..,.but we can be assured it will.

How do you figure that "everlasting righteousness" will be brought in when Jesus returns when you also believe that some unrighteousness will occur after that during the thousand years and a whole lot of unrighteousness after that during Satan's little season? If you're going to interpret everlasting righteousness in a literal sense like that, then it would not be brought in until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, which you think occurs 1,000+ years after Christ returns.

 

[Trekson]

There is no such division. The 70th week was determined in exactly the same manner as the previous 69 weeks.

And fulfilled completely and perfectly by the Lamb of God.

Not so, but I was wondering, if I was right and you were wrong, how would this affect your christianity in any way? It shouldn't affect it all.
I have a prophecy bible that has comments throughout it, leaning towards the pretrib view, which I personally don't believe in. However, it also has a section that lists and explains the 44 main prophecies of Christ that were fulfilled w/ His 1st advent. The only part of Daniel listed as fulfilled is Daniel 9:25-26, which I agree with.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so, but I was wondering, if I was right and you were wrong, how would this affect your christianity in any way? It shouldn't affect it all.
I have a prophecy bible that has comments throughout it, leaning towards the pretrib view, which I personally don't believe in. However, it also has a section that lists and explains the 44 main prophecies of Christ that were fulfilled w/ His 1st advent. The only part of Daniel listed as fulfilled is Daniel 9:25-26, which I agree with.

How can that be the only part of Daniel that has been fulfilled? That makes no sense. For example, you don't think any of Daniel 2 is fulfilled despite Daniel telling King Nebuchadnezzar that he was the head of gold in his dream and mentioned that three other kingdoms would follow his (the Babylonian empire), which turned out to be the Media-Persian, Greek and Roman empires?

Daniel 2:36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. 39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.

 

[covenantee]

Not so, but I was wondering, if I was right and you were wrong, how would this affect your christianity in any way? It shouldn't affect it all.
I have a prophecy bible that has comments throughout it, leaning towards the pretrib view, which I personally don't believe in. However, it also has a section that lists and explains the 44 main prophecies of Christ that were fulfilled w/ His 1st advent. The only part of Daniel listed as fulfilled is Daniel 9:25-26, which I agree with.

By whom were those comments written, and when?

Why was Daniel 9:27 ignored, which references Messiah the Prince, the Covenant Confirmer of Matthew 26:28?

Your commentator knoweth not Daniel.

 

[claninja]

God determines when and how He will fulfill it. If one doesn't think God is fulfilling prophecy the way you expect Him to do, take it up w/ Him. If you're sincere enough, he may show you the truth.

as Christians, how do we determine when God determines something is fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

 

[covenantee]

The word "determined" means to "decree" something which means ordained.

It also means "cut off", thus it was 70 weeks which were cut off, not dispensationalism's 69.

So, the 70 weeks were ordained for Israel to complete the goals of Dan. 9:24 that were given to them.

The 70 weeks were decreed and cut off for Christ to complete the entirety of Daniel 9:24.

God, knowing that Israel would fail, used their rejection to bring the gospel to the gentiles.

God, knowing that His Son would succeed, used His success to bring the gospel first to Israel, then to the entire world.

Although Israel may have failed, God's plans don't, so God determined that the 70th week will be on hold until Israel, as a nation are ready to accept Christ as their Messiah and it is prophesied they will.

Messiah succeeded, and God's plan for the fulfillment of the 70th week succeeded, to the benefit of the entire world, beginning 2,000 years ago.

That hasn't happened yet on a national level..,.but we can be assured it will.

There is no "national level". A nation is comprised of its individuals, and it is with individuals that God deals. It is individuals who choose to accept or reject His Salvation. Only a remnant of Israel's individuals will ultimately choose to accept it. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27.

 

[Trekson]

By whom were those comments written, and when?

Why was Daniel 9:27 ignored, which references Messiah the Prince, the Covenant Confirmer of Matthew 26:28?

Your commentator knoweth not Daniel.

Sorry, but Christ isn't anywhere near vs. 27. Who is the last person mentioned before vs. 27? Answer: the prince to come which isn't Christ because by this time He was already in heaven and no it wasn't Titus. If you truly want to be honest with yourself than Dan. 11:22-23 should clarify to you that the "prince of the covenant" isn't Christ. The word 'league" means covenant!

 

[Trekson]

as Christians, how do we determine when God determines something is fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

By all the descriptions given about what the fulfillments will look like, and they may be from different books by different men. All the prophecies in both the OT and the NT are one complete narrative but not necessarily in the order they will be fulfilled. But a person can take a simple topic and find out that Daniel, Ezekial, Jeremiah, Hosea, Ezra, Paul and Christ are all speaking about the same thing but from different perspectives, each adding a detail or two that the others don't mention. For example, without knowing the prophecies of Daniel, one couldn't understand that they are the base that Rev. 13 builds upon, thus come up with a false notion that is "not" grounded in prophetic truth.

 

[Trekson]

It also means "cut off", thus it was 70 weeks which were cut off, not dispensationalism's 69.

The 70 weeks were decreed and cut off for Christ to complete the entirety of Daniel 9:24.

God, knowing that His Son would succeed, used His success to bring the gospel first to Israel, then to the entire world.

Messiah succeeded, and God's plan for the fulfillment of the 70th week succeeded, to the benefit of the entire world, beginning 2,000 years ago.

There is no "national level". A nation is comprised of its individuals, and it is with individuals that God deals. It is individuals who choose to accept or reject His Salvation. Only a remnant of Israel's individuals will ultimately choose to accept it. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27.

Okay, you keep going w/ that if it makes you happy.

 

[Bladerunner]

So, you put a gap between the end of the first 7 weeks and beginning of the next 62 weeks (between the 7th and 8th weeks) then the way you do between the 69th and 70th weeks? Just because they are listed separately implies there is a gap of time between them? That's quite a stretch.

No really, there are many time gaps in the Bible. The 2 weeks and 67 weeks is not necessarily a time gap but rather a period of time it took for Israel to rebuild 1st temple after 490 of captivity. That would make it 14 years it took for the temple to be rebuilt. This period of time counted toward the whole 69 weeks which leads up to one day, a Sunday when Jesus Road into Jerusalem (April 6, 32 AD). If one pays careful attention and reads it literally, there is a gap of undetermined time between 69 weeks and the 70th week. For in Dan 9:27, It starts of with the enforcement of a covenant of Israel with many (Death and Hell, (Isa 28:14-16)) Yet, we find out in the NT that the man of sin,son of perdition can not publically known until the falling away of the restrainer, the 'Holy Spirit within' 'every justified person (alive and dead from 50 days after the Resurrection of Christ). Here there is also a gap of time where the "antichrist " must be into considerable power on the earth in order to enforce this covenant. how long unknown, but my speculation would be 38 to 40 years...a prophecy pattern of the time in the wildeness. Either way the Rapture of the His Church prior to this being publically know is imminent but will happen before the name of the antichrist is known.

​

 

[covenantee]

Sorry, but Christ isn't anywhere near vs. 27. Who is the last person mentioned before vs. 27? Answer: the prince to come which isn't Christ because by this time He was already in heaven and no it wasn't Titus. If you truly want to be honest with yourself than Dan. 11:22-23 should clarify to you that the "prince of the covenant" isn't Christ. The word 'league" means covenant!

The grammatical antecedent/referent chain of "he" in verse 27 resolves back to "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

Messiah was the Prince who came, at His first coming.

He was and is the Confirmer of the New Covenant. Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9 NASB
27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week

Matthew 26 NASB
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

 

[covenantee]

Okay, you keep going w/ that if it makes you happy.

It should make you happy too.

 

[WPM]

What evidence do you have to indicate that Zechariah 8:23 has anything to do with a time period following the return of Christ? None. You have nothing at all to back up your Premil belief except for a mistaken chronological reading of Revelation 19 and 20. Does it not concern you that nothing else in the New Testament supports Premil?

It doesn't matter to him. He is incapable of supporting any of his claimswith hard Scripture. If he says it, that is enough.

 

[Trekson]

The grammatical antecedent/referent chain of "he" in verse 27 resolves back to "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

Messiah was the Prince who came, at His first coming.

He was and is the Confirmer of the New Covenant. Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9 NASB
27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week

Matthew 26 NASB
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

It's not talking about a religious covenant.