The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[WPM]

It's not talking about a religious covenant.

Can you address the avoided rebuttals above that forbid your argument?

 

[WPM]

It's not talking about a religious covenant.

Are you a JW?

 

[Trekson]

Can you address the avoided rebuttals above that forbid your argument?

I haven't seen any rebuttles that I haven't addressed or I would have. Can you give me a post no.?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No really, there are many time gaps in the Bible.

That proves absolutely nothing when it comes to Daniel 9:24-27.

The 2 weeks and 67 weeks is not necessarily a time gap but rather a period of time it took for Israel to rebuild 1st temple after 490 of captivity.

You need to slow down and think about what you're saying before posting. You said "2 weeks and 67 weeks" You mean 7 weeks and 62 weeks. And you said "490 of captivity"? You mean 70 years of captivity.

That would make it 14 years it took for the temple to be rebuilt.

Start over and read what the text actually says. The divisions are 7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week. Not 2 weeks, 67 weeks and 1 week.

This period of time counted toward the whole 69 weeks which leads up to one day, a Sunday when Jesus Road into Jerusalem (April 6, 32 AD). If one pays careful attention and reads it literally, there is a gap of undetermined time between 69 weeks and the 70th week.

No, there is not. I'm not going to take you seriously about this when you can't even see that it referred to 7 weeks and 62 weeks instead of 2 weeks and 67 weeks. You clearly are not looking at the text carefully at all.

For in Dan 9:27, It starts of with the enforcement of a covenant of Israel with many (Death and Hell, (Isa 28:14-16)) Yet, we find out in the NT that the man of sin,son of perdition can not publically known until the falling away of the restrainer, the 'Holy Spirit within' 'every justified person (alive and dead from 50 days after the Resurrection of Christ). Here there is also a gap of time where the "antichrist " must be into considerable power on the earth in order to enforce this covenant. how long unknown, but my speculation would be 38 to 40 years...a prophecy pattern of the time in the wildeness. Either way the Rapture of the His Church prior to this being publically know is imminent but will happen before the name of the antichrist is known.

Nonsense. You can't back up any of this with scripture. It all comes from your imagination.

 

[covenantee]

It's not talking about a religious covenant.

Is the New Covenant in Christ's Blood religious?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry, but Christ isn't anywhere near vs. 27. Who is the last person mentioned before vs. 27? Answer: the prince to come which isn't Christ because by this time He was already in heaven and no it wasn't Titus. If you truly want to be honest with yourself than Dan. 11:22-23 should clarify to you that the "prince of the covenant" isn't Christ. The word 'league" means covenant!

It says the people of the prince destroyed the city and the sanctuary and that happened in 70 AD, so the prince cannot possibly be some future antichrist. The prince has to be someone who was the prince of the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary at the time that it happened. There is a sense in which the Jews were responsible for the destruction of the city and the sanctuary because that occurred as a result of them rejecting Christ. So, that is why it's perfectly reasonable to see the prince in verse 27 as being the same prince mentioned previously which is the Messiah. Otherwise, it would have to be the leader of the Roman armies who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, which was Titus. Either way, it cannot be some future prince who would not be the prince of the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary long ago.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn't matter to him. He is incapable of supporting any of his claimswith hard Scripture. If he says it, that is enough.

He is just like most other dispensationalists in that way. Incapable of making any coherent arguments using scripture. He thinks his own words are equivalent to God's word. Sad.

 

[covenantee]

No really, there are many time gaps in the Bible. The 2 weeks and 67 weeks is not necessarily a time gap but rather a period of time it took for Israel to rebuild 1st temple after 490 of captivity. That would make it 14 years it took for the temple to be rebuilt. This period of time counted toward the whole 69 weeks which leads up to one day, a Sunday when Jesus Road into Jerusalem (April 6, 32 AD). If one pays careful attention and reads it literally, there is a gap of undetermined time between 69 weeks and the 70th week. For in Dan 9:27, It starts of with the enforcement of a covenant of Israel with many (Death and Hell, (Isa 28:14-16)) Yet, we find out in the NT that the man of sin,son of perdition can not publically known until the falling away of the restrainer, the 'Holy Spirit within' 'every justified person (alive and dead from 50 days after the Resurrection of Christ). Here there is also a gap of time where the "antichrist " must be into considerable power on the earth in order to enforce this covenant. how long unknown, but my speculation would be 38 to 40 years...a prophecy pattern of the time in the wildeness. Either way the Rapture of the His Church prior to this being publically know is imminent but will happen before the name of the antichrist is known.

​

"He" in verse 27 resolves back grammatically to "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

So how can "He" be the antichrist?

 

[WPM]

I haven't seen any rebuttles that I haven't addressed or I would have. Can you give me a post no.?

Not true!

I will repeat 1 question you avoided. Please address:

Show us Scripture, and supporting Scripture, including in Revelation 20, or anywhere else in the Bible, the teaches what you are promoting that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"?

 

[Trekson]

Not true!

I will repeat 1 question you avoided. Please address:

Show us Scripture, and supporting Scripture, including in Revelation 20, or anywhere else in the Bible, the teaches what you are promoting that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"?

I did address that one, w/ Zech. 8:23 showing "how" they will be acting as the church. Why would you want to be here anyway, heaven is going to be way better?

Is the New Covenant in Christ's Blood religious?

Of course, but that is nowhere in sight. The only mention of the Messiah in that context is that Messiah arrives and dies within a few days of the last part of the 69th week.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did address that one, w/ Zech. 8:23 showing "how" they will be acting as the church. Why would you want to be here anyway, heaven is going to be way better?

Zechariah 8:23 says absolutely nothing to indicate that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"? If that's all you have to support your belief, then you really have nothing.

Of course, but that is nowhere in sight. The only mention of the Messiah in that context is that Messiah arrives and dies within a few days of the last part of the 69th week.

Why are you so dishonest with scripture? It does not say that He "dies within a few days of the last part of the 69th week.". It says He would be cut off AFTER the 69th week. Tell me why you have no conscience about twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say? How do you think that is acceptable?

 

[Trekson]

Not true!

I will repeat 1 question you avoided. Please address:

Show us Scripture, and supporting Scripture, including in Revelation 20, or anywhere else in the Bible, the teaches what you are promoting that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"?

Dealing w/ Rev. 20, There are no verses that declare either the church or Israel are there. Imo, vs 4 isn't about a timing, it's about "where" they came from. So, I believe those on the thrones are the raptured/resurrected church, it's possible that those resurrected standing before the thrones are resurrected Israel per Ez. 37 and the "last day" mention in John 6 which is referencing the last day when Christ fulfills the feast of tabernacles. It should be assumed that those of 'the camp of the saints" in vs. 9 to be Israel because that word 'camp" is never used describing the church but dozens of times describing Israel. I also believe that parts of Zech. 14 are post mill because after the description given in vs. 5 (the judgment of Rev.20:8-9, imo). Zech. 14:6-8 describes the post mill NJ as found in Rev. 21:22-Rev. 22:5.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dealing w/ Rev. 20, There are no verses that declare either the church or Israel are there. Imo, vs 4 isn't about a timing, it's about "where" they came from. So, I believe those on the thrones are the raptured/resurrected church, it's possible that those resurrected standing before the thrones are resurrected Israel per Ez. 37 and the "last day" mention in John 6 which is referencing the last day when Christ fulfills the feast of tabernacles. It should be assumed that those of 'the camp of the saints" in vs. 9 to be Israel because that word 'camp" is never used describing the church but dozens of times describing Israel. I also believe that parts of Zech. 14 is post mill because after the description given in vs. 5 (the judgment of Rev.20:8-9, imo. Zech. 14:6-8 describes the post mill NJ as found in Rev. 21:22-Rev. 22:5.

 

[claninja]

By all the descriptions given about what the fulfillments will look like, and they may be from different books by different men

But different conclusions are often drawn on these descriptions of fulfillment, and oftentimes these differences can be due to factors such as culture, education, geographical location, socio economic, race, religious denomination, etc…..

So how can a Christian concretely and objectively determine what oracles God has determined as fulfilled or still yet to be fulfilled?

Would it be fair to say that one way to determine if an oracle is fulfilled, is if the authors of the OT and/or NT declare something is fulfilled?

 

[Bladerunner]

"He" in verse 27 resolves back grammatically to "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

So how can "He" be the antichrist?

The antecedent of the 'he' in Dan 9:27... is the 'prince who shall come' not the messiah.

 

[covenantee]

The antecedent of the 'he' in Dan 9:27... is the 'prince who shall come' not the messiah.

And the antecedent of the "prince who shall come" is "Messiah the Prince".

 

[Trekson]

But different conclusions are often drawn on these descriptions of fulfillment, and oftentimes these differences can be due to factors such as culture, education, geographical location, socio economic, race, religious denomination, etc…..

So how can a Christian concretely and objectively determine what oracles God has determined as fulfilled or still yet to be fulfilled?

Would it be fair to say that one way to determine if an oracle is fulfilled, is if the authors of the OT and/or NT declare something is fulfilled?

Yes, there are a few verses the speak about Christ fulfilling all the prophecies concerning "Him", Lk. 24:44, maybe a couple of others but there is still a lot more to go.

 

[Zao is life]

Zechariah 8:23 says absolutely nothing to indicate that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"? If that's all you have to support your belief, then you really have nothing.


Why are you so dishonest with scripture? It does not say that He "dies within a few days of the last part of the 69th week.". It says He would be cut off AFTER the 69th week. Tell me why you have no conscience about twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say? How do you think that is acceptable?

True. The one Jew whose sleeve the nations have taken, and will take hold of, is the only Jew who can save them and heal them. Dispensationlism exalts the Jews - who unlike the Son of God, are merely created human beings like us.​

 

[Trekson]

True. The one Jew whose sleeve the nations have taken, and will take hold of, is the only Jew who can save them and heal them. Dispensationlism exalts the Jews - who unlike the Son of God, are merely created human beings like us.​

No, they don't, we just see prophecy speaking of different destinies for Israel and the church once the church age is over, but the way of salvation will never change.

 

[claninja]

Yes, there are a few verses the speak about Christ fulfilling all the prophecies concerning "Him", Lk. 24:44, maybe a couple of others but there is still a lot more to go.

Indeed, there are verses that speak about Christ fulfilling OT prophecies concerning him (Luke 24:44). There is a verse that state the OT prophets spoke about the apostles’ days (acts 3:24). There is also a verse declaring the destruction of Jerusalem fulfills ALL that is written regarding vengeance (Luke 21:22).


But beyond those verses, how do we concretely determine when a prophecy is fulfilled or not yet fulfilled according to God’s standards? maybe elaborate on your previous post about “descriptions”?