PS95
Well-Known Member
Why does your tag say these are your personal beliefs as if you are not fed doctrines by your slave parable men since you are Jehovah's witness? as is your tailgater buddy, tazzjazz and possibly Keith. WHY THE INCOGNITO JWS?
The Garden Of Eden
- Thread starter Eyeball Dub
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Agree. It’s impossible to predict how someone reads it. I’ve heard it as literal seas no more and as you pointed out. It’s hopeful how you have quoted it. No more raging of the sea. Ephesians 4:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
This one is harder for me to see your point.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The difficulty lies in what “the church” became after the death of the apostles...Jesus foretold that the devil would sow seeds of a counterfeit “Christianity” (the wheat and the tares) “while men were sleeping”....whether this was speaking about the apostles “sleeping in death” (1 Thess 4:13-14) or whether this describes the spiritual drowsiness that engulfed the church under the watch of apostate Roman Catholicism, really doesn’t matter.
This “Christianity” was certainly a departure from the things Christ taught. The apostles spoke of men infiltrating the church and “not treating the flock with tenderness”. (Acts 20:29-30)
Catholic history confirms that...shamefully.
God’s original plan for the human family on earth was derailed by a rebel spirit who hijacked the human race for his own selfish ambitions. He lured the woman with a lie, which in turn lured her husband into the trap he set for him. Human life from that point on was going to be a life lesson none of us will ever forget. Sin and death were foreign elements in their lives, but the children born to Adam and his wife would not know the significance of what their parents lost. This life is all they would know...and God allowed them to experience life without his direct protection and care. He would leave them to their own devices, but always with his eye on things so that his purpose was always served by what he allowed. (Think of Job)
God gave rulership of the human race over to the one they chose to obey. (Luke 4:5-7) They could not be told the benefits of obedience to their Creator, so he chose to show them the consequences of their disobedience. A life lesson that would test all of God’s free willed children, both in heaven and on earth.
This accomplished two things...it was going to demonstrate the the folly of thinking that any of us can disobey God as our rightful Sovereign and get away with it....and it would reinforce the rightfulness of obeying God and trusting in his ability to give us the best life here, on a beautifully prepared planet.....the work of his own hands, providing for our every need.
There was no natural cause of death mentioned to Adam....death was only a penalty for disobedience.
Consider what they lost....imagine the culture shock of being evicted from paradise into the harsh wilderness outside the garden, where everything was at their fingertips....now they had to grow their own food on ground that was cursed. Everything now would remind them of what they lost....their children would know about the garden of Eden because there were angelic guards at the entrance “guarding the way to the tree of life”....the only means they had to live forever, right here on earth, where God put them. (Gen 3:22-24)
Can you see a picture emerging that fights with the notion that we are all going to heaven...? That was never God’s intention. He designed the earth for us....and we are mortal beings designed to live here with all the creatures who share life with us.
It wasn’t the literal earth or heavens that needed replacing......like the flood of Noah’s day, the cleansing that took place back then was on the earth....God washed everything clean, and reset his purpose...starting again with righteous people. But sin was still in them, as it wasn’t time for the arrival of the Messiah whom God’s servants, knew was coming. He would rescue mankind from the sin born in them that is inescapable.
Revelation 21:1-5 tells us what we can expect with a view to the future....
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” ((ESV)
What do you see there...? The “first heaven and earth” (man’s failed rulership over the human race) have “passed away”....along with the “sea” of wicked humanity....never to be seen again.
There is a holy city “new Jerusalem” that comes down from heaven, so this is not earthly Jerusalem, but what the earthly type represented...the seat of God’s rulership, in the capable hands of his appointed king.
She is prepared as a bride, the bride of Christ, which will facilitate God’s presence among his people here on earth. What will be the result of this rulership? God will “make all things new”...and “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
This is what Jesus taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer....for his Kingdom to come, and for his will to “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
We have a lot to look forward to.....but sadly the majority will fall for the devil’s lies. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)
Hello, hope you are well.
Simply put, we (JW's) don't take this literally. At Isaiah 57:20, God likened the sea to the wicked. So Revelation 21:1 means wicked people will be "no more."
And where do you go? By whom are you taught? It seems you are incognito, too.
stevesonthebay
Active Member
Somehow good and evil are inherent or inevitable for the allowance of humans. Maybe there always was the case and had to play out. Christ then restores us back to God. Strangly by becoming like fallen humans though not fallen. But experiencing our weak flesh nature. Then through obedience to Gods will He overcame sin and death.
I think Jesus didn't really disobey His Father. As Jesus said is not healing someone or helping your brother a greater good and honoring God. Jesus was already living out the spirit of God and setting the example. He was living out the fullfillment of the laws the Pharisees were holding against Him.
I think the serpent eating dust is fitting. Satan is doomed to the dust. Not just being dust but eating it. Dust kicked up in his face. Limited to the meaningless dirt. With no life or spirit or light. Just the dark matter of nothing and the smell of death.
Its just satan does not want to stop and think about this. He lives in belief that he can be like God. So he decieves everyone that the dirt is good, its what actually created life. The darkness is light and light is darkness. Most of all the flipping of our carnal flesh and fallen natures as being true life. While seeking treasures in heaven as foolish.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
They are my personal beliefs, proven to me by those who taught me what the Bible actually says, as opposed to what the divided and fragmented churches of Christendom teach. I was raised in Christendom, just as you were raised with the teachings of JW’s. You chose to leave for your own reasons, and I chose to leave for mine. Mine were Scriptural, but it seems that yours seem to be personal which accounts for the vehemence of your vendetta. Your issues eat you up...where is the peace that the truth brings with it?
Where did you go? Did you find a more convenient truth? Did you find better people who took you in and consoled you over the way your family received you thereafter, as you must have treated them like you treat us here, as if we are something the cat dragged in. Your choices are yours to make but when you denigrate the beliefs of those you love publicly, you hold them and yourself to public scritiny, creating a very similar situation to what happened in the first century. We are accountable for our choices, actions and words.
What did Jesus say?
Matt 10:34-40....ESV...
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. “Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me.”
Where are you in that scenario?
I have never been incognito.....but I don’t see you identifying yourself as a specific denomination here....do you have one? Who are your teachers? Who have fed you your doctrines?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
WOW A lot of thoughts given here.....good stuff.
Some other thoughts.
1. Garden of Eden is a mistranslation. Paradise of Delights is more accurate.
2. So Paradise had gates that could be guarded....so that means it was a self-contained area. Did not receive rain, the water came from the ground, like sprinklers.
3. Paradise was not a garden, more like a self-contained and controlled structure. More like a terrarium. Artificial light and temperature controlled....Adam and Eve were naked
4. With Yahweh so comfortable spending time with Adam and Adam and Eve being either immortal or very long lived, I wonder if Paradise was a spiritual/physical plane?
5. The tree of knowledge of good and evil seems metaphorical. And it is fruit not an apple.
6. What was the knowledge of good and evil and why did Yahweh not want Adam and Eve to know the knowledge of good and evil? If they were to fill the earth, that knowledge might be good?
7. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth. Genesis 1:28 I wonder how they were going to fill the earth from one place.
8. Be fruitful and multiply was Yahweh's first commandment and it is repeated at every Covenant except the New Covenant. Christianity developed some very negative views about sex and nudity. I do not think that is how God views it.
9. Be fruitful and multiply....With this commandment given in Paradise I think that nudity and sex and children was intended to happen in Paradise. A lot of Christians think nothing as dirty, nasty and sinful could happen in Paradise. The scripture says different.
10. The talking serpent....Later on Christians assumed that the talking serpent was Satan but the storyline does not name the talking serpent as Satan or a devil. Easy enough to name it.
11. How does Lilith play into this?
12. Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:22-24
Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil....For centuries people have speculated as to who are "us" Because it so vague people can fill in the blanks with anything.
13. EVE.....Genesis 2:18 “...it is not good for Man to be alone...” And He wanted Adam to know the joy of having a mate so He decided it was time to make Him a mate. Translators of the scriptures could not and cannot, figure out the description God gives her. Various translations of the Holy Bible have rendered the words that describe her to mean, helpmate, helper, suitable helper, suitable companion, or wife. The phrase used to describe her only appears once in the entire Bible and appears as two repeated words, zr zr translated either as Ezer Ezer or Azar Azar. The words do not mean help or helper. By themselves the words imply the type of protection that rushes to you to protect you to strengthen you by surrounding you with strength and protection. The duel use of the word implies a much more intimate and powerful meaning. The words imply “a person that strengthens by an enveloping love.”
Eve's name....Adam had named her Chavvah, (pronounced Khav-vaw in Hebrew, meaning life giver and pronounced Yoo-ah in Greek), English translation, Eve? The English word means life or tent village?
14. What exactly got Adam and Eve kicked out of Paradise? Sure they disobeyed Yahweh and ate of the fruit. But allowing the talking serpent in Paradise? Was pairing Eve up against the talking serpent fair? And Eve takes most the blame for the fall of Man. From there on women became property. And could have Yahweh forgiven them? I wonder if the coop de grue was Adam accusing Yahweh of giving him a faulty woman. The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate. Genesis 3:12
15. What were the curses levied against Adam and Eve? Well if you read them, most of them were part of leaving Paradise. Living in the outside world.
16. Apparently Adam and Eve walked out into a world full of people. Cain went to the land of Nod for a wife. And Adam and Eve's children start pairing up with Pagans. And if this happened around six thousand years ago, archeological finds indicate that there were cities and temples and Pagan worship.
Some other thoughts.
1. Garden of Eden is a mistranslation. Paradise of Delights is more accurate.
2. So Paradise had gates that could be guarded....so that means it was a self-contained area. Did not receive rain, the water came from the ground, like sprinklers.
3. Paradise was not a garden, more like a self-contained and controlled structure. More like a terrarium. Artificial light and temperature controlled....Adam and Eve were naked
4. With Yahweh so comfortable spending time with Adam and Adam and Eve being either immortal or very long lived, I wonder if Paradise was a spiritual/physical plane?
5. The tree of knowledge of good and evil seems metaphorical. And it is fruit not an apple.
6. What was the knowledge of good and evil and why did Yahweh not want Adam and Eve to know the knowledge of good and evil? If they were to fill the earth, that knowledge might be good?
7. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth. Genesis 1:28 I wonder how they were going to fill the earth from one place.
8. Be fruitful and multiply was Yahweh's first commandment and it is repeated at every Covenant except the New Covenant. Christianity developed some very negative views about sex and nudity. I do not think that is how God views it.
9. Be fruitful and multiply....With this commandment given in Paradise I think that nudity and sex and children was intended to happen in Paradise. A lot of Christians think nothing as dirty, nasty and sinful could happen in Paradise. The scripture says different.
10. The talking serpent....Later on Christians assumed that the talking serpent was Satan but the storyline does not name the talking serpent as Satan or a devil. Easy enough to name it.
11. How does Lilith play into this?
12. Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:22-24
Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil....For centuries people have speculated as to who are "us" Because it so vague people can fill in the blanks with anything.
13. EVE.....Genesis 2:18 “...it is not good for Man to be alone...” And He wanted Adam to know the joy of having a mate so He decided it was time to make Him a mate. Translators of the scriptures could not and cannot, figure out the description God gives her. Various translations of the Holy Bible have rendered the words that describe her to mean, helpmate, helper, suitable helper, suitable companion, or wife. The phrase used to describe her only appears once in the entire Bible and appears as two repeated words, zr zr translated either as Ezer Ezer or Azar Azar. The words do not mean help or helper. By themselves the words imply the type of protection that rushes to you to protect you to strengthen you by surrounding you with strength and protection. The duel use of the word implies a much more intimate and powerful meaning. The words imply “a person that strengthens by an enveloping love.”
Eve's name....Adam had named her Chavvah, (pronounced Khav-vaw in Hebrew, meaning life giver and pronounced Yoo-ah in Greek), English translation, Eve? The English word means life or tent village?
14. What exactly got Adam and Eve kicked out of Paradise? Sure they disobeyed Yahweh and ate of the fruit. But allowing the talking serpent in Paradise? Was pairing Eve up against the talking serpent fair? And Eve takes most the blame for the fall of Man. From there on women became property. And could have Yahweh forgiven them? I wonder if the coop de grue was Adam accusing Yahweh of giving him a faulty woman. The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate. Genesis 3:12
15. What were the curses levied against Adam and Eve? Well if you read them, most of them were part of leaving Paradise. Living in the outside world.
16. Apparently Adam and Eve walked out into a world full of people. Cain went to the land of Nod for a wife. And Adam and Eve's children start pairing up with Pagans. And if this happened around six thousand years ago, archeological finds indicate that there were cities and temples and Pagan worship.
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I think the objective is to be immune to the serpent's venom and not to eliminate the serpent entirely.
The name Satan means "Enemy" and to become friends with Satan means you will no longer call him by that name, because he is no longer your Enemy.
Luke 10:17-19 ESV The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" (18) And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. (19) Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.
Revelation 20:10 ESV and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Hebrews 1:10-12 ESV And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; (11) they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, (12) like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying. But what is that inescapable sin?
Life comes from God. There is no sin in life.
When a child is born it is born into life.
But there is sin in the world.
When we say someone is born in sin. Could that be that we are born into the world?
Sin is the transgression of the law.
And without law there is no sin.
What is the original sin? Disobedience?
Were we born to be adversaries to God?
If so then we all begin as the devil's children, until we are saved or converted or purchased by God?
For it is appointed unto man once to die. Everybody has their day of reckoning.
But reckoning for not being saved from death by accepting life.
From the beginning we have had a chance to choose.
Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
Choose Life.
Throughout the bible man is given choice.
If we have a choice then how is the sin we are born in inescapable?
Unless one is converted. or bought or saved.
For ye are bought with a price.
When ye are converted.
Thou shalt be saved.
When Stephen was getting stoned to death and about to die, he looked up in the sky and saw the Lord and said:
Lord please don't lay this sin to their charge.
I don't think Stephen meant murdering him. I think it was whatever drove them to kill him.
Something inside them that made them unmerciful, hateful, angry enough to kill.
And that can only come from the devil himself.
So when Stephen prays is he asking the Lord not to blame their hearts but the one who put that in their hearts to begin with?
How is it then that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, if our beginning or original sin does not originate with the devil himself?
And when was that seed planted?
Was it the fruit of the tree? Was it the doubt the serpent caused?
Was it in the flesh that God used to cover the place that he removed Adam's rib?
Gen 2:21
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Why is Eve called the Mother of all Living?
God didn't curse Adam or Eve for eating the fruit, but he did curse the serpent.
So what did Adam die of? He chose death over life. He had a choice.
Just rambling.. thinking..
Hugs
PS95
Well-Known Member
Thanks for finally admitting that you are a JW. You insinuate that I am being hypocritical when I am absolutely not. You know that. Please hear me out because if you are honest with yourself and others here- you will humbly admit that what I am saying is 100% true.
I am not incognito whatsoever. That's silly. I am a Christian and I have only ever used that title. I am not attempting to convert the "Christians" here- OR as JWS call us- Christendom, 'so-called Christians, antichrists...!
Do you admit there is a difference between my reasons for being on here and a JW reason-- Isn't your goal to convert them to the JW org? I know it is- you know it is.. but Will you be honest about your motive?
Have you ever checked off your time card due to spending time on here?
Do you teach the same gospel that Philip taught the Ethiopian or do JWs have a new "good news".. aka a gospel that is different from what Philip taught the Ethiopian? a 1914 invisible return great crowd "gospel"?
Did the JWs stop worshiping the Lord Jesus in 1954? Do you accuse us of being evil idolaters because we still worship Him?
When you registered here did you read the forum's statement of faith? If you agree with it- you tag yourself, Christian. If you do not- you are to tag yourself "other faith". You did not do that. You do not abide by the rules of this forum.
There are JW discussion forums- are you on those? I ask because I can't join them- no Christians allowed- I would have to prove to them that I am a Jw complete with a lot of confirming info, including a secret question. If you desire fellowship of bible discussion why not go there?
Imagine that?- JWS make certain that no non-JW can enter their forum. Why is that? You know as well as I do that even if I managed to get on the forum, that I would be banned for causing a division if I taught anything against what the watchtower popes say.
This forum also has rules- not dictator- like the JW forum- but no JW here obeys the rules of this forum.
I have some brothers and sisters in the Lord here, and just as you would not want me on your forum- surely you can understand why I think you do not belong on this forum.
Do unto others?
Or are trying to lay another foundation where there is already a foundation in Christ?
If you are so proud of your "organization" as the ONLY one God considers as His-- WHY THEN DO YOU HIDE THAT?
My q's are legit and I do hope that you will see that much.
Nice to meet you.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Just my own response to you as you seem to want to tear JW’s down for your own distorted personal reasons.....we all know a vendetta when we see one....you are full of ill feelings and it shows....
“Christendom” is a broad brush stroke because it gathers all the divided “Christian” churches of the world, into one big mob of people who cannot decide on what the truth is.....who on earth would want to join any of them and be as confused as they are? You apparently did....that is what I left. I am no longer confused because I belong to a global brotherhood who all teach and believe one truth.....(1 Cor 1:10) “one Lord, one me faith, one baptism”.
We are continually learning and apparently you don’t agree with us....that’s your choice...no one is forcing it down your throat. What is there left to say to someone like you? I’m sure your family have said it all....
Daniel was the one who prophesied about “the time of the end”.....and only when that time arrived was the whole truth revealed....not to Christendom, but to a small group of men who had one mission....to explore the Scriptures alone, devoid of Christendom’s false doctrines, and to allow the Holy Spirit to direct them.
You can believe them or not....
For example, we discerned the difference between “obeisance” and “worship”....(same word) and since we ascertained that Jesus is not Almighty God, but is who he said he was ...”the Son of God”, (John 10: 36) we discerned that it was “obeisance” that was to be given to Jesus, rather than worship, which can only rightly be given to the Father.
And since Jehovah is the God of Jesus, it is illogical that he can be his own God. (Rev 3: 12)
It is also illogical that Jesus can be a High Priest in the service of his God...if he is God.
He is also said to be “”God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?
Apparently you missed quite a lot growing up....what a shame you didn’t listen....
We are not attempting to convert anyone, because no one can convert anyone without God’s permission (John 6:65) but you knew that....right? I have never accused anyone here of being an antichrist....
“Christendom” is a broad brush stroke because it gathers all the divided “Christian” churches of the world, into one big mob of people who cannot decide on what the truth is.....who on earth would want to join any of them and be as confused as they are? You apparently did....that is what I left. I am no longer confused because I belong to a global brotherhood who all teach and believe one truth.....(1 Cor 1:10) “one Lord, one me faith, one baptism”.
No, the goal is the same as Jesus preaching to his fellow Jews.....he sent his disciples out to search for the lost ones.....not the ones who think close enough is good enough....and they have nothing to learn.
We are continually learning and apparently you don’t agree with us....that’s your choice...no one is forcing it down your throat. What is there left to say to someone like you? I’m sure your family have said it all....
We are always honest about our motive...to tell the truth....take it or leave it....it only resonates with those whom Jehovah “draws” (John 6:44) but you knew that too didn’t you? I can’t drag anyone kicking and screaming against their will.....neither did Jesus.
No we don’t do time cards.....in these last days, our time is consumed with many things, we make time for the preaching work our Lord Jesus commanded....when ever we can. (Matt 28:18-20; Matt 24:14; Acts 5:42; 20:20)
What an odd example to bring up, as Philip was directed to the Ethiopian who was a Jewish convert. He was reading the prophet Isaiah (specifically Isa 53: 7) but did not understand what he was reading. Philip explained about Jesus as the lamb of God.....and the Ethiopian was baptized right away....but this was the beginning of his spiritual journey, like many in the Christian congregations, the light began to spread after Christ’s death into other parts of the world. This man would have taken the good news back to his home country.....but the whole story had not yet unfolded.....there was this “sacred mystery”, that would be revealed as time went on. (Eph 1:8-10, 1 Cor 2:7) It was never revealed to Christendom, who still don’t know what God’s Kingdom is....what is is for, and what it accomplishes.
Daniel was the one who prophesied about “the time of the end”.....and only when that time arrived was the whole truth revealed....not to Christendom, but to a small group of men who had one mission....to explore the Scriptures alone, devoid of Christendom’s false doctrines, and to allow the Holy Spirit to direct them.
You can believe them or not....
There were many things that we dispensed with as the Bible opened up to us things that were not true.
For example, we discerned the difference between “obeisance” and “worship”....(same word) and since we ascertained that Jesus is not Almighty God, but is who he said he was ...”the Son of God”, (John 10: 36) we discerned that it was “obeisance” that was to be given to Jesus, rather than worship, which can only rightly be given to the Father.
And since Jehovah is the God of Jesus, it is illogical that he can be his own God. (Rev 3: 12)
It is also illogical that Jesus can be a High Priest in the service of his God...if he is God.
He is also said to be “”God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?
Apparently you missed quite a lot growing up....what a shame you didn’t listen....
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Only if you're walking in God's ways. If a person walks contrary to God, God will walk contrary to them. See chapter 26 of Leviticus.
Anyone can be an adversary or enemy to God. Anyone that isn't in righteousness. That's why you need/have to repent and be on the path of righteousness.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Romans 5:8-10
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
1 John 2:6
6 He that saith that he abideth in Him, ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.
Hosea 14:9
9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the Lord are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
Jeremiah 9:12-13
12 Who is the wise man that may understand this? And who is he to whom the mouth of the Lord hath spoken, that he may declare it? For why has the land perished and burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through?
13 And the Lord saith, “Because they have forsaken My law which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice, neither walked therein,
Leviticus 26:14-21
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
Job 33:10-11
10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
Lamentations 2:4-17
4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.
5 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
7 The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the Lord, as in the day of a solemn feast.
8 The Lord hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the Lord.
10 The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.
11 Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city.
12 They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.
13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?
14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
15 All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
16 All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.
17 The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
Psalm 81:11-14
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.
Isaiah 63:7-10
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Exodus 23:20-22
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Deuteronomy 10:12-13
12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Jeremiah 7:23
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Romans 11:22-25
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Hello Jane- how kind of you to reply. It's possible and highly likely to that reading the bible caused you some confusion and the JWs came along and had all the answers ready for you.. That's more like it huh?
Your tag says-
"What I post are my personal beliefs after many years of Bible study….I love a good Bible discussion. ;)"
- is terribly misleading. It sounds like you studied the bible for many years alone and learned what you teach on here alone.
We both know that is impossible. NO ONE comes to JW teachings by bible reading and prayer- the EXACT opposite happens. Even your own literature states that much.
Here are just 2 quotes from JW publications-
“They say that it is sufficient to read the bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago.” WT 8/15/1981 p 28-28
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.” WT 9/15/1910
Why not just say you are a JW? After all- you are obviously very pleased to be a member of the only organization that God approves and only ones who can interpret the scriptures.. ..
“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.” WT 10/1/1967
“We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.” WT 2/15/1967
The FDS is a PARABLE..
That's an odd comment- No, nothing personal caused me to leave the JW teachings. Their actual teachings conflicted with the bible in a very big way!
Vehemence of my vendetta? You have said something similar to the poster, Berean- who also questions the ORG because he is a "Bible Student" which was the first group who followed Russell's teachings. It seems that only the people who really know what JWs teach and speak out against those teachings, are seen as your enemies. I call out JW false teachings and if you are troubled by that I do not apologize for it. It is the right thing to do. Especially, when JWs are here posting as if they are just Christians who read the bible.. JWs say awful things about Christians and anyone who leaves the Jw org teachings. Would you like those quotes?!
Remember, you announced your shunning of me on here simply because I dared to call out the JW Romans 6:7 false teaching-- and mentioned to another poster that I was shunned by Jw family. I wanted to keep you on topic- RO 6- not hellfire which has nothing to do with it. You knew I had not been baptized as a Jw. See here- I had not been rude to you. I just wanted to stay on topic. See here to refresh your memory --
Q for JW- KIEW?
Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread-- "Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid...
www.christianityboard.com
I have said this many times---I went solely to scriptures and prayer which is how I was led away from the JW teachings and to Christ.
I trusted no man to teach me after what I had just seen what man is capable of. It was many years before I went to a church.
You make it sound as if I was some horrid sinner who deserved to be shunned by family. It also appears that you have zero empathy for anyone who is shunned by their own family- even when a person simply leaves because they see it conflicts with God's word and confesses Christ as their Savior. Yes, that is how JWs are, so I am not surprised. After all of these years now, I see their shunning as a blessing in disguise, but that's a bit hard to explain to you.
Again- you complain that I treat YOU badly. What I do is expose the watchtower's false teachings. You take that as a personal attack. Do the Christians here say that you treat them like "what the cat dragged in" when you attack their churches teachings? Uneven scales?
.
This is absurd, Jane. Didn't you love your grandmother who was a Christian? Don't you denigrate her Christian teachings? Does that hold you and her to public scrutiny? This is senseless. Kettle back again?
The teachings of the JWs are false- they preach a different gospel and exclude people from Jesus Christ. I expose that. Family or not- Jesus comes before them and He always will.
Well, that's easy. I lost my entire family because I was called to Jesus by my Father and confessed Him. -I would do it again. In order to keep my family I would have had to deny that Jesus' blood washed away all my sins-and I hoped to live with Him forever.
Of course you are. This is a Christian forum with a Statement of Faith that you disagree with it. You should be other faith and you know that much. and your tag is baloney - you also know that, Jane. You rarely state that you are JW until pushed. As you have stated many time- "you have NOTHING in COMMON WITH CHRISTIANITY." Shall I show you your posts? I say things like they are, Jane. No offense personally. I just don't like false teachings and those who teach them will not like me. It is what it is.
I don't see why we can't discuss or debate though. If you are correct why hide from me?
Again- no I am not of a denomination and I have only ever called myself a Christian. Acts 26:28, 1 Peter 4:16, Acts 11:26
You can not say the same.
I attend a local Christian church where the bible is read intact, we support missions and engage the community in various ways. -
I also attend a weekly study/ fellowship in a private home with 17 others from various denominations- the gospel is the gospel no matter the particulars where we have liberty. Mature believers understand that.
This site is not reflective of the Christians in my world at all.
PS95
Well-Known Member
There is no forum sponsored by the Christian churches? SO WHAT?
It sure seems like a very strict JW only site.. what's o awful about that for you- are those Jws bad people?
Well, anyone can call themselves a JW; and Ive found them to be mostly overrun with ex-JW's.
Again, hope your day is a good one.
PS95
Well-Known Member
You seem to like the word vendetta. It's simple- I know for certain that many JW teachings are flat out false false and I expose them. If you want to call that a vendetta that's your choice.
Should we say you have a vendetta against Christian churches? kettle- black?
WHY are you here then, Jane?!! This is ridiculous. You act as if I don't know what you are told to do.. lol
How can you lie to yourself like this and to others? I did not say that you called anyone here and antichrist-- BUT it is what YOU BELIEVE and are taught by the ORG! Stop the game playing, Jane. It's deceitful. If you don't want to be called to the mat- then be honest.
Christians don't walk in brain dead lock step conformity and they should not because that is not what UNITY is.
There is much to be desired for sure- and Jesus did pray for unity and therefore it will happen, but it will be in His time not yours.
In the meantime there is UNITY on the basics of all true believers. You don't even teach the basics right.
There are many lose cannons on this site. Oh well. Not all are walking in truth. Many are not even Christians although they tag themselves that way.
Just as the churches had issues in Paul's day- we see the same today. Some are of "Paul" .. some think they can sin and it's ok - etc. Nothing new under the sun. As they mature- many will change. Some won't. All we can do is remind them.
One Lord- one faith - one baptism and also ONE HOPE.<- you forgot that.
THAT is the same as being here to convert them. Comparing yourself and jws as Jesus' disciples is the last thing you should be doing. You do not teach HIS GOSPEL! The disciples never taught the JW gospel not even close!
You think you are locusts of Rev 9- coming to HARM & TORMENT people who do not have the Holy Spirit seal.............
Why don't you tell them that?!
My family is as lost as you are and I pray for them. Why you keep feeling the need to bring them up is your problem, not mine.
No you are certainly not honest about your motive on here! see above and the last post to you. For crying out loud you are too much-Imagine Christians infiltrating a Jw site by pretending they are Jws to get in-- to seek the confused Jws.. What would they do to that person?
I am aware that the time cards are now much simpler with just one box to check of per mo - but it is still a time card and you fill your time here.. My 89 year od mom did not have that time card change luxury before she died- she was out there pounding the pavement so she didn't "lose her standing"..
Your new & different gospel is still spread on foot door to door by you still, Jane? ...........
I don't know why you don't understand that Philip taught the Ethiopian the only GOSPEL. The ONE that JWs do not teach and the one gospel that Paul said not to to change even if and angel tells you to! There is no new gospel, Jane! You are the ones who do not understand the kingdom of God! Paul said- Let them be accursed!! 2X You defy that! That gospel is to be preaches until Jesus returns and He did not return in 1914. NOT one thing Russell predicted came true. Not one thing.
I absolutely do not believe them and no one should, Jane. The GB lies to their own members about your own history!. Sad but true. It is in the literature for all to see- but you guys have so much literature you never even notice their lies. Are you even interested?
I am fully aware of the many changes- save it, Jane. Jws are constantly tossed like the sea by those men and never come to the truth -- Jws still had half a chance when they worshipped the Son of God. Bowing down to someone is a form of worship. Angels refuse it. Jesus does not. Every knee will bow to Jesus.
psalm- 95:6-7
6 O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before YHWH our Maker.
7For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, the sheep under His care.
Today, if you hear His voice,
When you say things like this it only shows that You do not understand that Modalists and Onness teach that the Son is the Father- Christians do not. You also seem to utterly ignore that Jesus once He came to earth- that He
Emptied Himself, humbled Himself and acted as a servant and became obedient.
The trinity is not something I will allow you to sidetrack me to. I don't believe it is necessary to accept the trinity in order to be a believer- there is so much more that Jws have very wrong.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Oh please. That is not an xjw site. clearly......................
You must prove you are a Jw to even get on there. Name, address, phone, congregation, secret question etc etc
Clearly they have permission.
you can read some posts-- they are JWs without a doubt..
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