TODAY IS NOT GOD'S GATHERING OF ISRAEL

[Davidpt]

Most Premils argue otherwise because it makes no sense to think that the NJ, as described in Revelation 21-22, is already present during the millennium.

LOL. You mean the same Premils that argue Isaiah 65:17-25 is meaning during the millennium? Not only do those verses mention a new Jerusalem, they also mention a NHNE. And according to Revelation 21-22, one can't have a new Jerusalem without also having a NHNE. Therefore, these Premils are being contradictory by insisting the NJ doesn't come down until after the GWTJ, but that Isaiah 65:17-25 is meaning before the GWTJ.

So why act as if they are being reasonable in regards to the NJ coming down after the GWTJ when they already, per Isaiah 65:17-25, have the millennium involving both a NJ and NHNE?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

For example, compare verse 19 with the following.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


I give up if Isaiah 65:19 does not equal this in Revelation 21:4--And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no crying.

Isaiah 65:19 is a flat out lie if it is not until the time of Revelation 21:4 that there are no more tears, no more crying. Isaiah 65:19 does not say that. It plainly says, thus clearly means, that at that time, meaning when Isaiah 65:19 is meaning--the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Are these Premils going to treat 'no more' in Isaiah 65:19 in the same manner Amils treat 'no more' in Revelation 20:3, for example? IOW, what part of 'no more' are some not comprehending? Therefore, when Isaiah 65:19 already says--the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying--it is meaning never again for forever. But how can it be, if according to most Premils, it is not until the time of Revelation 21:4 when there will never be anymore crying for forever? Therefore, obviously Isaiah 65:19 is also meaning and involving Revelation 21:4. And not something absurd instead--first Isaiah 65:19 is fulfilled--later on Revelation 21:4 is fulfilled. That makes the 'no more' recorded in Isaiah 65:19 a lie per that scenario.

But we have to apply things in context, thus use some common sense as well. The no more crying is meaning in the NJ. Nowhere, for example, does it say that anyone cast into the LOF, there is no more crying among them as well. And that's pretty much how I reason a lot of this and why there can still be a NHNE during the millennium in spite of Revelation 21:4. It says the crying is no longer found in Jerusalem. And clearly the NJ is being likened to the garden of Eden.

And nobody that I'm aware of thinks the garden of Eden was meaning the entire planet. Therefore, until the time that 1 Corinthians 15:28 arrives, there can still be death and crying outside of the NJ in the meantime. This assuming that the NJ is already present during a future millennium.

I also think Isaiah 60, for example, supports some of what I'm proposing. But I will have to go into reasons why per a future post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. You mean the same Premils that argue Isaiah 65:17-25 is meaning during the millennium?

No, I was saying that most Premils argue against that because they know enough to not cause Isaiah 65:17-25 to contradict Revelation 21:1-4.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I give up if Isaiah 65:19 does not equal this in Revelation 21:4--And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no crying.

Isaiah 65:19 is a flat out lie if it is not until the time of Revelation 21:4 that there are no more tears, no more crying. Isaiah 65:19 does not say that. It plainly says, thus clearly means, that at that time, meaning when Isaiah 65:19 is meaning--the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

They obviously are equal. Revelation 21:4 says there will be no more death at that point. Yet, you think there will be more death at that point. Your view blatantly contradicts Revelation 21:4. What do you think, that people will die during a supposed future thousand years and no one will mourn their deaths?

Are these Premils going to treat 'no more' in Isaiah 65:19 in the same manner Amils treat 'no more' in Revelation 20:3, for example? IOW, what part of 'no more' are some not comprehending?

How many times does this need to be explained to you before you get it? Amils treat "no more" in that verse the same as Premils do. And this has been explained to you several times. Amils and Premils don't differ on what "no more" means in Revelation 20:3. Amils agree that Satan can deceive the nations no more during the thousand years. What Amils and Premils differ on is what deceiving the nations means. We agree that, whatever it means, Satan can do it no more during the thousand years and then can do it again when he is loosed after the thousand years.

Therefore, when Isaiah 65:19 already says--the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying--it is meaning never again for forever. But how can it be, if according to most Premils, it is not until the time of Revelation 21:4 when there will never be anymore crying for forever? Therefore, obviously Isaiah 65:19 is also meaning and involving Revelation 21:4. And not something absurd instead--first Isaiah 65:19 is fulfilled--later on Revelation 21:4 is fulfilled. That makes the 'no more' recorded in Isaiah 65:19 a lie per that scenario.

But we have to apply things in context, thus use some common sense as well. The no more crying is meaning in the NJ. Nowhere, for example, does it say that anyone cast into the LOF, there is no more crying among them as well. And that's pretty much how I reason a lot of this and why there can still be a NHNE during the millennium in spite of Revelation 21:4. It says the crying is no longer found in Jerusalem. And clearly the NJ is being likened to the garden of Eden.

Revelation 21:4 indicates that there will be no more crying anywhere at that point. The New Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). It's not a literal city or a literal location in the new heavens and new earth. That's symbolic for the church, which is the bride of Christ.

And nobody that I'm aware of thinks the garden of Eden was meaning the entire planet. Therefore, until the time that 1 Corinthians 15:28 arrives, there can still be death and crying outside of the NJ in the meantime.

That is absolute nonsense and blatantly contradicts Revelation 21:4. According to Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:28 will arrive at the time that "the end" arrives, which Paul said will arrive just after the second coming of Christ.

This assuming that the NJ is already present during a future millennium.

That's a bad assumption that blatantly contradicts Revelation 21:1-4. The New Jerusalem comes down AFTER the first (current) heavens and earth pass away. You can't have death and crying still happening after the current heavens and earth pass away. John clearly said there will be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain at that point.

I also think Isaiah 60, for example, supports some of what I'm proposing. But I will have to go into reasons why per a future post.

It definitely doesn't support what you're proposing. Nothing does.

 

[Davidpt]

What do you think, that people will die during a supposed future thousand years and no one will mourn their deaths?

Why should I think anyone dies during a future millennium when it is not until after the millennium anyone ever dies again? Adam was mortal and almost lived an entire thousand years. Therefore, it is not absurd that mortals could live an entire thousand years and then some. But even if I'm wrong, and some do die during the millennium, thus mourning taking place, so what? The mourning would be taking place outside of the NJ, not within it.

It is within the NJ there is no more crying. Outside of the NJ is not inside the NJ, the same way outside of the garden of Eden was not inside the garden. Meaning the entire planet was not meaning the garden of Eden. Because if it was, how did the tree of life get blocked unless it's located somewhere specific?

In my mind no one dies during the millennium. The argument then might be, well what about Isaiah 65:20 then? My answer to that, but who can even fully understand that verse to begin with? How can anyone argue via verse 20 unless it's crystal clear to the rest of us that they are understanding that verse properly first? I don't know about you, but I do not know of anyone's interpretation of that verse where it is crystal clear to me that that person is fully understanding that verse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why should I think anyone dies during a future millennium when it is not until after the millennium anyone ever dies again?

A vast majority of Premils believe that death will occur during the supposed future millennium, so you can't blame me for assuming that is what you believed as well. I thought you believed that Isaiah 65:17-25 refers to the time of the millennium and that you believed verse 20 indicates that death occurs during that time? No? If so, how do you interpret Isaiah 65:20?

Adam was mortal and almost lived an entire thousand years. Therefore, it is not absurd that mortals could live an entire thousand years and then some.

But, all of them? I don't think that is reasonable. No one, even back then, lived to be a thousand years old, so why would everyone in the future live that long? That's quite a stretch. To the point where I can't even take that seriously.

But even if I'm wrong, and some do die during the millennium, thus mourning taking place, so what? The mourning would be taking place outside of the NJ, not within it.

Your understanding of the New Jerusalem is quite flawed. It's not a literal city in a literal location as you apparently believe. It is described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). Do you really think a literal city could be considered to be the bride of Christ? Why do you try to take the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible as literally as you possibly can? That is just a terrible approach to interpreting books like Revelation.

You said you believe that Isaiah 65:19 and Revelation 21:4 are about the same thing and I agree with that. So, let's look at Revelation 21:4 in context then.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Verse 4 is not just talking about the New Jerusalem. It is talking about the former things of "the first heaven and the first earth" passing away. That includes things like death, sorrow, crying and pain. It's clearly talking about there literally being no more death, sorrow, crying and pain anywhere ever again once the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. The text says "the former things are passed away" at that point, but you say they are not. I believe you are blatantly contradicting the text.

So, if Isaiah 65:19 and Revelation 21:4 are speaking of the same thing, as you've said and as I agree that they are, then Isaiah 65:19 is talking about there being no more crying anywhere ever again.The New Jerusalem represents the church and we will be the only ones alive on the new earth, so when it talks about there no more being heard the sound of weeping in the new Jerusalem, that means there will be no more weeping anywhere on the new earth because unbelievers will be in the lake of fire at that point and not living on the new earth.

It is within the NJ there is no more crying. Outside of the NJ is not inside the NJ, the same way outside of the garden of Eden was not inside the garden. Meaning the entire planet was not meaning the garden of Eden. Because if it was, how did the tree of life get blocked unless it's located somewhere specific?

Outside of the NJ is the lake of fire at that point. The New Jerusalem will encompass the entire new earth because it represents the church ("the bride, the Lamb's wife"). Those who are in the New Jerusalem are contrasted with those who are in the lake of fire at that point.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

How do you conclude that anyone can be on the new earth, but outside the New Jerusalem in light of verses like these which place unbelievers in the lake of fire while believers only dwell in the new earth? Do you think that Peter said that the new heavens and new earth will be "where righteousness will dwell" (2 Peter 3:13) for nothing? Why do you think that unrighteousness will also dwell there, even if only for a little season? No, only righteousness will dwell there. Otherwise, what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 would be meaningless.

In my mind no one dies during the millennium.

And what scripture is that based on?

The argument then might be, well what about Isaiah 65:20 then? My answer to that, but who can even fully understand that verse to begin with?

Anyone who understand that the Bible never contradicts itself can easily understand that verse by reading Revelation 21:4. Both verses clearly relate to the new heavens and new earth, so we have two choices. We can either believe that Isaiah 65:20 contradicts Revelation 21:4 (a bad option) or we can allow the more straightforward verse (Revelation 21:4) to help us realize that Isaiah 65:20 must be a figurative description of there being no more death with Isaiah describing that in a way that people back then who had no concept of eternity could understand.

How can anyone argue via verse 20 unless it's crystal clear to the rest of us that they are understanding that verse properly first? I don't know about you, but I do not know of anyone's interpretation of that verse where it is crystal clear to me that that person is fully understanding that verse.

The verse is certainly not clear and straightforward. Anyone denying that is a liar. It's crystal clear to me that we can't allow that verse to contradict Revelation 21:4 which says "there will be no more death" when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. How many ways can "no more death" be interpreted? Only one as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty straightforward.

 

[Davy]

Your understanding of the New Jerusalem is quite flawed. It's not a literal city in a literal location as you apparently believe. It is described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). Do you really think a literal city could be considered to be the bride of Christ? Why do you try to take the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible as literally as you possibly can? That is just a terrible approach to interpreting books like Revelation.

I'm not agreeing with either of you, and you both need to look further in The Scriptures.

It should be easy to know that when Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happens, that will be the end of flesh death, period. What Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15 about the 'change' on the "last trump" to the "spiritual body" makes this so. And in the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 verses, in the Greek, Paul reveals that change will also happen for the wicked too. Even in Acts 24:14 Paul said his hope was that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Thus flesh death is over and done with when Jesus returns.

That is why the only type death remaining after Jesus returns is the "second death", which is the casting of one's spirit with soul in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20, the end of the Millennium.

As for the new Jerusalem of Rev.21 and Isaiah 65, that will... be a literal established holy city upon this earth, and not some spiritual myth. The idea of the new Jerusalem representing Christ's bride is from the Old Testament prophets involving God having married Jerusalem in the spiritual sense long ago (see Ezekiel 16). One who is studied in the Old Testament prophets should have known that. So just because Christ gave us a lot of symbology in His Book of Revelation, that does not mean those symbols point to hot air balloons.

So if we look at what the actual Bible Scripture reveals about new Jerusalem, it is your... understanding which is flawed, and is not staying with Bible Scripture.

You said you believe that Isaiah 65:19 and Revelation 21:4 are about the same thing and I agree with that. So, let's look at Revelation 21:4 in context then.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Verse 4 is not just talking about the New Jerusalem. It is talking about the former things of "the first heaven and the first earth" passing away. That includes things like death, sorrow, crying and pain. It's clearly talking about there literally being no more death, sorrow, crying and pain anywhere ever again once the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. The text says "the former things are passed away" at that point, but you say they are not. I believe you are blatantly contradicting the text.

Even though I disagreed with your previous assumptions about new Jerusalem being Christ's bride means the new Jerusalem is spiritual only, I agree with the above, because that is what God's Word teaches about the concept of hell, death, the wicked, with it all going into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's Millennium reign of Rev.20 at the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

At those Revelation 21:14-15 verses is where you will have to back up your timeline a bit. Those events actually occur during Christ's future "thousand years" reign. It shows the wicked still existing outside the gates into the city, so that means the "second death" has not happened yet.

When Jesus returns, there will be some... earth changes that will happen right then, which point to the new heavens and a new earth. The return of God's River upon this earth is to happen while the wicked still exist, that per Ezekiel 44 thru 47. And remember, "the dead" of Rev.20:5 are not in flesh death, they are in spiritual death of their soul, being without Christ Jesus, and thus they are subject to the "second death" still. Likewise in Ezekiel 44:25, those "dead" represent the same ones of Rev.20:5.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not agreeing with either of you, and you both need to look further in The Scriptures.

That means nothing coming from you.

It should be easy to know that when Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happens, that will be the end of flesh death, period.

Right. That's what I believe. Are you talking to your strawman instead of me?

What Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15 about the 'change' on the "last trump" to the "spiritual body" makes this so. And in the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 verses, in the Greek, Paul reveals that change will also happen for the wicked too.

Ooops. Now you've gone off the rails again. The context of 1 Corinthians 15 is only in relation to believers. In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Paul is very clear that the context of what he's talking about in the chapter relates to those who belong to Christ. That is obvious to anyone with discernment, which is why you can't discern that.

Even in Acts 24:14 Paul said his hope was that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Of course the unjust will be resurrected at generally the same time, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29 and as Daniel 12:1-2 indicates as well. But, that does not mean they will be changed to have the same type of immortal body that believers will. Paul indicated that our changed, immortal spiritual bodies will be glorious, powerful and incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). Why would unbelievers be allowed to have glorious, powerful, incorruptible and immortal spiritual bodies?

Thus flesh death is over and done with when Jesus returns.

You get that part right, at least.

That is why the only type death remaining after Jesus returns is the "second death", which is the casting of one's spirit with soul in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20, the end of the Millennium.

Right.

As for the new Jerusalem of Rev.21 and Isaiah 65, that will... be a literal established holy city upon this earth, and not some spiritual myth.

Explain to me how a literal city on earth can be called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9). We will inherit the entire new heavens and new earth and dwell there (2 Peter 3:13). Not just some literal city on earth.

The idea of the new Jerusalem representing Christ's bride is from the Old Testament prophets involving God having married Jerusalem in the spiritual sense long ago (see Ezekiel 16).

No, it's from Revelation 21. Have you ever read it?

Revelation 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

One who is studied in the Old Testament prophets should have known that. So just because Christ gave us a lot of symbology in His Book of Revelation, that does not mean those symbols point to hot air balloons.

LOL! You are taking the symbolism of Revelation literally. Do you even understand what symbolism is? A symbolic city is not a literal city. Do you think Mystery Babylon refers to a literal city, also? It does not. It's not any more a literal city than it is a literal harlot woman. The New Jerusalem represents the church and Babylon represents everything opposed to the church.

So if we look at what the actual Bible Scripture reveals about new Jerusalem, it is your... understanding which is flawed, and is not staying with Bible Scripture.

Again, explain to me how a literal city can be the bride of Christ when anyone with any discernment knows that the church is the bride of Christ. He doesn't have more than one bride.

At those Revelation 21:14-15 verses is where you will have to back up your timeline a bit. Those events actually occur during Christ's future "thousand years" reign. It shows the wicked still existing outside the gates into the city, so that means the "second death" has not happened yet.

No, it does not. It does not indicate that they are living on the earth outside the gates of a literal city. Again, you miss the meaning of the symbolism. They are outside the New Jerusalem because they are not in the church. Instead, they will be in the lake of fire at that point.

 

[Davy]

Ooops. Now you've gone off the rails again. The context of 1 Corinthians 15 is only in relation to believers.

(All my quotes in "bold italics" are taken directly from the KJV Bible).

No, it is not only about believers. You failed to go into the Greek of the 1 Cor.15:53-54 verses as I have been showing. Paul used FOUR DIFFERENT Greek words to point to TWO different CHANGES that must happen in order to have Eternal Life through Faith on Jesus Christ. That's why the translators put a big AND in between those FOUR Greek words. I have revealed this on this Forum several times, so I don't think you missed it... as this is not my opinion...

1 Cor 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

"corruptible" = Greek phthartos, decayed, perishable
"incorruption" = Greek aphthrsia, unending existence
"this mortal" = Greek thnetos, liable to die
"immortality" = Greek athanasia, deathlessness
(above definitions are from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)


Notice the "and" conjunction above pointing to TWO separate CHANGES, not one.

Those in Christ go through BOTH CHANGES. The wicked only will experience the FIRST CHANGE. That is what the "resurrection of damnation" of John 5 is about...

Lord Jesus said... and I quote:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


If there will be a resurrection for the wicked, that MEANS the same resurrection idea for those in Christ, the difference being the wicked will still be WITHOUT CHRIST JESUS, and STILL 'liable to die' (Greek thnetos) at the "second death" in the "lake of fire" after Christ's "thousand years" literal reign.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

Where did Paul quote that "Death is swallowed up in victory" idea from? From Isaiah 25 which gives more hint of this future event. EVERYONE... all souls... are going to be changed to the "spiritual body" type, because we each already have that spirit body living INSIDE our flesh body, as Paul revealed in 2 Corinthians 5. When Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord", the dead will be resurrected to the spiritual body, and those still alive in the flesh on earth will have their flesh cast off, revealing their spiritual body in that other dimension.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(All my quotes in "bold italics" are taken directly from the KJV Bible).

No, it is not only about believers.

Read all of 1 Corinthians 15 for context. It's only about believers from beginning to end. You obviously have no idea of how to understand context in scripture.

Paul first refers to the resurrection of the dead in Christ here...

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Do you claim that this passage is talking about the resurrection of all people, including believers? It clearly is not because it refers to Christ's resurrection itself and then the resurrection of "they that are Christ's at his coming". That's it. So, that establishes the context of who Paul is talking about in the rest of 1 Corinthians 15 as well.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

In the passage above, Paul talks about the natural body like we have now, which is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness being raised as spiritual bodies in incorruption, glory and power when the resurrection of the dead occurs. Do you really think that unbelievers will be resurrected with incorruptible, glorious and powerful spiritual bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

In the passage above, Paul is still only referring to believers and indicates that we will be changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies. But, he reveals that it won't just be the dead in Christ who are changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies, but those believers who are alive when the last trumpet sounds will be changed as well. He's referring to the change from having corruptible, dishonorable, weak, mortal natural bodies to having incorruptible, glorious, powerful, immortal spiritual bodies. I don't know how you can think that unbelievers will have bodies that are glorious and powerful. They might have bodies that are immortal in a sense, but not like our bodies that will be glorious and powerful. Only believers will be rewarded with incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies.

You failed to go into the Greek of the 1 Cor.15:53-54 verses as I have been showing. Paul used FOUR DIFFERENT Greek words to point to TWO different CHANGES that must happen in order to have Eternal Life through Faith on Jesus Christ. That's why the translators put a big AND in between those FOUR Greek words. I have revealed this on this Forum several times, so I don't think you missed it... as this is not my opinion...

1 Cor 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

"corruptible" = Greek phthartos, decayed, perishable
"incorruption" = Greek aphthrsia, unending existence
"this mortal" = Greek thnetos, liable to die
"immortality" = Greek athanasia, deathlessness
(above definitions are from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)


Notice the "and" conjunction above pointing to TWO separate CHANGES, not one.

The words corruptible and mortal mean about the same thing, so you don't have much of a point here. It's one change, as I described above. The change Paul references is from having corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal natural bodies to having incorruptible, glorious, powerful, and immortal spiritual bodies.

Those in Christ go through BOTH CHANGES. The wicked only will experience the FIRST CHANGE. That is what the "resurrection of damnation" of John 5 is about...

Lord Jesus said... and I quote:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


If there will be a resurrection for the wicked, that MEANS the same resurrection idea for those in Christ, the difference being the wicked will still be WITHOUT CHRIST JESUS, and STILL 'liable to die' (Greek thnetos) at the "second death" in the "lake of fire" after Christ's "thousand years" literal reign.

What are you talking about? What do you mean they will be "liable to die" at the second death in the lake of fire? Do you not think they will experience eternal torment? Do you think they can still have a chance at eternal life after being resurrected to damnation? Explain what you mean here.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

Where did Paul quote that "Death is swallowed up in victory" idea from? From Isaiah 25 which gives more hint of this future event.

Yes, from Isaiah 25:8 which is also quoted in Revelation 21:4. When death is swallowed up in victory when Jesus returns at the last trumpet that is when the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in. That supports amillennialism rather than your false premillennialism belief.

EVERYONE... all souls... are going to be changed to the "spiritual body" type, because we each already have that spirit body living INSIDE our flesh body, as Paul revealed in 2 Corinthians 5. When Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord", the dead will be resurrected to the spiritual body, and those still alive in the flesh on earth will have their flesh cast off, revealing their spiritual body in that other dimension.

The wicked may have an immortal body of some kind because of scripture teaching that they will experience eternal torment, but it will not be like the glorious and powerful immortal body that Paul says believers will have.

 

[Davy]

Read all of 1 Corinthians 15 for context. It's only about believers from beginning to end. You obviously have no idea of how to understand context in scripture.
....

Nope, You are Wrong. Don't try to give me that context stuff, that doesn't work as I remained strictly... in the context of those 1 Cor.15 Scriptures that I covered. I don't have to cover who Paul was speaking to in order to follow where all Paul was teaching from, including LIKE THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS. I get tired of hearing stupid excuses misapplying the word context because someone is too LAZY to do their homework in all of God's written Word.

Paul said we ALL... shall be CHANGED (1 Cor.15:51).

1 Cor 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

Do the wicked dead have a RESURRECTION? Per Lord Jesus, YES, the "resurrection of damnation", which means they are NOT DESTROYED YET. So that idea of 'asleep' applies to them too? YES! Likewise in 1 Cor.15:49 when Paul said "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly," have the wicked borne the image of the earthy also? YES! They have borne the image of flesh like us also, and shall also bear the image of the heavenly, which is what the idea of RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD is about!

Then do the wicked that are still alive like the saints when Jesus comes, will they be CHANGED ALSO? YES! It is because on the "day of the Lord", when Jesus returns, it will END this fleshy existence on earth. No one will be in a FLESH BODY after that point. The Old Testament references to having children are 'expressions'. Like Jesus said, in the resurrection they neither marry nor take in marriage. Yet the Ezekiel 44 Millennial sanctuary priests that serve Jesus in that future time, the Zadok (The Just), it says they will marry virgins, or a widow who was married to a priest. That was written because it was those prophecies, which have never... been fulfilled, were given in old covenant times.

And just the FACT that Jesus showed there will be a RESURRECTION of the wicked dead also, that shows the wicked go through that FIRST CHANGE of 1 Cor.15:53, the CHANGE from a body of "corruption" (flesh body) to the body of "incorruption" ("spiritual body").


THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF PAUL:

The "spiritual body" which Apostle Paul showed we shall be CHANGED to, is ALREADY DWELLING INSIDE OUR FLESH SHELL RIGHT NOW, while we are alive here on earth. This Paul covered in 2 Corinthians 5 when he said that if ever our earthly tabernacle were 'dissolved', we still have another body, not made with hands (meaning non-material), eternal from God. Paul said that in the PRESENT TENSE about that other body, which is our spirit body.

Our "spiritual body" dwelling with our soul inside our flesh body shell is that "image of the heavenly" that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15:49. It is our outward image likeness body in the Heavenly dimension. To have eternal Life in Christ, our flesh tabernacle or shell must be cast off to reveal our "spiritual body" image in that other dimension. That also is HOW the wicked will be recognized in that time after Jesus' future return, even recognizing Satan's literal appearance in that time, per Isaiah 14:16.

The difference is like today with those who reject Christ Jesus. Even though the wicked walk upon this earth today and alive flesh bodies, inside their souls are spiritually dead without Christ Jesus. And the means they will still be in a LIABLE TO DIE state (Greek thnetos) at the future casting into the "lake of fire" of Revelation 20. Man can kill our flesh body, but ONLY GOD can destroy our spirit body with soul into the "lake of fire."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope, You are Wrong. Don't try to give me that context stuff,

This comment says it all about you. Context means nothing to you. Thanks for admitting that. You didn't even attempt to specifically address anything I said. Why are you so afraid to do so? Why are you afraid to specifically address any challenges to your view? It has to be that you are committed to believing whatever you want to believe while being completely unteachable.

 

[Davy]

This comment says it all about you. Context means nothing to you. Thanks for admitting that. You didn't even attempt to specifically address anything I said. Why are you so afraid to do so? Why are you afraid to specifically address any challenges to your view? It has to be that you are committed to believing whatever you want to believe while being completely unteachable.

Would you like some cheese with that WHINE???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Would you like some cheese with that WHINE???

What makes you so afraid to specifically address the points people make in response to your claims, little Davy? Is that an admission that you just believe what you want to believe and are not prepared to defend your beliefs?

 

[Davy]

What makes you so afraid to specifically address the points people make in response to your claims, little Davy? Is that an admission that you just believe what you want to believe and are not prepared to defend your beliefs?

All those things you wrongly accuse me of are exactly... what you are doing.

God's Word is not... some 'mystery religion' like you try to make it.

You obviously don't like me POSTING BIBLE SCRIPTURE to witness what I teach from God's Word, because you never take time to address the actual Bible Scriptures I post, but just push false accusations like your above silly post. If you don't like God's Word as written, then tough, is all I can say.

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ, here is one of the Bible Scripture proofs of what I have said about Paul's "spiritual body" already existing within our flesh body. Many Jewish converts don't like this Scripture, because they instead believe in a FLESHY resurrection of the dead, which is NOT written in God's Word.


Brethren in Christ Jesus, just read what Apostle Paul said below in simplicity. Paul had just covered the body type of the resurrection in the previous 1 Corinthians 15 coverage. So no one has an excuse to not understand that is the type body he is talking about here in 2 Corinthians...

2 Cor 5:1-10
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul uses the symbol of an "earthly house" for our flesh body. A "tabernacle" means a temporary residence (NT:4636).

He is simply saying that if... our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, and that word does mean literally destroyed, we still have another body. And that another body is not one of flesh, because that phrase "... a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", is pointing directly to a Heavenly type body.

Paul says, "we have"... that other body not made with hands from God already. That "we have" is a Greek primary verb showing possession. It is in the present tense. That body is about our "spirit" part per Hebrews 4:12. Paul called it a "spiritual body" back in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter.


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

For in what... do we groan? And what part of us groans to be manifest with our house from heaven? Did Paul just change what he said about that "building of God, an house not made with hands"? No, he did not. He is giving us another view of 'where' that other body dwells, and its eventual release. Release from what?

Whatever it is inside our flesh that groans, we know it is not about flesh. It is about our flesh being cast off to reveal that other house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. It too is about a 'body', just not a flesh type body. It instead is a body type of the heavenly. Remember the angels in God's Word? They have that heavenly type body. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:49 also called it the "image of the heavenly". You already have that spirit body dwelling inside your flesh body, and it seeks to be loosed from your flesh body in the glorious manifesting of the sons of God (Romans 8). That won't happen until Jesus returns, so until then, our house not made with hands groans in bondage by our flesh shell given us for this present world.

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Paul is speaking spiritually with that above idea.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul even refers to the death swallowed up in victory passage in Isaiah 25 which hints about ALL... peoples being changed with their flesh cast off to reveal their heavenly body. It uses the idea of this fleshy world being like a veil covering. And when Jesus returns, that veil being removed for ALL peoples, not just Christ's Church.

Isa 25:6-8
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV

It really sickens me to hear conceited brethren brag about their future resurrection while thinking God is going to leave the wicked in flesh bodies to burn in hell. Those brethren show hatred... in their souls that has the need to be corrected! And it will be corrected when Jesus returns, and they are made to bow before His elect priests to learn how they have heeded the world and men's doctrines, instead of God's Word.

Death is going to be swallowed up in victory FOR ALL PEOPLES AND NATIONS, not just the Church. In that future time after Jesus returns, the wicked will STILL be subject to the "second death" condition though, unless they repent and covert to Lord Jesus Christ. However, their spiritual body will be manifest also in that future time. Paul also called that "spiritual body" the body of "incorruption". And it is made 'immortal' ONLY by Faith on Jesus Christ.


5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Home in what... body? In our flesh body. For this present world time, which is temporary, being born in the flesh means our temporary home for our spirit with soul is in our flesh body. Our flesh is of this earthly material dimension, but our spirit body with soul is of the Heavenly dimension. So don't make the mistake of trying to mix the two together, because they are not attached to our flesh body that way. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed there is an invisible "silver cord" that keeps our spirit with soul attached to our flesh body, and at death of our flesh body that "silver cord" is severed, and thus our spirit with soul is loosed back to The Father. But our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from.

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Brethren in Christ, here is one of the Bible Scripture proofs of what I have said about Paul's "spiritual body" already existing within our flesh body. Many Jewish converts don't like this Scripture, because they instead believe in a FLESHY resurrection of the dead, which is NOT written in God's Word.


Brethren in Christ Jesus, just read what Apostle Paul said below in simplicity. Paul had just covered the body type of the resurrection in the previous 1 Corinthians 15 coverage. So no one has an excuse to not understand that is the type body he is talking about here in 2 Corinthians...

2 Cor 5:1-10
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul uses the symbol of an "earthly house" for our flesh body. A "tabernacle" means a temporary residence (NT:4636).

He is simply saying that if... our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, and that word does mean literally destroyed, we still have another body. And that another body is not one of flesh, because that phrase "... a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", is pointing directly to a Heavenly type body.

Paul says, "we have"... that other body not made with hands from God already. That "we have" is a Greek primary verb showing possession. It is in the present tense. That body is about our "spirit" part per Hebrews 4:12. Paul called it a "spiritual body" back in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter.


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

For in what... do we groan? And what part of us groans to be manifest with our house from heaven? Did Paul just change what he said about that "building of God, an house not made with hands"? No, he did not. He is giving us another view of 'where' that other body dwells, and its eventual release. Release from what?

Whatever it is inside our flesh that groans, we know it is not about flesh. It is about our flesh being cast off to reveal that other house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. It too is about a 'body', just not a flesh type body. It instead is a body type of the heavenly. Remember the angels in God's Word? They have that heavenly type body. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:49 also called it the "image of the heavenly". You already have that spirit body dwelling inside your flesh body, and it seeks to be loosed from your flesh body in the glorious manifesting of the sons of God (Romans 8). That won't happen until Jesus returns, so until then, our house not made with hands groans in bondage by our flesh shell given us for this present world.

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Paul is speaking spiritually with that above idea.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul even refers to the death swallowed up in victory passage in Isaiah 25 which hints about ALL... peoples being changed with their flesh cast off to reveal their heavenly body. It uses the idea of this fleshy world being like a veil covering. And when Jesus returns, that veil being removed for ALL peoples, not just Christ's Church.

Isa 25:6-8
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV

It really sickens me to hear conceited brethren brag about their future resurrection while thinking God is going to leave the wicked in flesh bodies to burn in hell. Those brethren show hatred... in their souls that has the need to be corrected! And it will be corrected when Jesus returns, and they are made to bow before His elect priests to learn how they have heeded the world and men's doctrines, instead of God's Word.

Death is going to be swallowed up in victory FOR ALL PEOPLES AND NATIONS, not just the Church. In that future time after Jesus returns, the wicked will STILL be subject to the "second death" condition though, unless they repent and covert to Lord Jesus Christ. However, their spiritual body will be manifest also in that future time. Paul also called that "spiritual body" the body of "incorruption". And it is made 'immortal' ONLY by Faith on Jesus Christ.


5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Home in what... body? In our flesh body. For this present world time, which is temporary, being born in the flesh means our temporary home for our spirit with soul is in our flesh body. Our flesh is of this earthly material dimension, but our spirit body with soul is of the Heavenly dimension. So don't make the mistake of trying to mix the two together, because they are not attached to our flesh body that way. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed there is an invisible "silver cord" that keeps our spirit with soul attached to our flesh body, and at death of our flesh body that "silver cord" is severed, and thus our spirit with soul is loosed back to The Father. But our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from.

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul indicated that a spiritual body is incorruptible, glorious and powerful. So, you believe that in the future when the last trumpet sounds unbelievers will have incorruptible, glorious and powerful spiritual bodies at that point?

 

[Davy]

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul indicated that a spiritual body is incorruptible, glorious and powerful. So, you believe that in the future when the last trumpet sounds unbelievers will have incorruptible, glorious and powerful spiritual bodies at that point?

You are adding more to that body of "incorruption" than what Paul did. Paul was pointing to the STATE of IMMORTALITY with that body of "incorruption" FOR THOSE IN CHRIST'S CHURCH. You MISSED the fact that it MUST BE MADE IMMORTAL BY FAITH ON JESUS CHRIST to fit your description.

And the reason you MISSED the above, is because you failed to recognize Paul revealed TWO CHANGES that must happen to have ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST, not just ONE.

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

So if you want to stay ignorant of what Paul taught in the above, then keep OMITTING that "and" conjunction which shows a SECOND CHANGE is required to have Eternal Life, and that is about that body of "incorruption" being MADE IMMORTAL BY FAITH ON JESUS CHRIST.

Not recognizing that distinction also means you have failed to understand the following metaphor by Jesus about the walking dead...

Matt 23:27
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
KJV

Unless one is "born again" by The Spirit through Faith on Jesus Christ, their soul/spirit is still in a dead condition subject to the "second death".

And that's another thing you have failed to grasp, i.e., the "second death", which is NOT about a second flesh death, but about one's soul/spirit cast into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's Millennial reign.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are adding more to that body of "incorruption" than what Paul did.

No, I'm not. I showed exactly what Paul said.

Paul was pointing to the STATE of IMMORTALITY with that body of "incorruption" FOR THOSE IN CHRIST'S CHURCH. You MISSED the fact that it MUST BE MADE IMMORTAL BY FAITH ON JESUS CHRIST to fit your description.

What are you talking about? I clearly showed the differentiation between the natural body that Paul said is corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal with the spiritual body that we will have when Jesus comes at the last trumpet and our bodies are changed to be incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal. So, I ask you again. Do you believe that unbelievers will have glorious, powerful, incorruptible and immortal spiritual bodies?

And the reason you MISSED the above, is because you failed to recognize Paul revealed TWO CHANGES that must happen to have ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST, not just ONE.

LOL. I missed nothing. And I'm not missing right now that you are trying to twist scripture to make it say what you want it to say, as you so often do.

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

Hello? This is saying this corruptible and mortal natural body like we have now must put on incorruption and immortality. Very simple. But, since you just believe whatever you want to believe instead of what scripture teaches, you butcher the verse to make it say what you want it to say.

So if you want to stay ignorant of what Paul taught in the above, then keep OMITTING that "and" conjunction which shows a SECOND CHANGE is required to have Eternal Life, and that is about that body of "incorruption" being MADE IMMORTAL BY FAITH ON JESUS CHRIST.

LOL! I don't omit the and. I recognize that the natural body we have now is both corruptible AND mortal. Hello? Why do you make simple things complicated?

Not recognizing that distinction also means you have failed to understand the following metaphor by Jesus about the walking dead...

Matt 23:27
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
KJV

Unless one is "born again" by The Spirit through Faith on Jesus Christ, their soul/spirit is still in a dead condition subject to the "second death".

I never denied this. What is the name of the straw man you are talking to here?

And that's another thing you have failed to grasp, i.e., the "second death", which is NOT about a second flesh death, but about one's soul/spirit cast into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's Millennial reign.

Scripture says that those who will suffer the second death do so after being resurrected. If it's not their body being resurrected from the dead, then what is it? Their soul/spirit are not literally dead and will not be resurrected.

 

[Davy]

No, I'm not. I showed exactly what Paul said.

Well, no, you did not, because you failed to grasp about the "resurrection of damnation", and particularly Paul's mention that his hope there will be both a resurrection of the just and the unjust, per Acts 24:15. And Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29 revealed there will be a "resurrection of damnation", which means of course the wicked dead having the body of "incorruption" which is about the "spiritual body", the body of the resurrection. You're just not thinking.

What are you talking about? I clearly showed the differentiation between the natural body that Paul said is corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal with the spiritual body that we will have when Jesus comes at the last trumpet and our bodies are changed to be incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal. So, I ask you again. Do you believe that unbelievers will have glorious, powerful, incorruptible and immortal spiritual bodies?

What I am talking about I have already said many times. In the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Scripture, Paul made a distinction of having ONLY the body of incorruption while still having a MORTAL SOUL.

Surely when you study your Bible you don't try and ISOLATE a Bible Chapter by itself while forgetting all other Bible Scripture. Yet, that exactly is what you are doing, and here is why. In the Revelation 20 Chapter, Jesus revealed the wicked will still exist after His future return. We know this because of mention of the "second death". That Chapter also defines... that "second death" being the casting into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign mentioned there. So you gonna' tell me you have not read that about that "second death", that you don't know about it? Has men's doctrines got you so confused that you don't even know what that "second death" is about???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, no, you did not, because you failed to grasp about the "resurrection of damnation", and particularly Paul's mention that his hope there will be both a resurrection of the just and the unjust, per Acts 24:15. And Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29 revealed there will be a "resurrection of damnation", which means of course the wicked dead having the body of "incorruption" which is about the "spiritual body", the body of the resurrection. You're just not thinking.

This is complete gibberish. Try again and speak coherent English this time.

What I am talking about I have already said many times. In the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Scripture, Paul made a distinction of having ONLY the body of incorruption while still having a MORTAL SOUL.

He never did that. Only in your imagination.

Surely when you study your Bible you don't try and ISOLATE a Bible Chapter by itself while forgetting all other Bible Scripture.

Of course. But, that doesn't mean you can just twist what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 to make it say whatever you want it to say.

Yet, that exactly is what you are doing, and here is why. In the Revelation 20 Chapter, Jesus revealed the wicked will still exist after His future return. We know this because of mention of the "second death". That Chapter also defines... that "second death" being the casting into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign mentioned there. So you gonna' tell me you have not read that about that "second death", that you don't know about it? Has men's doctrines got you so confused that you don't even know what that "second death" is about???

Your false Premil beliefs are completely unconvincing. You are clearly the confused one. You can only be Premil if you don't do what you mentioned earlier about forgetting all other Bible Scripture. You interpret Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture and you cause it to contradict many other scriptures.