Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2
- Thread starter Episkopos
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God takes us into the wilderness to sort us out. Most perish there never coming to the knowledge of the truth. It's not that this is inevitable. We can exercise a free will....but to get things right we need to purposefully go against ourselves....swear to our own hurt..go against what was based on a self-interest up to that point. We need to let go our lives and previous indoctrination that has seduced the masses.
But almost no one feels comfortable with breaking from the crowd. To go it seemingly alone with God. And that why there is little to no faith in today's religious circles.
We have a free will...but that will is almost seamlessly connected to a fallen nature of self-preservation. But we need to lose our lives in order to find them. The truth sets us free....
But almost no one feels comfortable with breaking from the crowd. To go it seemingly alone with God. And that why there is little to no faith in today's religious circles.
We have a free will...but that will is almost seamlessly connected to a fallen nature of self-preservation. But we need to lose our lives in order to find them. The truth sets us free....
Ok. The evangelical church of today isn't what it used to be. My impression is that it used to be better overall. I wouldn't call it a decoy system though, as concerns the past.........protestant evangelicalism was vastly more genuine and on the right track than the RCC decoy/counterfeit......though it is tragically veering off the foundation in modern times.
Oh dear. CHRIST is our foundation, not the Law....His example and teachings....along with the prophets and apostles. The new covenant is not based/founded on the Law at all....that is simply not what the scriptures teach. That sounds like another gospel, not the new testament gospel. True believers (of the Spirit, not just nominal) are not under the Law. We are under grace/mercy...that is why it was necessary to explicitly instruct and charge us that we are not to abuse our liberty by deliberately using it as a cloak or license to sin....that could get a person disqualified. God does require sincerity from us....He is not mocked.
A change in the Law means we are not under it....and we have been freed from the curse of it and are under a new law now.......a new covenant and new law of love and of liberty. God's word says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags.....and indicates that seeking to establish our own righteousness fails and falls short. You seem to be contradicting those scriptures.
There is a difference between self-righteousness and righteousness of God. We obey as believers largely because He has changed us and given us a new heart, and therefore we want to please Him....our new righteousness overall proceeds from our new heart. Though I believe we have examples where human righteousness and a good conscience in sincerity can attract God's favour....Cornelius for instance....the Lord responded by saving him. (Of course the Lord saves wicked and rebellious people too though, as we have heard many testimonies.) I'm not saying believers cannot be self-righteous though....that happens as well unfortunately.... from the flesh.
The "much is required" I take to be things like spiritual sacrifices instead of physical animals and crops. Fruit that indicates inward change, not just improving outward behaviour.....for example, not only forsaking adultery but inward lusting as well, and not only do not murder, but don't hate inwardly as well (Raca!), and things like not demanding our rights, forgiving enemies, turning the other cheek instead of avenging ourselves, etc. Very different from the old covenant where not as much was required.
I agree we can be cut off........and that faith is required to enter. (Many are trying to enter without faith, and without a wedding garment so to speak. False brethren, tares, nominal, and the disobedient.) But there is a process of entering in an ongoing present tense, as well as that we have already entered in the past tense, when we were saved by faith ("we who believe have entered")....... as well as that when we are walking in the Spirit and faith we are walking in Zion/promised land. I see our part as being to run the race so as to win it, with all our heart and sincerity........those who don't attain to walking in the Spirit 24/7/365 in this life I don't believe it means they are cut off as long as they have been "running well".
Nowhere is the word teaching that we need to be walking in the Spirit all the time or else be cut off. What I believe we are required to do is keep growing, and seeking the Lord, as far as we are able and are given grace and time to do so. Many believers die before reaching any state of maturity, (and some only come to Christ on their deathbed and die as babes).....surely it doesn't mean anyone is cut off as long as they were doing what they could in sincerity and according to what they attained up until then.
Our understanding needs to be in spirit with these things, not set in cement of the carnal mind and a two- dimensional letter like under the old covenant, but more fluid and three- dimensional in Spirit of the new covenant, as I think of it. There is grace/mercy for us.....because we need it, not because we don't
.
In my sincere observation, something in you needs healing Epi. It's as though you're often projecting your own self-recrimination onto others. Maybe there is a deep seated false belief of never measuring up or being good enough due to a harsh upbringing....or something like that.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Funny how you are still here on earth. Weird.
Comments such as this are borderline cultist because we can walk in the Holy Spirit here and enjoy the presence of the Holy Spirit living within us here, but unless the Lord has some special assignment (like Paul witnessing Heaven which was a vision) then none of us actually go to Heaven until we die.
So if you are going to say stuff like this, it needs to be explained according to scripture which does not teach we leave here and go be in Heaven right after we get born again. Sure we are IN Christ and through Him we have citizenship in Heaven but we are still here on earth amongst the heatherns who we should be trying to win to the Lord which is the primary reason we are still here.
God loves them heatherns and wants us to be reaching out to them.
Reckon God made some to be that way and Jesus did not go to the Cross for those that are that way as the calvinists claim?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Actually the born again CHRISTian is already "crucified with Christ"......so, if you dont understand this, as you dont, and if you are not actually "crucified with Christ" then you would be trying to do it for yourself. @Episkopos , while pretending that this is your "righteousness".
So, again your horrible Cross Denying Theology is the Typical uninformed teaching of a self righteous hyper religious theological hack, who does not understand "imputed righteousness".
Now, Notice a NT.
Notice in one, is Paul the Apostle.
Paul does not tell you to "crucify the flesh".... He tells a believer that they... "already have" in Galatians 5....
Paul tells the born again to therefore : ""reckon the old man dead"" and that is because the "old man of sin" is ALREADY "crucifed with Christ", regarding every born again believer.
So, when a religious fakir does not understand any of this, .. then they will be found lying on a forum ranting about "doing righteousness" vs having already been given the "imputed righteosnes" of God that is "The Gift of Righteousness"..that is given to every born again believer = the very INSTANT they trusted in Christ.
Now, There is a reason you dont have it @Episkopos , and you revealed this carefully within your bizarre Salvation Testamony, when you explained that you never trusted in Christ, you never were forgiven all your sin, and in fact, Jesus and The Cross and Trusting in Christ are not even ONCE mentioned in your personal Salvation Testimony.
Reader, what devil owned HERETICs can't comprehend or understand or accept, is that on DAY ONE = the very moment a Sinner is redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, they have become "in Christ". as "one with GOD"...... as = "The Righteousness of God in Christ", and they can never become any more righteous, as they have received God's ""imputed" Righteousess.
Hyper Religious Hevetics will never understand this because you have to be SAVED to be able to receive the revelation of what it means to have become "in Christ' as "The righteousness of God in Christ".
Now, i know that you are going to eventually "revise" your Salvation Testimony, and post it.........but that is going to be a problem for you, because you have already posted the "original" manuscript. @Episkopos
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Yeah that's not automatic as man has free will and after getting born again can easily go back to walk after their flesh
You need to get you a fresh load of Philippians 4:13 (I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me) and understand we are co laborers with Christ - 1 Corinthians 3:9-11
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit
do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of
the flesh.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers (imitators) of God, as dear children;
Ephesians 4:22-24
put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is
corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in
righteousness and true holiness.
Romans 13:14
put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the
flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after
the image of Him that created Him:
2 Corinthians 6:17
come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord,
and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
It's man's responsibility to ABIDE IN CHRIST which is the only way His righteousness is applicable to us (walking after the Spirit)
You must be one of them calvinists.
John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:5
IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!
John 15:4,5
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!
John 15:8-10
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
HOW are we to abide in Christ, thru our own strength and ability???
NO... thru the Lord Who strengthens us!
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Did you ever read Philippians 4:13 ???
Yeah notice that's something we do, is RECKON the old man dead meaning we are to consider (think, act) like the old man is dead by putting on the new man
Yeah reader, be sure to ignore that calvinists and those following the false doctrines of so called reformed theology which is not based on God's Word but is based on scripture twisting and ignoring portions of scripture they don't agree with as they refuse to accept the whole counsel of God.
Romans 11:20-22
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest
by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also
spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which
fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his
goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Those not continuing in His Goodness (walking in the Spirit,
Abiding IN Christ) shall be cut of because God is not mocked, what
we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh
reap corruption:
Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth,
that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but
he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away
from the Lord, God will let them do so.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil
John 15:2
Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every
branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth
more fruit.
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit
do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 13:14
put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the
flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
This is something man does THROUGH the power of the Holy Spirit
and not in own own strength and ability
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me
2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel
unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared
unto every good work.
1 Peter 1:22
purify your souls in obeying the truth
Behold
Well-Known Member
Im more then happy to let you continue to SPAM this Thread, with your cut and paste nonsense as it certainly does not deserve anything better.
However, on your way there @Dan Clarkston ....... we notice you have not yet learned that once a Sinner has been birthed as forgiven and "made righteous" by God's Holy Spirit.... then there is no going back (Spiritually) , as you can't stop being born again.
Now you can't comprehend that eternal reality, @Dan Clarkston , and i dont think you ever will, as you're just a "im trying not to lose my salvation" novice believer, who can not explain this statement...
1.) "once Jesus has saved you, you stay saved eternally the very the same WAY you originally became saved for eternity"..
So, .... Sorry to utterly confuse you with that simple truth about God's "Gift of Salvation"., but you have to remember, that you are just a tool with a very loud mouth on this Fourm, that a few of the real Christians here use as a prime example of what its like to be someone who understands so very little about the NT regarding the eternal redemption that is found "in Christ".
And yes i know you want to start foaming at the mouth regarding your obsession with "OSAS"....and you are free to do so... @Dan Clarkston .
As usual.
So, get back up there on your one track mindset, and run around it for awhile for all to see, again.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
I see so YOU are the only one allowed to reply in your mind in which you are a legend
Thank you for proving and demonstrating that you don't know God's Word and actually claim portion of God's Word are lies.
Claiming the Lord is a liar ends badly bud, just an FYI
You cannot confuse me, but you are sorry. Very sorry.
Well the past isn't what it used to be. Actually there is no religious system that can represent the kingdom of God. There are just a few individuals and the odd revival that we can know about who were conformed to Christ. All systems are decoys. God is not being personal in His holiness. We are flesh and dust and VERY FEW of us ever advance from an initial grace. Most are like so many here...willfully contradicting the truth in exchange for a salvation scheme that lines up with their self-interest. People tend to follow other people, not Christ.
Christ is the foundation of a holy church that walks in resurrection life. The apostles and prophets were holy. What you are assuming flows from what is the decoy, not the real thing. The real thing is as rare as hen's teeth. Would Jesus find any faith in the earth today? Well, a LOT of religious beliefs and philosophies...but all without power. All generated by wishful thinking, not a living hope.
You are not understanding what law means. If there is no law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus then no one could escape the law of sin and death. If there was no law of flight then airplanes would not exist. Again, you only have a theoretical knowledge of what you read in the bible. You only see metaphors and figurative language where you should see a testimony of the life and power of God.
That's just more of your "positional" nonsense. As long as people live in the power of the Adamic nature, they are still under the law. There is no fiction in God's economy. Unless people walk in the POWER of the Spirit, they are not under grace. The truth is that MOST real believers are in a transitional mode...a wilderness walk ....BETWEEN being under the law and being under grace. The bible says that those who are LED (think wilderness) by the Spirit are not under the law. But it doesn't say that those who are LED by the Spirit are under grace.
Instead of following church traditions...read Exodus.
Again you are assuming that Paul is talking about you..and that Jesus is not talking about you when He says... poor naked wretched and blind.
No, a change in the law for holiness means that we are no longer to sacrifice animals and such for holiness.
Only for those who have had their Adamic nature crucified so as to not sin. In Him is no sin. Otherwise as Paul says you are making Jesus a minister of sin. God forbid.
That's because the words of God are spiritually discerned, not religious accepted as being understood. All the people who claim to be as righteous as God are just self-deluded and self-righteous...actually worse than the Pharisees. With a higher covenant comes greater sins...more lofty sins. We are no different than the Jews...just as deluded...but our sins are more bold and elevated. More like the devil. The solution is something very few will do...fear the Lord and become humble so as no longer to follow self-righteousness.
There is a difference between God imputing a man's own righteousness onto him and a self-righteous posture of bible readers who assume Paul is speaking about them.
The process of salvation is not about a new heart...but a soul conversion we are to work out with fear and trembling. What you see in the decoy systems are people rejoicing in their spirit salvation with hubris and unreality. A LOT of burying one's talent in assuming and presuming. No fear...no humility, no reality.
Not saving them...elevating them into the family of God through the power of the Spirit.
Jesus did NOT come to call the righteous to repentance, but to call the righteous to follow Him.
I know you have said that you agree theoretically with such things as humility and the fear of the Lord. But God requires more than lip-service.
I have never said that. That's a strawman. We are cut off for naming and claiming. God saves the righteous...He only condemns the hypocrites. That's why my warnings are so pertinent to the condition of most of the modern church.
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You have not understood the bible at it's proper depth. What do you think Paul means when he says that He has translated the saints into the kingdom of His dear Son??? Or the perfection of those who have come to Mount Zion...the city of the living God. Hebrews says "you have"...not "you will".
What gave it away??? ;) But truthfully it seems you have not yet run across someone who actually knows God's holy standard...the terror of the Lord. Humility dictates that you cease thinking your religious philosophy is the same as walking in the Spirit. You are simply building a sepulcher on high with your assumptions. No fear and no wisdom.
Very Interesting. It left me with two questions
1) Is there anything we can do to motivate God to sovereignly bring us to the higher level (so we can taste and see)
2) How would you present the gospel to a potential convert that knew very little of gospel truths?
Besides fearing God and abasing ourselves in humility before Him, we can repent of our ways and then rejoice from the heart based on our love for God and His ways. We enter into His gates with thanksgiving. God loves the truth. Those who love God should learn to grow in love of God and His eternal truth. After that I would say we need to cast ourselves on Him...cry out. Like a fisherman that casts his line as far as possible...by faith. When we empty ourselves, we are inviting the Lord to fill us. And chiefly we are never to stop seeking His face. If there is a time when we would give up, God sees the future and He knows you will give up. So then we must see that there is no other way than a full surrender to God. When we do this with ALL our heart, the Lord finds us.
The first level of salvation (for anyone off the street) apart from regeneration, is to turn (repent) from evil and fear God and do His commandments...so then going from being wicked to righteousness, learning humility and thankfulness to Christ who loves us and gave Himself for us, so that we turn from our own ways to the way that can save us.
For the convert who is regenerated by the Spirit I would say that they have embarked on the race of faith to the saving of the soul. One is better off to see the saving of the soul as being SEPARATE from the regeneration of the heart. Again, the fear of the Lord and humility...and working out one's own salvation with fear and trembling. A conversion on this level is unto holiness. God chastens those He loves...get ready for a hard time and much tribulation...but at the end great glory.
The holiness level of walk does not negate the lower walk in righteousness and obedience. It actually supports it and leads to Christ-likeness in character, being tested even more thoroughly in the fire of holiness...but with the same attributes that the righteous have. Basically the call of God in Christ is a deeper walk that few will be able to accept. For those who find holiness intolerable and hate the rebuke of God...at LEAST do as the righteous do. :)
Righteousness is about INHERITING life at a future time. Holiness is about entering into resurrection life right now while we yet live. Any time spent in holiness now results in an eternal reward of glory. Whatever time is not spent in holiness must be taken up in righteousness and learning to walk humbly with God. If we don't learn righteousness and develop Christ-like character, then we forego any reward for the time we have spent in holiness. Obedience to God's commandments is NOT optional.
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
It does not mean they are literally in Heaven. If you would have paid attention to what I said, I brought up that we are IN Christ and our citizenship is in Heaven thru Him, but we are still here on earth physically.
Are you suggesting like some charismatics that we can literally go to Heaven and hang out with the Lord and chat with Him over coffee as in physically going to Heaven?
Yes, spiritually speaking. Our identity is in a Person Who is Jesus Christ, not a place.
You should embrace Jesus Christ and abide in Him and stop worrying about places so you can start understanding the Gospel in it's proper depth.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
No He doesn't. It was never God's will for any of His people to wander around apart from Him aimlessly especially in the New Covenant after He sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us in to all Truth.
Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)
What you are suggesting is the Lord is the One leading people in to darkness to test them which is not biblical since God says in His Word He is not tempting, testing, or trying any man with evil - James 1:13
I hear this frequently like when someone gets cancer or some other disease people claim the Lord is testing them. No, that's the devil using affliction to choke the Word out of their lives so they become unfruitful as Jesus taught in Mark 4:13-20 where He lists the 5 things the devil uses to choke the Word out of people - The 5 things are... affliction, persecution, cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, and lusts of other things
According to what Jesus taught in Mark 4:13-20, if a person allows any of these to ENTER IN then the Word of God will be choked out of them and they become unfruitful which ends badly according to what Jesus teaches in John 15 unless they repent and get back on the right track with the Lord.
There's no faith in "religious circles" due to all the deception being taught, the darkened wisdom of men being taught as though it were the Wisdom of the Lord which it is not.
One can "break from the crowd" all they want but if they are accepting and living in carnal man made religious teachings they are just as bound to sin and darkness as the crowd is.
Not for Real Christians it's not. Real Christians walk after the leading of the Holy Spirit having been bought with a price as they understand they are not their own no longer being connected to the old sinful nature any longer.
That's not what the Lord actually said.
He said those that continue in His Word would be His disciples indeed (acting on His Word) then they would know the Truth and the Truth would make them free
John 8:31,32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
1 Peter 1:22 tells us our soul is purified by obeying the truth
John 17:17
Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy word is Truth.
Just knowing that God's Word is Truth does not actually set anybody free.
One must walk in God's Word continually abiding IN Christ to actually live free from the effects of sin and darkness while living on Club Earth
James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
I think sovereign is the right word here....the Spirit blows where it wills. Our job is not to seek experiences per se but to follow/obey/pursue the Lord.
According to scripture, it is not with wise words of men but through the foolishness of preaching and power of the Holy Spirit.
Ah, I see.....you believe that a nominal belief is the first level of salvation. First time I heard you say that out loud. Whereas Jesus said one must be born of the spirit to both see and enter the kingdom of God. That is the gospel......it is the gospel of the kingdom.
Israel under the old covenant were nominal believers (except for those relative few who had genuine faith - which the new testament points to as worthy of emulating). They all were still without Christ under the old covenant.......they all needed to actually receive Him to be saved, and as we know many rejected Him and thus were rejected by God. Nominal believers are ones who are "under the Law" so to speak, much like Israel was, not those who are regenerated and born of the Spirit.
What nominal belief and righteousness can apparently do though, is attract material blessings for this life, just like under the old covenant. It is not sufficient for spiritual blessings like eternal life....which is what salvation is. With some souls it apparently can also attract the favour of God if their hearts are right, such that He will then save them through the gospel, like with Cornelius.
But I have met nominal believers who, like most of Israel did, reject the gospel, and are even enemies of it. So what spirit is that of? Their nominal belief and own righteousness certainly doesn't avail them of any level of salvation.
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Love those scriptures, amen..
Though I believe God does lead us through the wilderness, just like He led the children of Israel into and through the wilderness. Testing and trying and proving of our faith. I agree it is not the Lord doing the tempting though.......the devil seeks to sift us like with Job and Peter.
@Episkopos......on the subject of holiness, I'm sure you must have read and looked into other Christian writers/preachers of the past on the subject over the years......I want to ask you, which ones would you recommend? (And feel free to mention, if you want, if you have any points of disagreement with any of them.)
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