TODAY IS NOT GOD'S GATHERING OF ISRAEL

[Davy]

This is complete gibberish. Try again and speak coherent English this time.


He never did that. Only in your imagination.


Of course. But, that doesn't mean you can just twist what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 to make it say whatever you want it to say.


Your false Premil beliefs are completely unconvincing. You are clearly the confused one. You can only be Premil if you don't do what you mentioned earlier about forgetting all other Bible Scripture. You interpret Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture and you cause it to contradict many other scriptures.

No reason to continue with you about this, because you have the need to recognize the "resurrection of damnation" is a resurrection to the body of "incorruption" also. And that means Christ's Salvation requires that the soul put on "immortality" also. So this is NOT gibberish. It is what Apostle Paul was showing in 1 Corinthians 15. You have simply chosen to reject what Paul said there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No reason to continue with you about this, because you have the need to recognize the "resurrection of damnation" is a resurrection to the body of "incorruption" also.

Paul indicated that the incorruptible body that we will have will also be glorious and powerful.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So, do you really want to claim that those who are resurrected to damnation will have glorious and powerful spiritual bodies?

And that means Christ's Salvation requires that the soul put on "immortality" also. So this is NOT gibberish. It is what Apostle Paul was showing in 1 Corinthians 15. You have simply chosen to reject what Paul said there.

I am not saying that unbelievers will be annihilated and no longer will exist after being resurrected. I'm simply saying that he was focused on what will happen to believers in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Davy]

Paul indicated that the incorruptible body that we will have will also be glorious and powerful.

Paul was speaking of our spiritual body ONCE IT PUTS ON IMMORTALITY like he taught. The resurrection body of the wicked dead that are RAISED will NOT put on IMMORTALITY.

Thus your doctrine, which is from man, and not from Apostle Paul, because you OMIT what Paul showed that "this mortal must put on immortality" is also a requirement.

So you can try and dance around that fact of what Paul said all you want, and it only makes you look foolish.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul was speaking of our spiritual body ONCE IT PUTS ON IMMORTALITY like he taught.

Exactly. That will occur at the last trumpet. At that time our natural body will be changed into an incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual body, as Paul indicated.

The resurrection body of the wicked dead that are RAISED will NOT put on IMMORTALITY.

Not in the way that the righteous dead will. As Paul indicated, the dead in Christ will be raised and their natural bodies will be changed to be incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies. That's not true of the wicked dead.

Thus your doctrine, which is from man, and not from Apostle Paul, because you OMIT what Paul showed that "this mortal must put on immortality" is also a requirement.

I don't OMIT that.

So you can try and dance around that fact of what Paul said all you want, and it only makes you look foolish.

You just made yourself look foolish by foolishly making assumptions about what I believe that aren't true. It doesn't get much more foolish than that.

 

[Davy]

Exactly. That will occur at the last trumpet. At that time our natural body will be changed into an incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual body, as Paul indicated.

The 'change' Paul spoke of is actually about our flesh body being cast off, for like he said in 1 Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither can 'corruption' inherit 'incorruption'. So the divisions of our makeup how God created us still applies; we have a spirit body that Paul revealed in 2 Corinthians 5, and a soul that is linked to that spirit body image, and then a flesh body which is only of earthly material matter. Our spirit body with soul can be separated from our flesh body. All this is what The written Word of God reveals, as I have shown.

Not in the way that the righteous dead will. As Paul indicated, the dead in Christ will be raised and their natural bodies will be changed to be incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies. That's not true of the wicked dead.

The wicked dead that are raised will not... put on immortality, period. You still have not understood the distinction God's Word makes about the difference of our spirit vs. our soul. Our soul is our person, our individuality that makes each one of us a unique person. But our 'spirit' is about that other body Paul taught of in 2 Corinthians 5 that he said we have if our flesh house were suddenly dissolved. He also called it the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15:49. So you have that to contend with also in your understanding, because that "image of the heavenly" has nothing to do with flesh.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

That "image of the heavenly" is the "spiritual body" Paul covered, the body of "incorruption". It is of the heavenly order, not earthly matter. That's why Paul showed in 2 Cor.5 that we already have that image of the heavenly dwelling within our flesh body, and Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed that heavenly body is held in our flesh by an invisible "silver cord". And if that "silver cord" is loosed, i.e., severed, then the respective parts go back to where they originated. Our flesh goes back to its earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit (actually spirit body with soul attached) goes back to God Who gave it.

It was Paul's spirit body (body of incorruption, the image of the heavenly), that was "caught up" to the "third heaven", not his physical flesh. Paul said, "whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth...". Paul would not have made such a statement if that out of body idea were not a real phenomena. The Old Testament speaks of one's soul departing their flesh body, and especially with Eccl.12:5-7, so Paul obviously didn't think of that out of body idea being strange.

The ones who make understanding this difficult are those who push man's false theory of 'soul sleep', and that's where foolishness actually begins on this matter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 'change' Paul spoke of is actually about our flesh body being cast off, for like he said in 1 Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither can 'corruption' inherit 'incorruption'. So the divisions of our makeup how God created us still applies; we have a spirit body that Paul revealed in 2 Corinthians 5, and a soul that is linked to that spirit body image, and then a flesh body which is only of earthly material matter. Our spirit body with soul can be separated from our flesh body. All this is what The written Word of God reveals, as I have shown.

We don't have a spirit body inside of our flesh body. You have no idea of what you're talking about. We are made up of body, soul and spirit. Our natural body that we have now, which Paul said is corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal will be changed at the last trumpet into a spiritual body that is incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal. This is what Paul clearly taught and you can't refute this no matter what you do.

The wicked dead that are raised will not... put on immortality, period.

What do you mean by this? Do you think they will be resurrected only to then be annihilated afterwards?

You still have not understood the distinction God's Word makes about the difference of our spirit vs. our soul. Our soul is our person, our individuality that makes each one of us a unique person. But our 'spirit' is about that other body Paul taught of in 2 Corinthians 5 that he said we have if our flesh house were suddenly dissolved.

LOL. You are trying to say that our spirit is a body. Nonsense! You just make things up in your imagination all the time. How do you think anyone can take that seriously?

He also called it the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15:49. So you have that to contend with also in your understanding, because that "image of the heavenly" has nothing to do with flesh.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

That "image of the heavenly" is the "spiritual body" Paul covered, the body of "incorruption". It is of the heavenly order, not earthly matter. That's why Paul showed in 2 Cor.5 that we already have that image of the heavenly dwelling within our flesh body, and Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed that heavenly body is held in our flesh by an invisible "silver cord". And if that "silver cord" is loosed, i.e., severed, then the respective parts go back to where they originated. Our flesh goes back to its earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit (actually spirit body with soul attached) goes back to God Who gave it.

It was Paul's spirit body (body of incorruption, the image of the heavenly), that was "caught up" to the "third heaven", not his physical flesh. Paul said, "whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth...". Paul would not have made such a statement if that out of body idea were not a real phenomena. The Old Testament speaks of one's soul departing their flesh body, and especially with Eccl.12:5-7, so Paul obviously didn't think of that out of body idea being strange.

The ones who make understanding this difficult are those who push man's false theory of 'soul sleep', and that's where foolishness actually begins on this matter.

I don't believe in soul sleep, so that has nothing to do with my disagreement with you about this.

 

[Davy]

We don't have a spirit body inside of our flesh body.

Yeah we do. Apostle Paul covered it in the 2 Corinthians 5 Chapter...

2 Cor 5:1
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
KJV

What do you mean by this? Do you think they will be resurrected only to then be annihilated afterwards?

Are you a Universalist, and don't really believe any soul will perish at the future "second death"? Yes of course those who will still reject Lord Jesus after His return will go into the "lake of fire". And it won't be their flesh going into that fire, but their resurrection body with soul.

LOL. You are trying to say that our spirit is a body. Nonsense! You just make things up in your imagination all the time. How do you think anyone can take that seriously?

I'm not trying to say that, it is a body, the body type for the heavenly. That's why Paul called it the "IMAGE of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15:49! You aren't thinking.

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

What exactly is that above "image of the earthy"?? You do know what an IMAGE is, don't you? It's a likeness, an OUTWARD appearance of shape or form. Here on earth just what... is our image of the earthy? It's our FLESH BODY. I hate to make this overly simple, but you are forcing me too. How could you not understand this? What doctrines are you holding onto that is confusing you?

I don't believe in soul sleep, so that has nothing to do with my disagreement with you about this.

It certainly sounds like that's one of the doctrines causing you to be confused. The Jewish tradition about Gen.2:7 is the false idea that the soul is made of material matter with the flesh body, and both sleep in the grave and both must be resurrected.

When Jesus stated in John 3 that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit, He was actually describing the two separate realms of existence taught about in God's Word.

 

[shepherdsword]

WARNING BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Orthodox religious Jews, especially in today's Jerusalem since Israel became a nation again by U.N. vote in 1948, are pushing the lie that God is doing their final 'gathering' of His people there today, and that many prophecies about that event written in the Old Testament prophets is being fulfilled right now, in this present world time. And along with their wrongly believing that, they are planning to build their 3rd stone temple in today's Jerusalem, and already have the materials ready to start building it.

If you know your Bible history about God's split of the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, the southern "kingdom of Judah" (or "house of Judah"), and the northern "kingdom of Israel" (or "house of Israel"), the understand that the nation state called Israel today in the middle east represents ONLY the JEWS of the "house of Judah".

The LARGEST PORTION of the children of Israel, i.e., the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel", are STILL SCATTERED out of the holy land today, and will ONLY be gathered on the day when Jesus returns in our near future.

Bible prophecy Lord Jesus Christ gave for the very end of this world in His Olivet discourse reveals the requirement of a standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the "abomination of desolation" IDOL to be placed by that coming "man of sin" which Apostle Paul warned us that is coming to play God there. If you want to know how our Heavenly Father feels about that future IDOL in Jerusalem at the end of this world, see the Ezekiel 8 & 9 Chapters.

Because the majority of those Orthodox Jews reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, God is going to send them "strong delusion" in the form of a false-Messiah. And that will happen before Lord Jesus Christ's actual future coming after that. It's like Lord Jesus said, "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John 5:43)

This is most likely why some Jews have come here to a Christian forum to try and dispel any revelation about this matter, and especially against any idea that the Revelation 17 Babylon Harlot "great city" is JERUALEM for when that coming "man of sin" shows up there playing God.

The city of Jerusalem has been sieged 27 times through its history, and it is prophesied to go through a final 28th siege at the end of this world. That will be when that "man of sin" false-Messiah shows up there playing Messiah, working the great signs and wonders that Lord Jesus warned us about (Matthew 24:23-26).

The "lost" tribes are a myth. People from all of the tribes migrated into Judah after the fall of Israel. Rueben, Simeon, Levi and Benjamin were already dispersed in Judah. When Peter addressed the crowds in Jerusalem he didn't say "men of Judah" He said "men of Israel:

Ac 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


More proof in the scriptures that the tribes were not lost:

• 2 Chronicles 11:16–17: After the kingdom split, many people from "all the tribes of Israel" who wanted to remain faithful to God followed the Levites to Jerusalem. They settled in Judah to worship at the Temple, significantly strengthening the Southern Kingdom.
• 2 Chronicles 15:9: During the reign of King Asa, large numbers of people from Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon defected from the Northern Kingdom to Judah. They chose to move because they saw that "the Lord his God was with him".
• 2 Chronicles 30:11, 18: King Hezekiah sent an invitation to the northern tribes to celebrate Passover in Jerusalem. While many mocked the invitation, individuals from Asher, Manasseh, Zebulun, Issachar, and Ephraim humbled themselves and traveled to Judah to worship.
• Joshua 19:1: From the beginning of the tribal allotments, the tribe of Simeon was granted an inheritance that was geographically located entirely within the territory of the tribe of Judah.
• 1 Chronicles 9:3: In the record of those who returned to Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile, the text explicitly mentions people from the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh living alongside those of Judah and Benjamin.
• Luke 2:36: In the New Testament, the prophetess Anna is identified as being from the tribe of Asher, showing that individual tribal identities from the "lost" north were still preserved among the Jewish people in Judea centuries later.

So, you need some proof that the modern Jews are not descended from all the tribes. We know they are because they will be sealed by the Living God:

Rv 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

[Trekson]

WARNING BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Orthodox religious Jews, especially in today's Jerusalem since Israel became a nation again by U.N. vote in 1948, are pushing the lie that God is doing their final 'gathering' of His people there today, and that many prophecies about that event written in the Old Testament prophets is being fulfilled right now, in this present world time. And along with their wrongly believing that, they are planning to build their 3rd stone temple in today's Jerusalem, and already have the materials ready to start building it.

If you know your Bible history about God's split of the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, the southern "kingdom of Judah" (or "house of Judah"), and the northern "kingdom of Israel" (or "house of Israel"), the understand that the nation state called Israel today in the middle east represents ONLY the JEWS of the "house of Judah".

The LARGEST PORTION of the children of Israel, i.e., the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel", are STILL SCATTERED out of the holy land today, and will ONLY be gathered on the day when Jesus returns in our near future.

Bible prophecy Lord Jesus Christ gave for the very end of this world in His Olivet discourse reveals the requirement of a standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the "abomination of desolation" IDOL to be placed by that coming "man of sin" which Apostle Paul warned us that is coming to play God there. If you want to know how our Heavenly Father feels about that future IDOL in Jerusalem at the end of this world, see the Ezekiel 8 & 9 Chapters.

Because the majority of those Orthodox Jews reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, God is going to send them "strong delusion" in the form of a false-Messiah. And that will happen before Lord Jesus Christ's actual future coming after that. It's like Lord Jesus said, "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John 5:43)

This is most likely why some Jews have come here to a Christian forum to try and dispel any revelation about this matter, and especially against any idea that the Revelation 17 Babylon Harlot "great city" is JERUALEM for when that coming "man of sin" shows up there playing God.

The city of Jerusalem has been sieged 27 times through its history, and it is prophesied to go through a final 28th siege at the end of this world. That will be when that "man of sin" false-Messiah shows up there playing Messiah, working the great signs and wonders that Lord Jesus warned us about (Matthew 24:23-26).

It is complete yet? No. But if one rejects the idea that it actually began in 1948, y'all are just denying God's revealed truth. The Israel of today isn't who God is going to enter the millennium with, but some of them may be part of the born again nation of Israel's tomorrow.

 

[Davy]

The "lost" tribes are a myth. People from all of the tribes migrated into Judah after the fall of Israel. Rueben, Simeon, Levi and Benjamin were already dispersed in Judah. When Peter addressed the crowds in Jerusalem he didn't say "men of Judah" He said "men of Israel:

That above couldn't be any farther from the Biblical Truth as written. If what you said above were true, then there would be NO prophecies written in God's Word about the future gathering of the 2 separate houses back together again at Christ's return, the Ezekiel 37 Chapter reveals this emphatically.

So I'll not respond to the rest of your post, because I know you cannot get around that Ezekiel 37 prophecy of the two houses of Israel being joined back together at the end of this world when Messiah returns.

And then if you try to keep going with the false doctrines of men against that Ezekiel 37 revealing, then there are many more Bible prophecies showing how the ten northern tribes of Israel stay separate all the way to end, and are not lost to God, that He knows where they are even to this day.

 

[shepherdsword]

That above couldn't be any farther from the Biblical Truth as written. If what you said above were true, then there would be NO prophecies written in God's Word about the future gathering of the 2 separate houses back together again at Christ's return, the Ezekiel 37 Chapter reveals this emphatically.

Part of the Ez 37 prophecy has come to pass in 1948. They are just waiting for the Lord to return and cleanse them

So I'll not respond to the rest of your post,

You ignore what you cannot deal with.

because I know you cannot get around that Ezekiel 37 prophecy of the two houses of Israel being joined back together at the end of this world when Messiah returns.

And then if you try to keep going with the false doctrines of men against that Ezekiel 37 revealing, then there are many more Bible prophecies showing how the ten northern tribes of Israel stay separate all the way to end, and are not lost to God, that He knows where they are even to this day.

I just proved the 10 tribes are not lost. Deal with the verses I presented and stop playing the scripture vs scripture game.

 

[Davy]

Part of the Ez 37 prophecy has come to pass in 1948. They are just waiting for the Lord to return and cleanse them

To believe that would mean one does not believe the prophecies for the last generation of this world as given by Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse and per His Book of Revelation. Probably the worse case of false idol worship for this present world is coming to Jerusalem in the last generation, and it certainly will not be about Lord Jesus Christ returning. It will require Lord Jesus' 2nd coming to end it.

 

[shepherdsword]

To believe that would mean one does not believe the prophecies for the last generation of this world as given by Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse and per His Book of Revelation. Probably the worse case of false idol worship for this present world is coming to Jerusalem in the last generation, and it certainly will not be about Lord Jesus Christ returning. It will require Lord Jesus' 2nd coming to end it.

1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews.( Joel 2:32)

2)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)

3)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8)

4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)

5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)

6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22 Dan 2:44)

 

[Davy]

1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews.( Joel 2:32)

2)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)

3)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8)

4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)

5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)

6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22 Dan 2:44)

BEFORE... all that happens, the false-Messiah Lord Jesus warned His Church about per Matthew 24:23-26 is coming to Jerusalem first, to PLAY Messiah. The majority of Jews in the world will be deceived into believing that false-Messiah will be the True Messiah. Won't be. That's why Jesus and Apostles Paul and John gave the warnings at the END about that coming false one to Jerusalem.

How can we know many Jews will be deceived by that false-Messiah? Because Lord Jesus in Luke 23:27-30 revealed when He was being delivered up to be crucified how the "Daughters of Jerusalem" (put for the Jews) will be wishing for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us", when they see Jesus coming in the clouds, and they realize they have instead bowed to the wrong Messiah. Furthermore, the end of Zechariah 12 shows many in Jerusalem once Jesus returns will mourn for Him like a long lost son. Even in Revelation 16:15 when Jesus warned the Church that He comes "as a thief", those deceived will be found spiritually naked and in shame when He appears because of being fooled by the false-Messiah who comes first.

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh dear, two people arguing over prophecy without any understanding of what the prophecies actually are telling us.

1948 was the fulfilment of the Genesis 15:16 prophecy. Ezekiel 37 cannot happen until the Prophecy in Exodus 20:4-6 has run to the completion of the fourth age of the existence of Israel from the time of Isaac's birth. It is my understanding that this will happen around the year 2045 AD when God begins to gather the nation of Israel to Himself. At the present time the bones of Israel are just rattling in the breeze, so to speak, until God begins to cloth them in His Flesh and Spirit.

As to the Last Generation referenced in Matt 24:34, it has a time span of around 1,024 solar years.

In our own minds we can delude ourselves that we have God's complete understanding, but if we are lacking in one small part then all of our understanding of God's End Time Purposes is lacking.

 

[shepherdsword]

Oh dear, two people arguing over prophecy without any understanding of what the prophecies actually are telling us.

1948 was the fulfilment of the Genesis 15:16 prophecy. Ezekiel 37 cannot happen until the Prophecy in Exodus 20:4-6 has run to the completion of the fourth age of the existence of Israel from the time of Isaac's birth. It is my understanding that this will happen around the year 2045 AD when God begins to gather the nation of Israel to Himself. At the present time the bones of Israel are just rattling in the breeze, so to speak, until God begins to cloth them in His Flesh and Spirit.

As to the Last Generation referenced in Matt 24:34, it has a time span of around 1,024 solar years.

In our own minds we can delude ourselves that we have God's complete understanding, but if we are lacking in one small part then all of our understanding of God's End Time Purposes is lacking.

Great, another date setter with a presumption of superior knowledge. Just what we need.

 

[Jay Ross]

Great, another date setter with a presumption of superior knowledge. Just what we need.

You are probably right in your own mind when you made this statement, but did you reflect or meditate on what I had posted.

I certainly meditated and reflected on what you had posted and the time setting that you assumed was applicable to Ezekiel 37. I even provided two scripture references for you to consider and investigate to see if I was facing into the breeze or not.

I could have simply stated that Ez 37 will begin to unfold from the beginning of the Seventh Age/Generation which would have been in agreement with my posting that Ez 37 was applicable from around the year 2045AD.

 

[Douggg]

As to the Last Generation referenced in Matt 24:34, it has a time span of around 1,024 solar years.

A generation is 70 years, Psalms 90:10.

 

[Jay Ross]

A generation is 70 years, Psalms 90:10.

Douggggg, you are all over the place with timeframes on this forum.

 

[Douggg]

Douggggg, you are all over the place with timeframes on this forum.

Yes, I do a lot of end times time line charts.