Two Views of God's Plan for Humankind - which stand in stark contrast

[St. SteVen]

The two views of God's plan for humankind stand in stark contrast.

View #1)
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?

View #2)
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.

Question: What is the source of View #1 ?

John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What do these two contrasting views (correctly, or incorrectly) say about the character of God?

View #1) says:
God cares more for himself than humankind. And even though he takes a dim view of humanity,
he still needs to prove his superiority by crushing them under his boot heel. However, he still wants
a relationship with a select few, but NOT because he needs anything from us. He needs nothing.
Especially not from worthless humans. The Bible claims that he "no pleasure in the death of the wicked".
But doesn't explain why his plan is to bring death upon all of humankind. No pleasure?

View #2) says:
God cares deeply for humankind. His ultimate plan is to bring the whole family of humankind
together in their forever home with him. There will be healing for the nations. And for each individual
there will be reward, correction, restoration and redemption. Each one will have a part in eternity.

[

@St. SteVen, you are making the same mistake in interpreting God as the false religion of the ancient Greeks made. You attribute human characteristics to God, who is perfect, while humans are selfish and imperfect. You seem to neglect Adam and Eve's (and our) fall into sin, which distorted our humanity with selfishness. After all, sin is self-centeredness. God does everything out of his perfect love and justice. I don't know how you got View #1, but it is not that of any Christian I know and certainly isn't in the Bible.

Which part of #1 do you want me to respond to?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What do these two contrasting views (correctly, or incorrectly) say about the character of God?

View #1) says:
God cares more for himself than humankind. And even though he takes a dim view of humanity,
he still needs to prove his superiority by crushing them under his boot heel. However, he still wants
a relationship with a select few, but NOT because he needs anything from us. He needs nothing.
Especially not from worthless humans. The Bible claims that he "no pleasure in the death of the wicked".
But doesn't explain why his plan is to bring death upon all of humankind. No pleasure?

View #2) says:
God cares deeply for humankind. His ultimate plan is to bring the whole family of humankind
together in their forever home with him. There will be healing for the nations. And for each individual
there will be reward, correction, restoration and redemption. Each one will have a part in eternity.

I don't know how you got View #1, but it is not that of any Christian I know and certainly isn't in the Bible.

That is the view (with more own exaggerated emphasis) that I get from the church.
- Humankind = bad
- God will punish humankind
- Refusal of the free gift = eternal punishment

Which part of #1 do you want me to respond to?

I want you to respond to view #2.

 

[St. SteVen]

The two views of God's plan for humankind stand in stark contrast.

View #1
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?

View #2
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.

Question: What is the source of View #1 ?

John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

The two views of God's plan for humankind stand in stark contrast.

View #1
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?

View #2
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.

Question: What is the source of View #1 ?

John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Where did you get this form of View #1, St. SteVen? Your first and last sentences imply that God is selfish and give him motives that the Bible doesn't address. God's punishment does not reveal any human motives that seem to be described in your first sentence.

God has his perfect plans for all human events, while only allowing, not causing, evil; but humans are fully responsible for the actions they do, a mystery that the Bible does not solve for us.

Also, what do you mean by the "random"?

 

[St. SteVen]

Where did you get this form of View #1, St. SteVen? Your first and last sentences imply that God is selfish and give him motives that the Bible doesn't address. God's punishment does not reveal any human motives that seem to be described in your first sentence.

It's my own (rather sarcastic) statement that summarizes what most Christians believe. (as I see it)
Granted, a rather bitter pill to swallow.

God has his perfect plans for all human events, while only allowing, not causing, evil; but humans are fully responsible for the actions they do, a mystery that the Bible does not solve for us.

No response to view #2?

View #2
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.

Also, what do you mean by the "random"?

Arbitrary.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

It's my own (rather sarcastic) statement that summarizes what most Christians believe. (as I see it)
Granted, a rather bitter pill to swallow.


No response to view #2?

View #2
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.


Arbitrary.

@St. SteVen, it would be "a bitter pill to swallow" if God didn't give us the ability to humble our reasoning to his mysterious will. We can't reason everything out; he just hasn't revealed everything to us:

Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

View #2: Yes, you're right about his creation of Adam and Eve, but they, along with the rest of us, have rebelled against his will and ways and set ourselves up as the kings and queens of our lives. That image of God is now very tarnished by sin.

However, none of us deserves to be his adopted children, but he chooses us anyway, according to the mystery of his will because we don't know why he chooses some and passes by others, only through Jesus' death and resurrection.

He shows us his tender and tough love as our divine adoptive Parent--tender in rescuing and restoring us and tough by permitting struggles in our lives that he uses to strengthen us.

The amazing thing to me is that God allows me to be part of his family (though I will never be God), and I'm very thankful for the other Christians in my church and neighborhood. But I'm also thankful that he gives me the words to speak and write to bring honor to him with unbelievers. He gets 100% of the credit.

 

[Jericho]

View #1)
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?

This is biased mischaracterization. I've said it before, but it all goes back to free will (not predestination). He has given us a very high degree of freedom, even to the point of accepting or rejecting Him. And He did so because He wanted us to love Him freely. Love has to be a choice; otherwise, it's not love. But choices also come with consequences. The ability to love also creates the possibility for suffering. Those who choose to reject God cut themselves off from the source of life. Death and eternal separation are the consequences of that severed connection. It's not that they were meant as a punishment for rejecting Him, but it's the natural consequence of being separated from the source of life. So to me, universalism negates free will. It also nullifies the cross.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
View #1)
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?

This is biased mischaracterization.

Agree. It is intended to make a point.

I've said it before, but it all goes back to free will (not predestination). He has given us a very high degree of freedom, even to the point of accepting or rejecting Him. And He did so because He wanted us to love Him freely. Love has to be a choice; otherwise, it's not love.

The Bible says we are predestined. (the Elect)

But choices also come with consequences. The ability to love also creates the possibility for suffering. Those who choose to reject God cut themselves off from the source of life.

Not everyone has had a chance to make a choice. There are STILL unreached people groups.
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of Christ.

Death and eternal separation are the consequences of that severed connection. It's not that they were meant as a punishment for rejecting Him, but it's the natural consequence of being separated from the source of life.

That's the default arrangement according to those who believe in hell.
No one has to do anything to be under condemnation.

So to me, universalism negates free will. It also nullifies the cross.

Not true.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[Jack]

The most important doctrine in the NT: the EVERLASTING FIRE!

BILLIONS of humans will burn FOREVER who don't believe in Hell Fire!

 

[St. SteVen]

BILLIONS of humans will burn FOREVER who don't believe in Hell Fire!

Why do you believe that you won't join them?
Don't you deserve to burn?

 

[Jack]

Why do you believe that you won't join them?

Simple. I believe and DEFEND the Christian Bible.

Don't you deserve to burn?

We all do. But a FEW of us have repented and trust in God of the Bible. And then there's some who ATTACK the Bible like a messenger of Satan. They say things like, 'I don't trust the Bible (God of the Bible)'. Ring a bell?