Isaiah 6 Discussion

[TrevorHL]

Isaiah 6 Discussion

I have been interested in Isaiah 6 for some time, and I have gradually formed an opinion on many of the features of this chapter. I attended a home study class in my early 20’s and a number of different speakers gave an exposition of a chapter each evening. There was a period for discussion at the end of the class and I gave my very first comment ever on one of the features. My understanding and interest in this chapter have grown over the years since then.

There is a record of the calling of each of the Major Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel but there is a distinct difference in that the record of the calling of Jeremiah and Ezekiel is given at the beginning of their book, while the calling of Isaiah is given in chapter 6 and there is quite a lot of prophecy given in Isaiah chapters 1-5.

My general impression until recently has been that Isaiah 1 is an overall introduction to the Book, then Isaiah 2-5 was given in the reign of Uzziah and the regency of Jotham, then Isaiah 6 records the death of Uzziah and the special commissioning of Isaiah. This assumes that Isaiah was a general prophet during Isaiah 2-5. I have recently encountered another opinion, that Isaiah 6 is the beginning of Isaiah’s ministry, making Isaiah 2-5 prophecies given after Isaiah 6.

Has anyone considered this feature?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Isaiah 6 Discussion cont'd
I am not claiming to have any real proof, but I have gradually convinced myself that chapters 2-5 precede the events of Isaiah 6. I have not heard a thorough consideration of the other view except a statement or two from a respected speaker and expositor. I will leave this open for anyone who holds that view.

A few thoughts that have helped form my opinion.
1. There were a number of general prophets who may have been associated with a school of the prophets.
2. Isaiah's wife was a prophetess.
3. There was a prophet, Zechariah, directly assigned to counsel Uzziah, but Uzziah went astray after Zechariah's death.
4. Perhaps Uzziah did not pay much attention to Isaiah as a junior prophet.
5. I consider that Isaiah 2 fits the circumstances of the reign of Uzziah. Isaiah 2:1-4 is a strong reprimand by inference against Uzziah;s obsession with weapons of war and the following part of the chapter speaks about the judgements on the people and by inference King Uzziah.
6. Uzziah's pride reached its peak when Uzziah attempted to take the additional role of priest and as a result he was smitten with leprosy.
7. There was an earthquake of judgement during the reign of Uzziah because of their pride.
8. Isaiah 6 highlights the death of Uzziah and in contrast the major vision is the True King Priest, Jesus, sitting on His Throne in the Most Holy Place of the Temple.

Another interesting feature of Isaiah 6 is the Seraphim and these are unique to Isaiah 6. How are these different to the Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 and what can we understand by this brief mention in Isaiah 6?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Taken]

Hi Trevor-
Great Intense / deep Bible study is intriguing…puzzling…and gradual bit by bit eye opening.

Acknowledging from the get/go…
Scripture:
* is bit by bit, Knowledge (not understanding),
* is step by step a way to be with or without God,
* is nothing new, scenarios repeated, generation after generation.

* God fulfills His promises,(word), as should we.
* God Repays (His Debts), as should we.

* God… blesses (repays) Efforts of man.
* God… rewards (repays) Efforts of man.
* God… gifts (repays) Allegiance of man.

Gods Knowledge, is exclusively His.
The Understanding of Gods Knowledge, Also is exclusively exclusively His.

One of Gods Greatest Offerings to mankind…
IS He Shall “GIVE” His Understanding of His Knowledge…
“Exclusively To Those in a Committed, Bonded, Yoked, Allegiance WITH Him”.

And it is THEY ^^, who ARE directed to continue to hear, ready, study, and ASK, Him for His Understanding….
And wait…Be patient. He will respond.

In ISAIAH…men were hearing, believing following, then strayed…

In The NT, JEWS were Hearing, From the Disciples, the Apostles….believing, following, introducing Christ Jesus in their Synagogue's,… AND…?

The switch…
Jewish Apostles dying off…
Jews fell away…from teaching Christ Jesus’ role, in their Synagogues.
The Gentiles…grasp the mantle and began Establishing Churches, with Christ Jesus’ high-lighted Position and role.

And Today…
Any Organization, can Legally “call” itself a “Church”… write, establish, identify its DOCTRINE…
…modify, add, subtract to its DOCTRINE, as new generations emerge as Church (Appointed, Elected, Hired “ Expert” Counsels of) Authorities.

Frustrating, Maddening, Confusing, and a heavy weight to wade through all …
* This is okay, That is Not okay.
* This is a must required, That is Not allowed.

I / We personally, do Not have membership with or attend any “man-made Church”.

Our perspective…

My Church, My Membership is IN / With Christ Jesus’ Church…
24-7 the Door is Open.
The Teacher / Cleric (Christ Jesus) is Present.
24-7 Anyplace, Church, The Teacher, The Cleric is Available, Able, Willing…to Lead, Council, Direct, Guide, Give his Blessing of Word AND Understanding…According to Him.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Token,

One of Gods Greatest Offerings to mankind…
IS He Shall “GIVE” His Understanding of His Knowledge…
“Exclusively To Those in a Committed, Bonded, Yoked, Allegiance WITH Him”.
And it is THEY ^^, who ARE directed to continue to hear, ready, study, and ASK, Him for His Understanding….
And wait…Be patient. He will respond.

I appreciate your response and you seem to be alluding to the message of Isaiah 6:9-10 where possibly the vast majority would eventually not give heed to the preaching and example of Isaiah in his time, and to Christ and the Apostles in their time. The remarkable outcome nevertheless was the response of a faithful remnant and this was greatly enhanced in Hezekiah's time and in Jesus and the Apostles' time, especially as the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles and the end result the establishment of many "Ekklesias". Yes, understanding is very personal.

I / We personally, do Not have membership with or attend any “man-made Church”.
Our perspective…
My Church, My Membership is IN / With Christ Jesus’ Church…

Although my individual fellowship with God the Father and Jesus is direct and very personal I suggest that we need the fellowship of those of like mind, as counselled by the Apostles, and I belong to a meeting of about 50 members and we have seven other meetings in my region and we then also have strong fellowship throughout Australia and in many countries. I benefit from this larger fellowship in many ways.

Have you considered the sequence of Isaiah chapters 1-6 and do you have any thoughts on the Seraphim? Are these literal creatures or symbolic? I consider that they are only symbolic.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Taken]

Greetings Token,

I appreciate your response and you seem to be alluding to the message of Isaiah 6:9-10 where possibly the vast majority would eventually not give heed to the preaching and example of Isaiah in his time, and to Christ and the Apostles in their time. The remarkable outcome nevertheless was the response of a faithful remnant and this was greatly enhanced in Hezekiah's time and in Jesus and the Apostles' time, especially as the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles and the end result the establishment of many "Ekklesias". Yes, understanding is very personal.

Although my individual fellowship with God the Father and Jesus is direct and very personal I suggest that we need the fellowship of those of like mind, as counselled by the Apostles, and I belong to a meeting of about 50 members and we have seven other meetings in my region and we then also have strong fellowship throughout Australia and in many countries. I benefit from this larger fellowship in many ways.

We home study, nearly daily. We fellowship with whomever, where-ever we encounter others.

Have you considered the sequence of Isaiah chapters 1-6 and do you have any thoughts on the Seraphim? Are these literal creatures or symbolic? I consider that they are only symbolic.

I would say Seraphim are True / Real…have specific purposes, Humble Praising, Worshiping God, also assist in cleansing men from their Sin.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Token,

I would say Seraphim are True / Real…have specific purposes, Humble Praising, Worshiping God, also assist in cleansing men from thei r Sin.

The reason why I consider them to be only symbolic is firstly we have the Cherubim of say Ezekiel 1, Seraphim of Isaiah 6 and the Living Creatures of Revelation 4 and they are all different from each other. Each Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 has four different heads and four wings. Each Living Creature has only one head but have four different types of head and they have six wings. The Seraphim have six wings but in Isaiah 6 they are active in the Temple accompanying the enthroned King/Priest and these all seem to replace the Ark of the Covenant with the mercy Seat and the static Cherubim attached to the Ark.

I suggest that they are symbolic and represent Divine qualities, fully revealed in Jesus and qualities that we need to incorporate. For example Jesus was Yahweh's Servant and the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Taken]

Greetings again Token,

The reason why I consider them to be only symbolic is firstly we have the Cherubim of say Ezekiel 1, Seraphim of Isaiah 6 and the Living Creatures of Revelation 4 and they are all different from each other. Each Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 has four different heads and four wings. Each Living Creature has only one head but have four different types of head and they have six wings. The Seraphim have six wings but in Isaiah 6 they are active in the Temple accompanying the enthroned King/Priest and these all seem to replace the Ark of the Covenant with the mercy Seat and the static Cherubim attached to the Ark.

I suggest that they are symbolic and represent Divine qualities, fully revealed in Jesus and qualities that we need to incorporate. For example Jesus was Yahweh's Servant and the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks…

My POV is …
*ManKIND,
*AnimalKIND,
*AngelKIND,
*PlantKIND
Are diverse…
*In Appearance…
*In Purpose…

Of course, man can SEE, men, animals, plants… and recognize by appearance, and figure their purpose.

Angels, are spirits, invisible to Human eyes,
BUT with great POWER, to Appear, to human eyes…in Forms, men can See.

What ANGELS “Really look like”, we have a BIT, of an oral description of their Appearance and a BIT, of oral information of their Purpose, and a BIT of information regarding their “classification Descriptive names”.

Why…only little BITS…?
I would speculate… Because they ARE Present about us, but we can not See them, as they are.
Also would speculate…Because “once” a man himself, is Risen in his own Glorified body…
And Can SEE Angels, as THEY ARE…We would Recognize Them, by oral description, and Know their purpose….
And Dare say… NOT be Fooled, by the Appearance of a Fallen Angel.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Greetings again Token,

The reason why I consider them to be only symbolic is firstly we have the Cherubim of say Ezekiel 1, Seraphim of Isaiah 6 and the Living Creatures of Revelation 4 and they are all different from each other. Each Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 has four different heads and four wings. Each Living Creature has only one head but have four different types of head and they have six wings. The Seraphim have six wings but in Isaiah 6 they are active in the Temple accompanying the enthroned King/Priest and these all seem to replace the Ark of the Covenant with the mercy Seat and the static Cherubim attached to the Ark.

I suggest that they are symbolic and represent Divine qualities, fully revealed in Jesus and qualities that we need to incorporate. For example Jesus was Yahweh's Servant and the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks.

I believe, Big Picture… God IS ONE God…
As man is ONE man.

God the Creator and Maker.
Man the Created, in His Likeness, His image.

Simplistically…
God Above All…(and men? Range what they believe)

God Fills many “Roles”…as does man

God has multiple Names “attached” to such Roles…as does man.

God “Serves” Himself…as does man.

God “purposes” IN Himself…so also does man.

Others “Serve” God…as “others” also serves man.

God reveals what Service unto Him, from an other, Delights Him, Angers Him… same applies to men.

The creation of man… is already Accomplished.

It is the making of each man that “continues”…
Be in Gods “likeness” ? Yes
Man Be Above “All” ? No.

Regarding…
* the “differences of the appearances of men”
* the “differences of the appearances of
animals”
* the “differences of the appearances of plants”
IMV…
…ALSO applies to there being “differences of the appearances of angels”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TrevorHL]

Isaiah 6 Discussion cont'd
Isaiah was commissioned to teach the following enigmatic message
Isaiah 6:9–10 (AV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Rather than teaching these words directly, the above indicates the effect of Isaiah's preaching. He would teach a positive and beneficial message, but often this message would not be received. Another theme that could be developed, that despite this negative assessment, Isaiah's preaching and ministry was successful, especially during the reign of Hezekiah.

Another important aspect of Isaiah 6:9-10 is the fact that these words are also applied to the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles. Each of these are quoted within the context. Each seem to be further steps in the hardening of the children of Israel. The first seems to be a step introduced by Jesus that changed his open ministry in Matthew chapters 5-7.
Matthew 13:10–16 (AV): 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

This next quotation is at the end of Jesus' ministry where many were turning against Jesus and not heeding his message. The concept is introduced that the Gospel would soon be offered to the Gentiles.
John 12:37–41 (AV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

This quotation is given where the Gospel is accepted by many Gentiles, while the Jews were mainly reticent.
Acts 28:23–29 (AV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Isaiah 6 Discussion cont'd
Another aspect to consider is whether Isaiah saw a vision of future things or a present reality. Even though Isaiah interacts with the vision and responds to the call by the Lord enthroned and then the Seraphim are active in cleansing him, I consider the vision of the Lord enthroned in the Temple is speaking of future things and is a vision of Jesus sitting upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem in the 1000 years of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Isaiah 6:1–4 (AV): 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

I consider this vision to be parallel with Isaiah 2 which also speaks of the future Temple, God's house.
Isaiah 2:1–4 (AV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

As such both visions speak of things to come and then the following verses in Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 6 speak about the circumstances leading up to these final visions.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Isaiah 6 Discussion cont'd

I have continued to label my posts as Isaiah 6 Discussion and I thought that some members would add additional detail or challenge some of the things that I have stated. Perhaps the following will be considered more obscure, but it is where my thoughts have ventured on this subject.

Earlier I stated that I consider that the Cherubim and Seraphim are symbolic Creatures. I also stated that the symbol of the Cherubim is more fully fulfilled in Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Servant of Yahweh. I suggest that Jesus is also the perfect Seraph and the following is some indication of this:
Numbers 21:8–9 (AV): 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.'

8314 שָׂרָף Seven occurrences; AV translates as “fiery serpent” three times, “fiery” twice, and “seraphim” twice. 1 serpent, fiery serpent. 1a poisonous serpent (fiery from burning effect of poison). 2 seraph, seraphim. 2a majestic beings with 6 wings, human hands or voices in attendance upon God. Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.

John 3:14–16 (AV): 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus also alludes to this in the following:
John 12:32–34 (AV): 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Isaiah 6 Discussion cont'd

Another obscure aspect of Isaiah 6 is the activity of the six wings. The following again is obscure, but again it is where my thoughts have ventured on this subject.

I consider that the Seraphim are symbolic of revealing the Divine character and ways. I also consider that the action of the wings is progressive. At first the Seraphim have an open face, then covered, then the feet are covered and then the Seraphim flies away completely.

As far as Isaiah was concerned the first phase was in the beginning of his ministry to Ahaz, but Ahaz rejected the preaching of Isaiah. We then move into the second phase where there was a process of separation, some became disciples, and with others the message and preaching of Isaiah became hidden to them.
Isaiah 8:13–18 (AV): 13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

The same sequence occurred with Jesus where the disciples were willing to hear and understand the Parable of the Sower, but the Scribes and Pharisees refused to hear and see:
Matthew 13:10–16 (AV): 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
And note Jesus quotes from Isaiah 6:9-10.

The above was at the early part of Jesus' ministry, but it appears that Jesus is alluding to the next two stages at the end of his ministry.
John 12:34–36 (AV): 34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Again Isaiah 6:9-10 is quoted, this time by John. The record hints at the fact with the visit of the Greeks that Jesus would depart and that the Jews would in general reject Jesus and the Gospel would spread to the Gentiles. Refer also Acts 28: 23-29.

Kind regards
Trevor