Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Spiritual Israelite]

It was my turn for the question. Answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

I asked my question in post #91 before you asked yours in post #95. You never answered the question I asked in post #91. All I'm asking, since you said "It has been going on since the apostate papacy" in relation to Satan's little season, is when did that begin?

 

[covenantee]

I asked my question in post #91 before you asked yours in post #95. You never answered the question I asked in post #91. All I'm asking, since you said "It has been going on since the apostate papacy" in relation to Satan's little season, is when did that begin?

Paul doesn't use the "little season" expression, so he didn't tell us when it would begin.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul doesn't use the "little season" expression, so he didn't tell us when it would begin.

He didn't have to use those exact words to refer to that time period. So, do you think 2 Thessalonians 2 is related to Satan's little season or not? I thought you indicated that you did.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So we have a claim of deification of a man. That's sin.

And we have the ascriptions of divine attributes belonging exclusively to the Father and the Son; to a man. The ascriptions are sins.

The man is responsible for what are described in verses 8 and 9. They are sins.

To me, these identify a man of sin.

My turn for the question.

What do they identify to you?

I'll assume that you'll answer my question about whether you think 2 Thessalonians 2 is related to Satan's little season or not, so I'll just go ahead and answer your question now. To me, the reference to "the man of sin" is a general reference to sinful mankind working their way amongst the church (the temple of God) during a particular period of time (Satan's little season) when lawlessness is no longer restrained. I see the reference to "the man of sin" as being a general reference similar to how "the man of God" in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 refers to godly people in general.

I'm curious to know what is your understanding of Satan's little season. Do you think deception, apostasy and lawlessness are significantly increased during that time?

 

[covenantee]

I'll assume that you'll answer my question about whether you think 2 Thessalonians 2 is related to Satan's little season or not, so I'll just go ahead and answer your question now. To me, the reference to "the man of sin" is a general reference to sinful mankind working their way amongst the church (the temple of God) during a particular period of time (Satan's little season) when lawlessness is no longer restrained. I see the reference to "the man of sin" as being a general reference similar to how "the man of God" in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 refers to godly people in general.

I'm curious to know what is your understanding of Satan's little season. Do you think deception, apostasy and lawlessness are significantly increased during that time?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

I've already pointed out how those claims evince the deception, apostasy and lawlessness specifically of the apostate pope/papacy, which are whom and what they are describing.

But you believe that they are merely "a general reference to sinful mankind".

Explain how each of the three is "a general reference to sinful mankind".

 

[covenantee]

I'll assume that you'll answer my question about whether you think 2 Thessalonians 2 is related to Satan's little season or not, so I'll just go ahead and answer your question now. To me, the reference to "the man of sin" is a general reference to sinful mankind working their way amongst the church (the temple of God) during a particular period of time (Satan's little season) when lawlessness is no longer restrained. I see the reference to "the man of sin" as being a general reference similar to how "the man of God" in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 refers to godly people in general.

I'm curious to know what is your understanding of Satan's little season. Do you think deception, apostasy and lawlessness are significantly increased during that time?

FYI bro, the Reformers didn't burn at the stake protesting "a general reference to sinful mankind".

They burned protesting the deception, apostasy and lawlessness of the man of sin exalting himself, sitting physically in Rome but spiritually in the Church.

Showing himself to be God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

I've already pointed out how those claims evince the deception, apostasy and lawlessness specifically of the apostate pope/papacy, which are whom and what they are describing.

But you believe that they are merely "a general reference to sinful mankind".

Explain how each of the three is "a general reference to sinful mankind".

I wasn't saying that in regard to those quotes, but in regard to how I interpret the passage. It's time to just agree to disagree. Nothing else to add at this point, unless you'd like to explain your understanding of Satan's little season to me in terms of what you think things are like during that time. Seems like you're not interested in discussing that, though.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

FYI bro, the Reformers didn't burn at the stake protesting "a general reference to sinful mankind".

Yeah, no kidding. But, so what? Where does 2 Thessalonians 2 say anything about the man of sin killing believers for protesting against him?

 

[covenantee]

Yeah, no kidding. But, so what? Where does 2 Thessalonians 2 say anything about the man of sin killing believers for protesting against him?

So because it's not in 2 Thessalonians 2, therefore the Reformers never actually burned?

 

[covenantee]

I wasn't saying that in regard to those quotes, but in regard to how I interpret the passage. It's time to just agree to disagree. Nothing else to add at this point, unless you'd like to explain your understanding of Satan's little season to me in terms of what you think things are like during that time. Seems like you're not interested in discussing that, though.

If the plethora of evidence identifying the man of sin is still insufficient for you, there's no value for me in attempting to identify the "little season".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So because it's not in 2 Thessalonians 2, therefore the Reformers never actually burned?

Is that what I said or implied? Obviously not. So, why make a ridiculous comment like this? What purpose does it serve? This discussion has obviously reached its end at this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the plethora of evidence identifying the man of sin is still insufficient for you, there's no value for me in attempting to identify the "little season".

Translation: You have no interest in considering any other view than the one your heroes held. The same people who you know were very wrong about other things.

Somehow, in your mind, a reference to the unrestrained "working of Satan" can't possibly relate to the loosing of Satan during his little season. It's hard for me to understand how any Amillennialist who believes that Satan's little season precedes the return of Christ would not at least give that view some consideration.

 

[covenantee]

Translation: You have no interest in considering any other view than the one your heroes held. The same people who you know were very wrong about other things.

I'll take the faith, vision, and sacrifice of the Reformers over your rejections and denials.

Every time.

 

[covenantee]

Is that what I said or implied? Obviously not. So, why make a ridiculous comment like this? What purpose does it serve? This discussion has obviously reached its end at this point.

I responded with my ridiculous comment to your ridiculous comment.

That's how ridiculous comments work.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll take the faith, vision, and sacrifice of the Reformers over your rejections and denials.

Every time.

LOL. But, you won't take the false doctrines that many of them taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I responded with my ridiculous comment to your ridiculous comment.

That's how ridiculous comments work.

No, your ridiculous comment misrepresented what I said. I did not misrepresent what you said. But, go ahead and act like a child if you insist. You should be better than that.

 

[covenantee]

No, your ridiculous comment misrepresented what I said. I did not misrepresent what you said. But, go ahead and act like a child if you insist. You should be better than that.

You need your head screwed back on, straight this time.

William Tyndale was a Reformer responsible for a number of English translations of Scripture. They are recognized to this day.

He was martyred.

But he was a premil.

So none of his contributions are of any merit.

Right?

 

[Davidpt]

He didn't have to use those exact words to refer to that time period. So, do you think 2 Thessalonians 2 is related to Satan's little season or not? I thought you indicated that you did.

Amils often interpret Revelation 20:8 as referring to all the unsaved nations being deceived after the millennium, and they appeal to 2 Thessalonians 2 to support this. But 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is explicitly about apostates---those who fall away from something they were previously part of. You cannot fall away if you were never saved to begin with. God does not need to send the already lost into strong delusion---they are already condemned. If Revelation 20:8 were only about the unsaved in general, the connection to 2 Thess 2:3 collapses entirely. The most coherent reading is that Revelation 20:8 depicts apostates, not the already lost, because only they require deception to rebel against God.

The point being, if Amil is going to work, that's the only way I can see it working. Except Amils don't want to entertain that apostates are meant in Revelation 20:8, not all the unsaved in general, if Amils are using 2 Thess 2 to support satan's little season. Nowhere in all of 2 Thess 2 are all the lost in general in view. As if it makes sense, for instance, atheists. That God needs to send atheists strong delusion, so that they should believe a lie, that they should be more lost than they already are. Because if God does not send them strong delusion this might mean they are simply not lost enough. So let's just do an over kill, so speak. Really makes sense. Right?


I will admit this. What I just proposed makes far better sense than Premil except Amils, such as yourself, don't even want to entertain it. You want Rev 20:8 to be meaning all the lost in general who would already be deceived during the millennium to begin with. Which then equals an over kill, thus equals nonsense, that satan needs to deceive someone after the millennium that are already deceived during the millennium. Rather than deceive someone after the millennium that were no longer deceived during the millennium.

Thus, per this scenario, they are among the saved during the millennium, then fall away after the millennium. Hmmm...maybe I should switch to Amil since this view could obviously use a little refining of things. This view possibly has the right idea but has the wrong ones meant in regard to verse 8, being the biggest issue.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need your head screwed back on, straight this time.

That looks like something an immature little child would say.

William Tyndale was a Reformer responsible for a number of English translations of Scripture. They are recognized to this day.

He was martyred.

But he was a premil.

So none of his contributions are of any merit.

Right?

Is that what I said? Not at all! I'm amazed at how terrible your reading comprehension skills are in this thread. I'm not saying that none of them were ever right about anything. I'm saying they were very wrong about some things, so I think it's foolish to just assume that they had to be right about this topic.

 

[covenantee]

That looks like something an immature little child would say.


Is that what I said? Not at all! I'm amazed at how terrible your reading comprehension skills are in this thread. I'm not saying that none of them were ever right about anything. I'm saying they were very wrong about some things, so I think it's foolish to just assume that they had to be right about this topic.

There's the witness of Scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2, Daniel 7, et al; and the witness of the man of sin himself, which you refuse to believe.

There's nothing whatever to "assume" about this.