Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Marvelloustime]

What i say to one i say to all my dear friend .
And yet many , even now ,within christendom and the false religoins
are all merging as one under what they BELEIVE is of GOD , IS HIS LOVE , and shall bring world peace n safety unto this world
and the middle east .
But what did paul say would come upon them all as they were hollering peace n safety .
Was it , A , they get peace n safety , or B , SUDDEN DESTRUCTION .
OH the hour is indeed late and later than many would dare to even know .
JESUS did NOT come to Bring peace upon earth . But rather divisions .
But this group beleives now THIS BE THE PLAN OF GOD HIMSELF .
Feel free to correct me , BUT the last time i checked SOMEONE of SOMETHING else DOES come to offer up peace
and yet BY PEACE destroys many . That spirit , that one , is not one that should have been called GOD
but it is . F or they beleive this to be THE WILL OF GOD . rather odd
IF this were the plan of GOD , for peace n safety , THEN WHY WAS THE DIRE NECESSITY TO BELEIVE ON CHRIST
REMOVED . bingo .
And there shall be NO PEACE unto the wicked . Sounds like a delusion , a set up , a snare
to gather all who rejected the love of the truth to belive THE LIE and to be damned .
For its prophets cry , LET US GO UP to the tab le of interfaith , WHICH CLEARLY DENIED JESUS ,
and we shall have the victory , we shall have peace . King ahab thought similiar too .
WHEN ALL his false prophets as one cried to him , GO YE UP for ye shall have the victory .
But ol king ahad should have heeded MICAH
Rather than the LYING spirit sent to his prophets who misled him into beleiving HE would attain the vicotry
WHEN REALLY IT WAS HIS OWN DESTRUCTION .
Same too today . ITS all a delusion my friend and the prophets cry , GO YE UP , let us be one peoples
let us find common ground with the religoins , we all serve the same GOD , JESUS HAS BEEN DENIED .
OH but they THINK and believe they shall attain peace n safety . NOPE SUDDEN D ESTRUcTION and they will not escape .
ITS ALL A Snare .

@amigo de christo

 

[Ronald D Milam]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

If you guys understood why God said here a little, there a little, this stuff would not confound and confuse you, instead of using the big picture approach you use single pieces, get an understanding, then SEARCH LIKE CRAZY to try and prove you are correct.

The DOTL (God's Wrath lasts 1260 days and STARTS with the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact (Trumps 1-4 are one event as spotlighted in 4 phases). You get hung up on simple words, like AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which you assume wrong, it means after the full allotment of time (1260 days) God allows his wrath to run, but that is not how God gave it unto us, or what it means, He is saying immediately after the tribulation BEGINS !! Why is this so hard to grasp? It does not say after it BEGINS nor after it ENDS, but you assume one over the other, I look at the facts to determine what it means (here a little there a little). And guess what, after the Sun and Moon goes Dark in Trump #4 we see Woe #1 that lasts for 5 long months, then we have Woe #2 and Woe #3 to follow, so common sense tells us Jesus was saying IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TROUBLES of Jacob/Tribulation/Wrath starts the Sun and Moon will go dark, because when 1/3 of the worlds trees burn that is what will happen, that is tons of smoke in the air.

Of course the darkness can not precede the fires of tribulation, but it is a PART of God wrath, see Trump #4 the Sun and Moon go DARK. This 4th Trump fulfills the 6th Seal Prophesy, the Seals are not Judgments, but rather Prophetic Utterances by Jesus just before the Wrath falls. It sim ply means the DOLT brings all of this, the fires, the darkness etc. etc. etc. And THEN 1260 days after verse 29, in vs. 30 Jesus will show up with us the Church riding on White Horses (a metaphor for conquerors) with him.

 

[Davidpt]

If you guys understood why God said here a little, there a little, this stuff would not confound and confuse you, instead of using the big picture approach you use single pieces, get an understanding, then SEARCH LIKE CRAZY to try and prove you are correct.

The DOTL (God's Wrath lasts 1260 days and STARTS with the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact (Trumps 1-4 are one event as spotlighted in 4 phases). You get hung up on simple words, like AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which you assume wrong, it means after the full allotment of time (1260 days) God allows his wrath to run, but that is not how God gave it unto us, or what it means, He is saying immediately after the tribulation BEGINS !! Why is this so hard to grasp? It does not say after it BEGINS nor after it ENDS, but you assume one over the other, I look at the facts to determine what it means (here a little there a little). And guess what, after the Sun and Moon goes Dark in Trump #4 we see Woe #1 that lasts for 5 long months, then we have Woe #2 and Woe #3 to follow, so common sense tells us Jesus was saying IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TROUBLES of Jacob/Tribulation/Wrath starts the Sun and Moon will go dark, because when 1/3 of the worlds trees burn that is what will happen, that is tons of smoke in the air.

Of course the darkness can not precede the fires of tribulation, but it is a PART of God wrath, see Trump #4 the Sun and Moon go DARK. This 4th Trump fulfills the 6th Seal Prophesy, the Seals are not Judgments, but rather Prophetic Utterances by Jesus just before the Wrath falls. It sim ply means the DOLT brings all of this, the fires, the darkness etc. etc. etc. And THEN 1260 days after verse 29, in vs. 30 Jesus will show up with us the Church riding on White Horses (a metaphor for conquerors) with him.

It's hard to follow your view here, at least for me anyway. Are you basically saying that the 42 month reign is during/after verse 29 rather than during verses 15-26? After all, if you have any of the trumpets meaning during/after verse 29 , this means so must the 6th trumpet be during/after verse 29. And clearly, the 6th trumpet involves not only the 1260 days the 2Ws prophesy, it also involves the 42 month reign of the beast. But then you argue that verse 29 is meaning at the beginning of tribulation rather than after. If you can't make sense of my view, I guess that makes us even, because I certainly can't make sense of your view. At least not at this point.

 

[MonoBiblical]

I believe there was a post-tribulation rapture before 70 AD.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It's hard to follow your view here, at least for me anyway. Are you basically saying that the 42 month reign is during/after verse 29 rather than during verses 15-26? After all, if you have any of the trumpets meaning during/after verse 29 , this means so must the 6th trumpet be during/after verse 29. And clearly, the 6th trumpet involves not only the 1260 days the 2Ws prophesy, it also involves the 42 month reign of the beast. But then you argue that verse 29 is meaning at the beginning of tribulation rather than after. If you can't make sense of my view, I guess that makes us even, because I certainly can't make sense of your view. At least not at this point.

Like Gen. 1 is Creation, with Mankind and Gen. 2 is the Creation of only Mankind, the old style of writing was different from ours. The only way to show why its like this is to C&P and explain.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

{{ Here, we see Jesus talking about a time just before the Wrath of God (DOTL) falls, Israel at the 1290 has 30 days to flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area before the AC conquers them, because the AoD is the False Prophet, not the AC who has political sway over him (a Jewish High Priest) from afar. Ahead of time Jess says this man life will be cut short, meaning he's killed on day 1260 of his rule. }}

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

{{ Here, Jesus told his disciples about the end time Jews, he tells them about the AC & FP and that they will show great signs and wonders an "IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (Meaning it is not possible) that even The Elect (Jews) would be deceived. BUT he then explains why it is NOT POSSIBLE..........Behold. I have told you all this BEFORE HAND, (Where you Jews who repented in the end time CANNOT be deceived.) How so? He says IF they tell you he is in the desert, do not buy it, IF they tell you Jesus is in the Secret Chambers/Store Room, do not believe that fib. (Meaning he is about to tell them WHY it can not be true, and WHY he can only come from one place. He says I will come [ONLY FROM] from the Eastern Skies in vs. 27 below. }}

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

{{ This is why verses 15-21 are about the 30 day run up to the 1260, then Jesus talks about the Beast and False Prophet and tells them I will show up to kill him on day 1260 the 2nd coming, but do not by their lies, they want you to come out of the Petra/Bozrah region, so they can kill you, bit do not buy into their lies. For I will not be in any of those places. I will come from the EASTERN SKIES, so since I have told you all this BEFOREHAND they can not trick you into coming out of your protected zone. NOW Jesus shows how his coming will look and what to look for. He's DEMONSTRATING what he meant in verses 26-27.}}

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:(Satan is kicked out of Heaven, vis the powers being shaken. After the DOTL starts the Sun and Moon will be darkened.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven1260 days later) and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[MonoBiblical]

I believe there was a post-tribulation rapture before 70 AD.

It could have been mid-tribulation rather.

 

[marks]

If you are going to charge me with misreprenting Pretrib,

I said, overgeneralizing. This is what I wrote:

You should quit overgeneralizing the beliefs of others. Just like I told someone else moments ago, I've been in pre-trib circles for decades, and this is not "what pre-tribbers believe".

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you guys understood why God said here a little, there a little, this stuff would not confound and confuse you, instead of using the big picture approach you use single pieces, get an understanding, then SEARCH LIKE CRAZY to try and prove you are correct.

The DOTL (God's Wrath lasts 1260 days and STARTS with the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact (Trumps 1-4 are one event as spotlighted in 4 phases). You get hung up on simple words, like AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which you assume wrong, it means after the full allotment of time (1260 days) God allows his wrath to run, but that is not how God gave it unto us, or what it means, He is saying immediately after the tribulation BEGINS !! Why is this so hard to grasp? It does not say after it BEGINS nor after it ENDS, but you assume one over the other, I look at the facts to determine what it means (here a little there a little). And guess what, after the Sun and Moon goes Dark in Trump #4 we see Woe #1 that lasts for 5 long months, then we have Woe #2 and Woe #3 to follow, so common sense tells us Jesus was saying IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TROUBLES of Jacob/Tribulation/Wrath starts the Sun and Moon will go dark, because when 1/3 of the worlds trees burn that is what will happen, that is tons of smoke in the air.

Of course the darkness can not precede the fires of tribulation, but it is a PART of God wrath, see Trump #4 the Sun and Moon go DARK. This 4th Trump fulfills the 6th Seal Prophesy, the Seals are not Judgments, but rather Prophetic Utterances by Jesus just before the Wrath falls. It sim ply means the DOLT brings all of this, the fires, the darkness etc. etc. etc. And THEN 1260 days after verse 29, in vs. 30 Jesus will show up with us the Church riding on White Horses (a metaphor for conquerors) with him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe there was a post-tribulation rapture before 70 AD.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:

"Great tribulation" is indicated in Matthew 24:21.

The "rapture" is indicated in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12, 14:1.

The rapture begins at the midpoint of the final (70th) seven, see Daniel 9:24-27. The rapture occurs when Jesus descends to a cloud and catches up ("raptures") believers in the Middle East, to remove them from the battlefield.

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST: Don't be deceived.

A midpoint rapture is still... a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.

Any belief that Jesus comes to gather His Church from the earth prior... to the "great tribulation", is a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

All Satan's host have done with starting that midpoint rapture theory is just to push another way to fool the Biblically illiterate into accepting the FIRST supernatural Messiah that comes working great signs and miracles, and claiming to be The Christ.



In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus emphatically declared that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the "great tribulation".

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That "trumpet" is the "last trump" of Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

Not only did Jesus give that timing for after the tribulation, but He also revealed the gathering of 2 groups of saints, the asleep saints that had already died which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him from Heaven when He comes, and then the saints that will still be alive on earth. In this Matthew 24:31 example, He is pointing to the gathering of the asleep saints He brings with Him.

In the Mark 13:27 version, with "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven," He gathers the alive saints still on earth, as they will be "caught up" to Him in the air and joined with Him and the asleep saints, ON THEIR WAY TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES EAST OF JERUSALEM, ON EARTH (per Zechariah 14).


IF... this is the first time some of you have read this, then shouldn't you be asking yourself why... God is allowing doctrines of men that go totally against... what Lord Jesus said about His return after the tribulation? Yeah, you should be wondering, and it should make you a lot more careful as to who you decide to listen to. Stay in God's Word as written, and you'll know who to listen to.

 

[rebuilder 454]

"Great tribulation" is indicated in Matthew 24:21.

The "rapture" is indicated in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12, 14:1.

The rapture begins at the midpoint of the final (70th) seven, see Daniel 9:24-27.

The setting in your model is incorrect.
The church is raptured in a pretrib setting.
Your model has the opposite setting..

 

[William Barton]

"Day of the Lord" is a figure of speech referring to the events that will occur during this time.

The setting in your model is incorrect.
The church is raptured in a pretrib setting.
Your model has the opposite setting..

IMO the rapture is indicated in the following verses:

o. Revelation 11:12
o. Revelation 14:16
o. John 14:2-3
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17

This is at the midpoint of the tribulation, when the two witnesses are caught up, i.e. raptured (Revelation 11:12).

This is pre-tribulation, i.e. before the *great* tribulation begins (Matthew 24:21).

 

[William Barton]

"Day of the Lord" is a figure of speech referring to the events that will occur during this time.

The setting in your model is incorrect.
The church is raptured in a pretrib setting.
Your model has the opposite setting..

The church has always suffered tribulation (John 16-33). My model is pre-great-tribulation (Matthew 24-21).

The Bible says, "The Lord will come suddenly to his temple" (Malachi 3:1). No temple, no return of Jesus.

The Romans destroyed the temple in 70 A.D., but it will be rebuilt.

 

[Davy]

One of the simple parables or analogies God's Word uses about being deceived at the end of this world by falling away to the first supernatural Messiah that shows up on earth, is from the Isaiah 54 metaphor about the barren woman who's womb remained barren, which means stayed a virgin.

Lord Jesus was all over this analogy about His servants being metaphorically like spiritual virgins waiting on Him to come. Apostle Paul covered the idea also...

2 Cor 11:1-4
11 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV

What an analogy does in teaching is that it anchors in the Message intended so that it shows only one meaning or interpretation. God's Word actually uses it a lot, especially by Lord Jesus in His parables in the New Testament.

Here is another version of that barren woman analogy that Paul used from Isaiah 54, but this time, Lord Jesus is using it about the deceived Jews in Jerusalem for the end of this world...

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

Lord Jesus was on His way to be crucified. And those Jews wept for Him as He went.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'."
KJV

Those deceived Jews in Jerusalem Jesus shows will say that above when they see His coming. They will wish for the mountains to, "Fall on us", and for the hills to, "Cover us." Why will they say that when they see Jesus Christ coming?

It will be because those deceived did not remain as 'chaste virgins' waiting on Lord Jesus to come. Some cannot handle the idea it is pointing to, but it is pointing to spiritual adultery with another instead of Jesus Christ. And when Jesus does... show up, He finds the deceived spiritual harlot "with child" from another.

That analogy we all should be familiar with in this life, meaning literally husbands and or wives that go on a journey to return and find their spouse has played around and either got pregnant with child, or caused another to get pregnant with child. It only has one meaning, so Lord Jesus' Message is anchored in the analogy.

Many Churches today are not warning about the coming false-Messiah that will play Lord Jesus, and deceive many. I don't know if they think the subject is too difficult to teach (it's not), or it just does not fit the status quo of what the congregation wants to hear, or whatever. But Lord Jesus and His Apostles made it a very important matter.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe it all came to pass, but I could be wrong. I have no means in changing my mind currently.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I believe it all came to pass, but I could be wrong. I have no means in changing my mind currently.

Do you believe the timing of the Rapture affects the way you are justified/saved today ?

 

[MatthewG]

Do you believe the timing of the Rapture affects the way you are justified/saved today ?

I believe if a person wants to go with God will have faith in him.

There is only faithful and faithless people out there.

Everyone has been saved from sin, death, satan, hell --

There are 2 destinations inside the Kingdom or outside.

I hope that helps you see my view.

I dont even think about the rapture other than in content of those people at that time and day.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is only faithful and faithless people out there.

Sure, those in Christ and those not, those born again of the Spirit and those not, believers and unbelievers, elect of God and not... yeah. And with regard to faith, those with true faith, which, by definition, is God's assurance of things hoped for given to us, and conviction in us by the Holy Spirit, Who is the one Who convicts, of things not seen... so those with true, salvific faith as opposed to those with the kind of dead faith that James speaks of in chapter 2 of his epistle.

Everyone has been saved from sin, death, satan, hell --

Then why is there a Satan or a hell? Matthew, if no one is or ever will be there, which would be the case if everyone were saved? Why would Jesus even speak of it, much less say, in Matthew 25 and John 5 in particular, that some would be resurrected to it and after the final Judgment would depart to it?

There are 2 destinations inside the Kingdom or outside.

But you literally just said there is no "outside." <smile>

I hope that helps you see my view.

Um... well... yeah... <smile>

I dont even think about the rapture other than in content of those people at that time and day.

Well now this is good, because there is no "rapture," either in the past or in the future. <smile> Unless you want to look at those who will be on the wrong side (the left) in the final Judgment... Those will be... "raptured," in a sense, but certainly not a good one. <smile> And all this talk about a future tribulation is also... misguided, and misguiding... Jesus did say to His disciples, and all of us by extension, "I have said these things to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33)

Grace and peace to you, Matthew.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you believe the timing of the Rapture affects the way you are justified/saved today ?

An interesting question... Or if there even is a "Rapture" at all, right Peter? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.