What exactly is ''resting'' on the Sabbath as to keeping it 'Holy'?

[LawofLove]

@LawofLove,
In Hebrews 4, I think the key issue is how we understand the nature of the “rest” being described. I agree the passage draws on the seventh day from Genesis, and I agree that God’s rest is real and meaningful. Where we differ is whether Hebrews 4 is re-establishing seventh-day observance as a covenant command for Gentile believers.

The passage itself moves between several layers of meaning:

God’s rest after creation (Gen. 2)
Israel’s failure to enter rest in the wilderness (Psalm 95)
Joshua not ultimately giving final rest
And then Christ as the fulfillment of that promised rest

That movement is important. Hebrews 4 is not simply repeating Exodus 20 as a command; it is building a theological argument about entering God’s rest through faith in Christ.

Even the term “sabbatismos” does not automatically settle the question. A word meaning “Sabbath-rest” still has to be interpreted in context. The question is whether the author is commanding calendar observance or using Sabbath language to describe a deeper reality fulfilled in Christ.

Verse 10 is often central in this discussion. It says the one who enters God’s rest ceases from works as God did from His. But the text does not explicitly say, "Therefore, keep the seventh day.” It draws a comparison between God’s rest and the believer’s rest in Christ. The emphasis throughout Hebrews is consistently Christological: He is the better priest, better sacrifice, better covenant, and the one who brings believers into final rest.

I don’t see Hebrews 4 isolating one day of the week as a binding covenant requirement for Gentile believers. I see it presenting the Sabbath pattern as a shadow that points to something greater and more complete in Christ.

On your broader point, I agree that God desires His people to rest, worship, and set time apart for Him. The disagreement is not about whether rest matters but whether the New Testament explicitly binds the seventh day upon all nations under Christ in the same covenantal way as Israel under Sinai.

And that is still the question I do not see directly answered with an explicit apostolic command.

So my position remains:

Hebrews 4 affirms God’s rest and uses Sabbath imagery powerfully, but it does not clearly reimpose seventh-day observance as a covenant obligation on Gentile believers under the new covenant.

Why not go with the way God defined? Do you really think the writer of Hebrews was in rebellion to God? Who has more authority to change something that God personally wrote- His Testimony Exo31:18 and and claimed as His Exo20:6 and then said no editing because He would not. Deut 4:2 Pro30:5-6 Ecc3:14 Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19

The Sabbath rest is according to the commandment of God

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Which is reinforced in Hebrews 4

“For He (God) has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”” — Hebrews 4:4 (NKJV)

Which is quoting the 4th commandment

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying

““Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
Six days you shall labor and do all your work
but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it” — Exodus 20:8–11 (NKJV)

Why back to Hebrews those who enter Christ rest ALSO rest from their works as God did on the seventh day Heb4:4 Heb4:11 why the Sabbath- rest which God defined remains for God's people. We do not get to redefine what God did. What He does is forever Ecc3:14 and we should fear before Him, not alter His words He said not to.

I truly do not know how much clearer these passages can be. Sadly most never look at the references being quoted they just apply them however they want. The Bible tells us everything if we are looking for God's Truth. Sadly, not everyone wants it.

The apostles made everything according to Christ. If we follow this same principle, there would be a lot less confusion around the word of God. The apostles made Christ first, they followed in His example, not changed the law of God and became what God warned about Dan7:25. Paul is hard to understand and there is a salvation warning about it 2Peter3:16 if we keep our eyes on Christ and follow how He tells us to live- by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God quoting OT Mat4:4 God will be our center, not man. God is the same in the OT as He is in the NT- Jesus is God- Jesus is the GREAT I AM John8:58 He said so plainly He did not come to destroy His own laws, but magnify them Mat5:17-30 Isa 42:21

 

[LawofLove]

@LawofLove, “Can you point me to a clear New Testament command where the apostles require Gentile believers in Christ to keep the seventh-day Sabbath as a covenant obligation?”

The NT did not delete the OT as many teach. Its what Jesus and the apotles were quoting and living by and what we are told to use

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Like I showed you before once God deems something as doing righteousness- it stays that way.

This is the words of the LORD:

The covenant was made to Israel- but the LORD invited Gentiles- the covenant that has God's laws written in our hearts and minds, the covenant that includes the Sabbath for the people of God, the covenant that God remembers our sins no more.

Isa 56:6 “Thus says the LORD: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed
Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil.

6. ““Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles) Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant

Gentiles are part of God's covenant Everyone who loves the name of the LORD and are His servants, EVERYONE who keeps the Sabbath and holds fast My covenant. Read these words of our LORD slowly- He is telling us what we need to know- He said everyone He means just that.

“My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” — Psalms 89:34 (NKJV)

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people
None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”” — Hebrews 8:10–12 (NKJV)

Sadly many are not in a covenant with God and don't even realize it because they reject the terms- the law of God.

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God” — Romans 8:7–8 (NKJV)

Did Jesus ever teach another different?

He taught how to keep the Sabbath- its lawful to do good, not evil (profaning it Isa56:2 Neh13:17)

“Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent” — Mark 3:4 (NKJV)

And told everyone not to break the least of God's commandments

“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” — Matthew 5:19 (NKJV)

This whole idea that God is confused on His holy day or the day He asked us to keep holy that we needed to correct Him or is confused on His own laws that He wrote and spoke that we need to edit one of these is not a doctrine coming from God. God tells us plainly in His own words. If we trust Him with 9 of His Ten Commandments why not trust Him with all of them. The one He said Remember, the one He Blessed and made for holy use to spend time with us. Why not just do what He asks because we love and trust Him over teachings and traditions of man.

 

[Angelina]

Why not go with the way God defined? Do you really think the writer of Hebrews was in rebellion to God? Who has more authority to change something that God personally wrote- His Testimony Exo31:18 and and claimed as His Exo20:6 and then said no editing because He would not. Deut 4:2 Pro30:5-6 Ecc3:14 Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19

The Sabbath rest is according to the commandment of God

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Which is reinforced in Hebrews 4

“For He (God) has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”” — Hebrews 4:4 (NKJV)

Which is quoting the 4ht commandment

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying

““Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
Six days you shall labor and do all your work
but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it” — Exodus 20:8–11 (NKJV)

Why back to Hebrews those who enter Christ rest ALSO rest from their works as God did on the seventh day Heb4:4 Heb4:11 why the Sabbath- rest which God defined remains for God's people. We do not get to redefine what God did. What He does is forever Ecc3:1f4 and we should fear before Him, not alter His words He said not to.

I truly do not know how much clearer these passages can be. Sadly most never look at the references being quoted they just apply them however they want. The Bible tells us everything if we are looking for God's Truth. Sadly, not everyone wants it.

The apostles made everything according to Christ. If we follow this same principle, there would be a lot less confusion around the word of God. The apostles made Christ first, they followed in His example, not changed the law of God and became what God warned about Dan7:25. Paul is hard to understand and there is a salvation warning about it 2Peter3:16 if we keep our eyes on Christ and follow how He tells us to live- by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God quoting OT Mat4:4 God will be our center, not man. God is the same in the OT as He is in the NT- Jesus is God- Jesus is the GREAT I AM John8:58 He said so plainly He did not come to destroy His own laws, but magnify them Mat5:17-30 Isa 42:21

@LawofLove,
I hear the concern you are raising, that God does not change and therefore what He declared holy remains holy. I agree with that foundation: God’s character, righteousness, and truth do not change.

Where I think "we are still interpreting the text differently" is not about whether God is faithful but about "how God administers His covenant across redemptive history."

When we look at Scripture as a whole, we actually see things God Himself instituted being re-expressed through Christ not as "rebellion" but as fulfillment. For example:

1. The Passover is not abolished but fulfilled in Christ as the Lamb of God.
2. Circumcision is not called rebellion when redefined in the heart (Rom. 2, Gal. 5).
3. The temple system is not called rebellion when fulfilled in Christ as the true temple (John 2).

So the New Testament pattern is not simply “nothing changes,” but rather “what God established is fulfilled and re-centered in Christ.”

That is why I do not think Hebrews is treating God’s word as being altered or resisted. I think it is interpreting God’s own redemptive plan through its intended fulfillment in Christ, which the New Testament consistently does with other covenant signs as well.

In Hebrews 4 specifically, I agree it draws directly from Genesis and Exodus, and I agree the seventh day is part of the pattern being referenced. Where I still do not see agreement is the step from that observation to a covenant command requiring Gentile believers to observe the seventh day.

The text describes God’s rest, connects it to Israel’s history, and then culminates in entering rest through faith in Christ. But it does not explicitly command Sabbath observance for Gentile believers, nor does it restate Exodus 20 as a binding covenant requirement on the churches.

That distinction matters for me, because the New Testament does make clear when Gentiles are placed under specific covenant obligations (as in Acts 15), and it is very careful in what it requires of them.

So my position is not that God’s word has changed, but that God’s promises are fulfilled and re-expressed in Christ and that the New Testament itself shows which aspects are carried forward as binding covenant requirements and which are fulfilled in Him.

That is where I think our interpretations diverge most clearly.

 

[Angelina]

The NT did not delete the OT as many teach. Its what Jesus and the apotles were quoting and living by and what we are told to use

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Like I showed you before once God deems something as doing righteousness- it stays that way.

This is the words of the LORD:

The covenant was made to Israel- but the LORD invited Gentiles- the covenant that has God's laws written in our hearts and minds, the covenant that includes the Sabbath for the people of God, the covenant that God remembers our sins no more.

Isa 56:6 “Thus says the LORD: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed
Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil.

6. ““Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles) Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant

Gentiles are part of God's covenant Everyone who loves the name of the LORD and are His servants, EVERYONE who keeps the Sabbath and holds fast My covenant. Read these words of our LORD slowly- He is telling us what we need to know- He said everyone He means just that.

“My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” — Psalms 89:34 (NKJV)

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people
None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”” — Hebrews 8:10–12 (NKJV)

Sadly many are not in a covenant with God and don't even realize it because they reject the terms- the law of God.

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God” — Romans 8:7–8 (NKJV)

Did Jesus ever teach another different?

He taught how to keep the Sabbath- its lawful to do good, not evil (profaning it Isa56:2 Neh13:17)

“Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent” — Mark 3:4 (NKJV)

And told everyone not to break the least of God's commandments

“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” — Matthew 5:19 (NKJV)

This whole idea that God is confused on His holy day or the day He asked us to keep holy that we needed to correct Him or is confused on His own laws that He wrote and spoke that we need to edit one of these is not a doctrine coming from God. God tells us plainly in His own words. If we trust Him with 9 of His Ten Commandments why not trust Him with all of them. The one He said Remember, the one He Blessed and made for holy use to spend time with us. Why not just do what He asks because we love and trust Him over teachings and traditions of man.

@LawofLove,
I want to be clear that I am not arguing that the Old Testament is deleted, or that God’s Word is confused, or that His righteousness changes. I fully agree that all Scripture is inspired and that God’s character does not change.

The question I am trying to keep focused is more specific than that:

What does the New Testament explicitly require of Gentile believers in Christ as a covenant obligation?

I agree that the Old Testament reveals God’s holiness and moral truth. I also agree that Jesus and the apostles consistently quoted and fulfilled the Scriptures. Where I think we are interpreting differently is how covenant obligation is carried forward under Christ.

For example, the New Testament clearly shows that some commands given by God in the Old Testament are fulfilled and no longer binding in the same covenantal form under the new covenant:

1. sacrifices were commanded by God
2. circumcision was commanded by God
3. temple ordinances were commanded by God

Yet the apostles do not treat believers as being in rebellion when these are no longer practiced in their original covenant form because they are fulfilled in Christ.

So the question is not whether something was ever commanded by God in Scripture but whether it is restated as a binding covenant requirement under Christ for Gentile believers.

On the passages you quoted (Isaiah 56, Exodus 20, Matthew 5), I do agree they show the Sabbath is holy and meaningful in God’s order. My disagreement is with the step from that to saying Gentile believers are placed under the Sinai covenant Sabbath requirement in the same binding way under the new covenant.

That is the point I still do not see explicitly established in the New Testament apostolic instructions to the churches.

So I am not trying to remove Scripture, but to distinguish between the following:

What God revealed in the Old Covenant and what the apostles explicitly required of Gentile believers in Christ.

 

[LawofLove]

@LawofLove,
I hear the concern you are raising, that God does not change and therefore what He declared holy remains holy. I agree with that foundation: God’s character, righteousness, and truth do not change.

Where I think "we are still interpreting the text differently" is not about whether God is faithful but about "how God administers His covenant across redemptive history."

When we look at Scripture as a whole, we actually see things God Himself instituted being re-expressed through Christ not as "rebellion" but as fulfillment. For example:

1. The Passover is not abolished but fulfilled in Christ as the Lamb of God.
2. Circumcision is not called rebellion when redefined in the heart (Rom. 2, Gal. 5).
3. The temple system is not called rebellion when fulfilled in Christ as the true temple (John 2).

So the New Testament pattern is not simply “nothing changes,” but rather “what God established is fulfilled and re-centered in Christ.”

That is why I do not think Hebrews is treating God’s word as being altered or resisted. I think it is interpreting God’s own redemptive plan through its intended fulfillment in Christ, which the New Testament consistently does with other covenant signs as well.

In Hebrews 4 specifically, I agree it draws directly from Genesis and Exodus, and I agree the seventh day is part of the pattern being referenced. Where I still do not see agreement is the step from that observation to a covenant command requiring Gentile believers to observe the seventh day.

The text describes God’s rest, connects it to Israel’s history, and then culminates in entering rest through faith in Christ. But it does not explicitly command Sabbath observance for Gentile believers, nor does it restate Exodus 20 as a binding covenant requirement on the churches.

That distinction matters for me, because the New Testament does make clear when Gentiles are placed under specific covenant obligations (as in Acts 15), and it is very careful in what it requires of them.

So my position is not that God’s word has changed, but that God’s promises are fulfilled and re-expressed in Christ and that the New Testament itself shows which aspects are carried forward as binding covenant requirements and which are fulfilled in Him.

That is where I think our interpretations diverge most clearly.

I never said nothing changes but what you mentioned all came after sin, it was a cure to get us back to Christ and the Bible goes in great detail which I can show you if you want about Passover and circumcision all written by Moses in the law of Moses.


The weekly Sabbath started before sin at Creation Exo20:11 made for mankind Mark2:27 and later was codified by God in His Testimony- He said this would not change. There will never be a time when we can worship other God's or steal. God placed by design the 4th commandment in with these other commandments. The 4th commandment is the commandment God choose to place His signature - its the commandment that tells us which God we are to worship as there are many gods in this world but only one that can make heaven and earth. No wonder why God said Remember and no wonder why the devil has bee attacking this commandment from the beginning.

 

[Angelina]

I never said nothing changes but what you mentioned all came after sin, it was a cure to get us back to Christ and the Bible goes in great detail which I can show you if you want about Passover and circumcision all written by Moses in the law of Moses.


The weekly Sabbath started before sin at Creation Exo20:11 made for mankind Mark2:27 and later was codified by God in His Testimony- He said this would not change. There will never be a time when we can worship other God's or steal. God placed by design the 4th commandment in with these other commandments. The 4th commandment is the commandment God choose to place His signature - its the commandment that tells us which God we are to worship as there are many gods in this world but only one that can make heaven and earth. No wonder why God said Remember and no wonder why the devil has bee attacking this commandment from the beginning.

@LawofLove,
I understand your point that the Sabbath is connected to creation and not only to Sinai, and I agree that Genesis presents God’s rest as part of the created order before sin.

Where I think we still differ is not about whether Sabbath appears in creation but about what that means covenantally for Gentile believers in Christ.

In Scripture, there are things that are grounded in creation that are still later taken up, clarified, or redefined within covenant contexts. Marriage is a good example of something rooted in creation, yet still expressed differently across covenants and fulfilled in the teachings of Christ and the apostles.

So I do not see “creation origin” and “eternal covenant obligation in the same form” as automatically identical categories.

That is why I keep coming back to the New Testament apostolic instructions to the churches. When the early church explicitly addressed what was required of Gentile believers (Acts 15), they were very specific in what they bound and what they did not bind. That remains important for me because it shows how the apostles themselves applied continuity and fulfillment in practice.

In Colossians 2 and Romans 14, I also see the New Testament allowing freedom regarding days while still calling believers to holiness, worship, and obedience to God.

So my position is still this:

I agree the Sabbath is meaningful in creation and in God’s revelation, but I do not see a clear apostolic command that re-binds seventh-day observance upon Gentile believers as a covenant requirement under Christ.

That is the point I have not yet seen directly established from the New Testament instructions given to the churches.

 

[Angelina]

Where did God mention circumcision or sacrifices in the verses I quoted? These were never part of the covenant Exo34:28 they were the prescription for sin until the Seed as we see plainly in our Bibles Eph 2, Col2 Heb10


The Sabbath was part of God's covenant. Why God mentioned the Sabbath for everyone. Isa56:6

I understand the way you are framing the issue, and I agree this is really where the disagreement becomes clear.

I also agree that the New Testament does not always restate Old Testament commands in a “re-listing” format. The apostles often assume continuity while also reinterpreting practices through Christ. So I don’t think the absence of a repeated command in identical wording is automatically the deciding factor on its own.

That is why I keep returning not only to isolated commands but also to how the apostles actually applied covenant obligation to Gentile believers in practice.

In Acts 15, the question was not simply theological but covenantal: what is required of Gentiles who are now in Christ? The council’s response is significant because it is explicit in what it does and does not place upon them. My point is not that Acts 15 mentions every aspect of Christian life, but that it shows how the apostles handled the question of binding covenant requirements for Gentiles.

In Romans 14 and Colossians 2, I agree there is freedom of conscience regarding days in the life of the church, while still calling believers to holiness and devotion to God. Where we differ is whether Sabbath observance is included in that category of liberty or in the category of continuing covenant obligation.

So I would summarize my position more precisely:

I am not arguing that God’s law is irrelevant or that Scripture must explicitly “re-list” every command for it to matter.

I am saying I do not yet see, from the apostolic instruction to Gentile believers in Christ, a clear and direct binding of seventh-day Sabbath observance as a covenant requirement under the new covenant.

That is still the point I am trying to understand from the New Testament itself.

 

[LawofLove]

@LawofLove,
I understand your point that the Sabbath is connected to creation and not only to Sinai, and I agree that Genesis presents God’s rest as part of the created order before sin.

Where I think we still differ is not about whether Sabbath appears in creation but about what that means covenantally for Gentile believers in Christ.

In Scripture, there are things that are grounded in creation that are still later taken up, clarified, or redefined within covenant contexts. Marriage is a good example of something rooted in creation, yet still expressed differently across covenants and fulfilled in the teachings of Christ and the apostles.

So I do not see “creation origin” and “eternal covenant obligation in the same form” as automatically identical categories.

That is why I keep coming back to the New Testament apostolic instructions to the churches. When the early church explicitly addressed what was required of Gentile believers (Acts 15), they were very specific in what they bound and what they did not bind. That remains important for me because it shows how the apostles themselves applied continuity and fulfillment in practice.

In Colossians 2 and Romans 14, I also see the New Testament allowing freedom regarding days while still calling believers to holiness, worship, and obedience to God.

So my position is still this:

I agree the Sabbath is meaningful in creation and in God’s revelation, but I do not see a clear apostolic command that re-binds seventh-day observance upon Gentile believers as a covenant requirement under Christ.

That is the point I have not yet seen directly established from the New Testament instructions given to the churches.

Okay, I would not want to hang my hat on hard to understand Paul 2Peter3:16 over the clear words of God, but we have free will. Paul was faithful to God and kept every Sabbath, not one verse in the entire Bible that says they kept Sunday holy, that is a tradition of man and Jesus spoke of keeping traditions of men over the commandments of God. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 The Sabbath is a commandment of God- God placed it in the same unit as only worship Him, not vain His name and not bow to idols. The Sabbath is the commandment that tells us which God that is. Exo20:11 the only God we are to worship Rev14:7 I guess we shall see if Gentiles do not have to keep God's commandments- I think God was clear who they are for.



“but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” — Exodus 20:6 (NKJV)
“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus” — Revelation 14:12 (ESV)

 

[Angelina]

Okay, I would not want to hang my hat on hard to understand Paul 2Peter3:16 over the clear words of God, but we have free will. Paul was faithful to God and kept every Sabbath, not one verse in the entire Bible that says they kept Sunday holy, that is a tradition of man and Jesus spoke of keeping traditions of men over the commandments of God. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 The Sabbath is a commandment of God- God placed it in the same unit as only worship Him, not vain His name and not bow to idols. The Sabbath is the commandment that tells us which God that is. Exo20:11 the only God we are to worship Rev14:7 I guess we shall see if Gentiles do not have to keep God's commandments- I think God was clear who they are for.



“but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” — Exodus 20:6 (NKJV)
“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus” — Revelation 14:12 (ESV)

@LawofLove,
I hear the concern you are raising, and I want to be careful not to misrepresent your position.

I am not dismissing Scripture, Paul, or the importance of God’s commandments. I also agree that Jesus warned against elevating human tradition above God’s Word.

Where I think we are still circling the same core issue is this:
You are reading the Old Testament command as a continuing covenant obligation unless explicitly removed, while I am trying to read the New Testament instructions as defining what is explicitly required of Gentile believers under Christ.

On Paul, I agree he can be difficult to interpret in places, which is why I am not building my view on Paul alone. I am looking at the whole New Testament pattern, including how the apostles applied requirements to Gentile believers in practice.

In Acts 15, Revelation, and the commandments of God, I agree that believers are called to obedience, holiness, and faithfulness to God.

The question is not whether God’s commandments matter, but how the New Covenant defines covenant obligation for those in Christ.

That is still the point I have not seen directly established: a clear apostolic command requiring Gentile believers in Christ to observe the seventh-day Sabbath as a covenant requirement in the same binding way as Israel under Sinai.

That is the specific issue. I am trying to stay focused on these rather than moving into broader questions of tradition, identity, or general obedience to God’s commandments.

 

[LawofLove]

I understand the way you are framing the issue, and I agree this is really where the disagreement becomes clear.

I also agree that the New Testament does not always restate Old Testament commands in a “re-listing” format. The apostles often assume continuity while also reinterpreting practices through Christ. So I don’t think the absence of a repeated command in identical wording is automatically the deciding factor on its own.

That is why I keep returning not only to isolated commands but also to how the apostles actually applied covenant obligation to Gentile believers in practice.

In Acts 15, the question was not simply theological but covenantal: what is required of Gentiles who are now in Christ? The council’s response is significant because it is explicit in what it does and does not place upon them. My point is not that Acts 15 mentions every aspect of Christian life, but that it shows how the apostles handled the question of binding covenant requirements for Gentiles.

In Romans 14 and Colossians 2, I agree there is freedom of conscience regarding days in the life of the church, while still calling believers to holiness and devotion to God. Where we differ is whether Sabbath observance is included in that category of liberty or in the category of continuing covenant obligation.

So I would summarize my position more precisely:

I am not arguing that God’s law is irrelevant or that Scripture must explicitly “re-list” every command for it to matter.

I am saying I do not yet see, from the apostolic instruction to Gentile believers in Christ, a clear and direct binding of seventh-day Sabbath observance as a covenant requirement under the new covenant.

That is still the point I am trying to understand from the New Testament itself.

Can you point out in Romans 14 anywhere in that chapter says the Sabbath? Where in the bible - what man esteems is greater than what God does? Why do you think the word of God is ever a doubtful disputation?

Now lets look at Col 2. Paul is quoting the handwritten ordinances that were contrary and against man - can you show me from the Bible what these are and who wrote them?

Paul made an important declaration that if we all followed we would not have this confusion- He said everything has to be according to Christ. So pray tell where Christ told anyone we do not need to keep one of His commandments? Christ plainly taught the opposite Mat5:19 Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

 

[Angelina]

Can you point out in Romans 14 anywhere in that chapter says the Sabbath? Where in the bible - what man esteems is greater than what God does? Why do you think the word of God is ever a doubtful disputation?

Now lets look at Col 2. Paul is quoting the handwritten ordinances that were contrary and against man - can you show me from the Bible what these are and who wrote them?

Paul made an important declaration that if we all followed we would not have this confusion- He said everything has to be according to Christ. So pray tell where Christ told anyone we do not need to keep one of His commandments? Christ plainly taught the opposite Mat5:19 Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

I do not believe Romans 14 is calling God’s Word a “doubtful disputation,” nor am I saying God’s commandments are based on human opinion. My point is that Paul appears to allow liberty regarding the observance of days among believers without treating disagreement over those days as covenant-breaking sin.

I agree the word “Sabbath” is not explicitly used in Romans 14. The question is whether Paul’s discussion of esteeming one day above another can reasonably include questions of sacred-day observance within the church. I understand you do not believe it does. I simply think the passage at minimum shows a category of liberty regarding days that is difficult to reconcile with the idea that all believers are under an identical Sabbath obligation.

In Colossians 2, I understand your interpretation that Paul is referring specifically to ceremonial ordinances connected to sacrifices and festivals. But Paul still says believers are not to be judged regarding festival, new moon, or Sabbath observance and that these were shadows pointing to Christ. That language still suggests to me that calendar observances are not being treated as the defining covenant marker of the new covenant community.

And on your final point, I fully agree that everything must be according to Christ. That is exactly why I keep asking where Christ or the apostles explicitly place Gentile believers under a binding seventh-day covenant obligation.

I do not see Jesus teaching lawlessness. I do not see the apostles rejecting holiness or obedience. What I do see is the New Testament consistently centering covenant identity in Christ Himself, the indwelling Spirit, faith working through love, and the unity of Jew and Gentile in Him.

So my question remains the same:
Where do the apostles explicitly instruct Gentile believers in Christ that seventh-day Sabbath observance is a binding covenant requirement for all believers under the new covenant?

 

[LawofLove]

@LawofLove,
I hear the concern you are raising, and I want to be careful not to misrepresent your position.

I am not dismissing Scripture, Paul, or the importance of God’s commandments. I also agree that Jesus warned against elevating human tradition above God’s Word.

Jesus related the commandments of God as the Word of God quoting from the Ten Commandments. So its the traditions of men over the commandments of God, Jesus quoting directly from the Ten. Jesus condemned this plainly.

This is Jesus directly telling us what is false worship. Keeping man-made doctrines over the commandments of God. God commanded honor your father and mother in the same commandments that God commanded to keep the Sabbath day holy and not have any other gods before Him.

“He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’
But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”
he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said
“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”” — Matthew 15:3–9 (ESV)

The question is not whether God’s commandments matter, but how the New Covenant defines covenant obligation for those in Christ.

I'm sorry I do not understand this logic. Its basically elevating the apotles, the creation over God, the Creator. The apotles were servants of God, not His corrector. Jesus commissioned them to spread the gospel not change God's times and laws. Dan7:25


The New Covenant is God's laws written in the heart and mind of His New Covenant believer. Who defines what God laws are- men? God plainly said it included the Sabbath and invited it for everyone Isa56:6 When God can't speak for Himself and man has to correct God - this is something I would be very careful of, personally.

Jesus commanded the apotles to observe everything He command- did that include the 4th commandment. Of course so. They kept faithfully every Sabbath with both Jews and Gentiles, just as Jesus indicated Isa56:6-7

“So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” — Acts 13:42 (NKJV)

“On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” — Acts 13:44 (NKJV)

“And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there” — Acts 16:13 (NKJV)

“Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” — Acts 17:2 (NKJV)

“And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks” — Acts 18:4 (NKJV)

The apotles were never in rebellion to Christ or His commandments. They followed in the example of Jesus who kept every Sabbath

“So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” — Luke 4:16 (NKJV)

The Sabbath continues on in God's New Heaven and Earth- the question is - if we don't want to keep the Sabbath now worshipping our LORD on the day He asked- will we suddenly want to in heaven? Will the God of love force people to come before Him to worship on the Sabbath for all eternity if we are so opposded to it now? I do not believe so, I believe His judgement is one of love

““For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD, “So shall your descendants and your name remainmAnd it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD” — Isaiah 66:22–23 (NKJV)

 

[Angelina]

Jesus related the commandments of God as the Word of God quoting from the Ten Commandments. So its the traditions of men over the commandments of God, Jesus quoting directly from the Ten. Jesus condemned this plainly.

This is Jesus directly telling us what is false worship. Keeping man-made doctrines over the commandments of God. God commanded honor your father and mother in the same commandments that God commanded to keep the Sabbath day holy and not have any other gods before Him.

“He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’
But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”
he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said
“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”” — Matthew 15:3–9 (ESV)

I'm sorry I do not understand this logic. Its basically elevating the apotles, the creation over God, the Creator. The apotles were servants of God, not His corrector. Jesus commissioned them to spread the gospel not change God's times and laws. Dan7:25


The New Covenant is God's laws written in the heart and mind of His New Covenant believer. Who defines what God laws are- men? God plainly said it included the Sabbath and invited it for everyone Isa56:6 When God can't speak for Himself and man has to correct God - this is something I would be very careful of, personally.

Jesus commanded the apotles to observe everything He command- did that include the 4th commandment. Of course so. They kept faithfully every Sabbath with both Jews and Gentiles, just as Jesus indicated Isa56:6-7

“So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” — Acts 13:42 (NKJV)

“On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” — Acts 13:44 (NKJV)

“And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there” — Acts 16:13 (NKJV)

“Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” — Acts 17:2 (NKJV)

“And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks” — Acts 18:4 (NKJV)

The apotles were never in rebellion to Christ or His commandments. They followed in the example of Jesus who kept every Sabbath

“So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” — Luke 4:16 (NKJV)

The Sabbath continues on in God's New Heaven and Earth- the question is - if we don't want to keep the Sabbath now worshipping our LORD on the day He asked- will we suddenly want to in heaven? Will the God of love force people to come before Him to worship on the Sabbath for all eternity if we are so opposded to it now? I do not believe so, I believe His judgement is one of love

““For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD, “So shall your descendants and your name remainmAnd it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD” — Isaiah 66:22–23 (NKJV)

@LawofLove,
Thank you again for taking the time to explain your position carefully. I do understand the seriousness with which you approach this subject, and I agree that we should never place human tradition above God’s truth.

I also agree that Jesus upheld the commandments of God and condemned hypocrisy and false worship. My disagreement is not with obedience to God, but with how covenant obligation is understood and applied under the new covenant.

I do not believe the apostles “corrected” God or placed themselves above Him. Rather, I believe Christ Himself authorized and commissioned the apostles to teach and apply the meaning of His fulfillment under the new covenant through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

That is why I continue to look carefully at how the apostles instructed Gentile believers in practice.

I agree the apostles attended synagogue on the Sabbath. But I do not believe examples of synagogue attendance automatically function as universal covenant commands for all believers. The apostles also participated in other Jewish customs and rhythms during a transitional period where the gospel was moving outward from Israel into the nations.

The key question for me is still not “Did Jesus or the apostles honor the Sabbath in a Jewish context?”

The question is:
“Did the apostles explicitly bind seventh-day Sabbath observance upon Gentile believers as a covenant requirement under Christ?”

That is the point I still do not see directly stated.

I also agree Isaiah 66 is a beautiful picture of worship before God in the new creation. But prophetic imagery and future worship language do not automatically answer the covenant question regarding how the New Testament instructs Gentile believers in the present church age.

So I think our core difference remains this:

You see continuity of the Sabbath command as assumed unless explicitly revoked.

I see the New Testament placing covenant authority in Christ and apostolic teaching, where some Old Covenant signs are fulfilled and transformed under the new covenant and where I do not see the apostles explicitly requiring seventh-day observance of Gentile believers as a binding covenant obligation.

That is why I continue to distinguish between honoring the significance of the Sabbath and asserting that all Gentile believers are covenantally required to observe the seventh day under the new covenant.

 

[LawofLove]

I do not believe Romans 14 is calling God’s Word a “doubtful disputation,” nor am I saying God’s commandments are based on human opinion. My point is that Paul appears to allow liberty regarding the observance of days among believers without treating disagreement over those days as covenant-breaking sin.

I agree the word “Sabbath” is not explicitly used in Romans 14. The question is whether Paul’s discussion of esteeming one day above another can reasonably include questions of sacred-day observance within the church. I understand you do not believe it does. I simply think the passage at minimum shows a category of liberty regarding days that is difficult to reconcile with the idea that all believers are under an identical Sabbath obligation.

In Colossians 2, I understand your interpretation that Paul is referring specifically to ceremonial ordinances connected to sacrifices and festivals. But Paul still says believers are not to be judged regarding festival, new moon, or Sabbath observance and that these were shadows pointing to Christ. That language still suggests to me that calendar observances are not being treated as the defining covenant marker of the new covenant community.

And on your final point, I fully agree that everything must be according to Christ. That is exactly why I keep asking where Christ or the apostles explicitly place Gentile believers under a binding seventh-day covenant obligation.

I do not see Jesus teaching lawlessness. I do not see the apostles rejecting holiness or obedience. What I do see is the New Testament consistently centering covenant identity in Christ Himself, the indwelling Spirit, faith working through love, and the unity of Jew and Gentile in Him.

So my question remains the same:
Where do the apostles explicitly instruct Gentile believers in Christ that seventh-day Sabbath observance is a binding covenant requirement for all believers under the new covenant?

You didn't really answer the questions. Paul gave the context of what he was speaking of. The way this interpretation is that God made the Sabbath against man from Creation, basically saying God is against man from Creation. When Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not against man. So this understanding has Paul directly contradicting Christ when he said in this very passage everything has to be according to Him. Col 2:8

@LawofLove,
Thank you again for taking the time to explain your position carefully. I do understand the seriousness with which you approach this subject, and I agree that we should never place human tradition above God’s truth.

I also agree that Jesus upheld the commandments of God and condemned hypocrisy and false worship. My disagreement is not with obedience to God, but with how covenant obligation is understood and applied under the new covenant.

I do not believe the apostles “corrected” God or placed themselves above Him. Rather, I believe Christ Himself authorized and commissioned the apostles to teach and apply the meaning of His fulfillment under the new covenant through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

That is why I continue to look carefully at how the apostles instructed Gentile believers in practice.

I agree the apostles attended synagogue on the Sabbath. But I do not believe examples of synagogue attendance automatically function as universal covenant commands for all believers. The apostles also participated in other Jewish customs and rhythms during a transitional period where the gospel was moving outward from Israel into the nations.

The key question for me is still not “Did Jesus or the apostles honor the Sabbath in a Jewish context?”

The question is:
“Did the apostles explicitly bind seventh-day Sabbath observance upon Gentile believers as a covenant requirement under Christ?”

That is the point I still do not see directly stated.

I also agree Isaiah 66 is a beautiful picture of worship before God in the new creation. But prophetic imagery and future worship language do not automatically answer the covenant question regarding how the New Testament instructs Gentile believers in the present church age.

So I think our core difference remains this:

You see continuity of the Sabbath command as assumed unless explicitly revoked.

I see the New Testament placing covenant authority in Christ and apostolic teaching, where some Old Covenant signs are fulfilled and transformed under the new covenant and where I do not see the apostles explicitly requiring seventh-day observance of Gentile believers as a binding covenant obligation.

That is why I continue to distinguish between honoring the significance of the Sabbath and asserting that all Gentile believers are covenantally required to observe the seventh day under the new covenant.

I would be more concerned where does it say in the New Covenant that the Law of God did not include the Sabbath? Its all over the NC. God already in His own words said the Sabbath is for everyone who loves and serves made for mankind. If His words are not good enough, there is not much I can do. God told us who is commandments are for those who love Him Exo20:6 and the continue on until the end of time. Rev14:12 if you think it didn't include the one commandment God said Remember that's the one we can forget- I guess God will sort it out soon enough.

Do you think Gentiles can break the other 9 commandments freely? Why do you isolate this one commandment when God did not?

 

[Angelina]

You didn't really answer the questions. Paul gave the context of what he was speaking of. The way this interpretation is that God made the Sabbath against man from Creation, basically saying God is against man from Creation.



I would be more concerned where does it say in the New Covenant that the Law of God did not include the Sabbath? Its all over the NC. God already in His own words said the Sabbath is for everyone who loves and serves made for mankind. If His words are not good enough, there is not much I can do. God told us who is commandments are for those who love Him Exo20:6 and the continue on until the end of time. Rev14:12 if you think it didn't include the one commandment God said Remember that's the one we can forget- I guess God will sort it out soon enough.

Do you think Gentiles can break the other 9 commandments freely? Why do you isolate this one commandment when God did not?

@LawofLove
I understand why you see the issue this way, and I appreciate the consistency with which you are approaching it.

But I think we are still operating from two different covenant assumptions.

You seem to begin with the assumption that every Old Covenant command remains binding in the same form unless the New Testament explicitly removes it.

I begin with the understanding that the New Testament interprets covenant obligation through Christ and apostolic teaching, where some things continue directly, some are deepened, and some are fulfilled differently under the new covenant.

That is why I do not think the question is:
“Where does the New Testament explicitly remove the Sabbath?”

Rather, the question is:
“How do Christ and the apostles define covenant obligation for believers under the new covenant?”

I agree completely that God’s commandments matter and that believers are called to obedience, holiness, and love for God. I am not arguing for lawlessness, nor am I saying the Sabbath is meaningless.

What I am saying is that I do not see the apostles explicitly binding seventh-day Sabbath observance upon Gentile believers as a covenant requirement in the same way you are describing.

And I think that distinction matters because the New Testament repeatedly centers covenant identity in Christ Himself through faith, the Spirit, love, holiness, and union with Him while not explicitly making seventh-day observance the defining covenant marker for Gentile believers.

So I do not see myself as rejecting God’s commandments. I see myself trying to understand how the new covenant itself applies and fulfills them through Christ and apostolic teaching.

 

[amigo de christo]

Walter called @LawofLove a brother several times while she is a sister, that was all

Oh i knew that my friend . Just figured i would remind us .

 

[amigo de christo]

Like I said before, if it is your belief the Saturday Sabbath should be obeyed for the glory of God then that is okay, what I don't like is that the doctrine has become a salvation issue. We are not saved by doctrines but by faith in Christ. I am allergic to churches who proclaim that only they are the right church. Only Jesus knows His sheep.

By the way, which of Ellen White teachings do you follow?

• Forbade use of cheese, butter, and eggs
• Forbade eating of meat
• Recommended deserts not be eaten
• Salad dressing should be made without vinegar
• Coffee and Tea are forbidden
• Mustard, pepper, pickles, and cinnamon are forbidden
• Card-playing, chess, and checkers are banned
• Football, Tennis, Cricket, Baseball, and bike-riding are banned
• Picnics and social parties are not a good idea
• Secular music concerts are not the best use of time
• Fictional writings (or TV shows?) should be avoided
• The theater is off limits
• Billiard halls and bowling alleys are not places for Christians
• The Circus is off limits
• Dance halls are the enemy's territory
• Jewelry is forbidden
• College students cannot date
• Food cannot be prepared upon the Sabbath
• Dishes cannot be washed on the Sabbath
• You should not live in a city

Kinda like when they go around trying to say we are all catholic .
Or perhaps far worse when they make excuse for praying to saints , to mary , to angels . Which be blasphemy
to say the least . The we are all catholic , is but an agenda to convince us to come home to mama .
A commandment i refuse to heed my friend . now to the trenches one and all .

 

[LawofLove]

@LawofLove
I understand why you see the issue this way, and I appreciate the consistency with which you are approaching it.

But I think we are still operating from two different covenant assumptions.

You seem to begin with the assumption that every Old Covenant command remains binding in the same form unless the New Testament explicitly removes it.

I begin with the understanding that the New Testament interprets covenant obligation through Christ and apostolic teaching, where some things continue directly, some are deepened, and some are fulfilled differently under the new covenant.

That is why I do not think the question is:
“Where does the New Testament explicitly remove the Sabbath?”

Rather, the question is:
“How do Christ and the apostles define covenant obligation for believers under the new covenant?”

I agree completely that God’s commandments matter and that believers are called to obedience, holiness, and love for God. I am not arguing for lawlessness, nor am I saying the Sabbath is meaningless.

What I am saying is that I do not see the apostles explicitly binding seventh-day Sabbath observance upon Gentile believers as a covenant requirement in the same way you are describing.

And I think that distinction matters because the New Testament repeatedly centers covenant identity in Christ Himself through faith, the Spirit, love, holiness, and union with Him while not explicitly making seventh-day observance the defining covenant marker for Gentile believers.

So I do not see myself as rejecting God’s commandments. I see myself trying to understand how the new covenant itself applies and fulfills them through Christ and apostolic teaching.

The apotles did not give the covenant- God did. The apotles were servants of God, they followed God - we need to look to God, just as the apotles did.


No one is talking about every law. I am referring to the covenant- the Ten Commandments. God does not have two standards of righteousness one for Jew and one for Gentiles this is a deception. He always wanted His people to do what is righteous- He literally wrote it out so we really won't have any excuses.

“So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments” — Exodus 34:28 (NKJV)

Deut 4:13 “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone” — Deuteronomy 4:13 (NKJV)

The New Covenant is the same laws- the promises changed, the location of God's laws changed not the Words according to God.

“My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” — Psalms 89:34 (NKJV)

God made a New Covenant- with the same people but God included Gentiles - not everyone though- He invited everyone but those respond are those who love His name, join themselves to the LORD, who serve the LORD and keep His Sabbath- will we be one of these or reject the terms like so many before us Eze20:15-16 we are told in the NT not to follow Heb4:11

““Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles) Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—” — Isaiah 56:6 (NKJV)

And if we are in this Covenant with God He remembers our sins no more. Sadly many are not because they do not subject themselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people” — Hebrews 8:10 (NKJV)

They went from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3, not altering the words, Gentiles included to keep the Sabbath and hold fast His covenant. Why its still a sin to break the law of God in the NT 1John3:4 breaking one commandment we break them all James2:10-12. Why the apotles taught keeping the commandment of God is what matters 1Cor7:19 because its mans all, to fear God and keep His commandments what man is judged by Ecc12:13-14 Mat5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19 regardless is we accept or reject the law of God. Its God's standard of righteousness Psa119:172 that included the Sabbath Isa56:1-2 and His righteousness is everlasting the foundation of His throne Psa89:14 where His ark of the covenant is that holds the Ten Commandments Rev11:19 because His word is settled in heaven Psa119:89

 

[Angelina]

The apotles did not give the covenant- God did. The apotles were servants of God, they followed God - we need to look to God, just as the apotles did.


No one is talking about every law. I am referring to the covenant- the Ten Commandments. God does not have two standards of righteousness one for Jew and one for Gentiles this is a deception. He always wanted His people to do what is righteous- He literally wrote it out so we really won't have any excuses.





The New Covenant is the same laws- the promises changed, the location of God's laws changed not the Words according to God.



God made a New Covenant- with the same people but God included Gentiles - not everyone though- He invited everyone but those respond are those who love His name, join themselves to the LORD, who serve the LORD and keep His Sabbath- will we be one of these or reject the terms like so many before us Eze20:15-16 we are told in the NT not to follow Heb4:11



And if we are in this Covenant with God He remembers our sins no more. Sadly many are not because they do not subject themselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8



They went from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3, not altering the words, Gentiles included to keep the Sabbath and hold fast His covenant. Why its still a sin to break the law of God in the NT 1John3:4 breaking one commandment we break them all James2:10-12. Why the apotles taught keeping the commandment of God is what matters 1Cor7:19 because its mans all, to fear God and keep His commandments what man is judged by Ecc12:13-14 Mat5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19 regardless is we accept or reject the law of God. Its God's standard of righteousness Psa119:172 that included the Sabbath Isa56:1-2 and His righteousness is everlasting the foundation of His throne Psa89:14 where His ark of the covenant is that holds the Ten Commandments Rev11:19 because His word is settled in heaven Psa119:89

Thank you for explaining your position in detail. I think by this point the deeper difference between us has become clearer.

You understand the Ten Commandments themselves to be the continuing covenant in unchanged covenantal form, now written on the heart under the new covenant.

I understand the new covenant as being centered in Christ Himself, where God’s moral character remains holy and unchanging, but where covenant administration and covenant signs are interpreted through Christ and apostolic teaching.

So I do not believe I am rejecting God’s righteousness nor arguing that obedience no longer matters. I fully agree believers are called to holiness, love of God, repentance, and faithful obedience.

Where I still differ is that I do not see the New Testament explicitly presenting seventh-day Sabbath observance as the covenant boundary marker for Gentile believers in Christ in the way you are describing.

I understand that you see continuity as assumed from the Old Testament forward unless explicitly changed.

I see the apostles repeatedly defining covenant identity primarily through union with Christ, faith, the indwelling Spirit, and the fruit of obedience flowing from that relationship rather than through a specific calendar observance being imposed upon all nations.

So while I respect the seriousness with which you hold your convictions, I do not believe disagreement on this point automatically means someone is resisting God or rejecting His righteousness.

I think we are ultimately approaching Scripture through two different covenant frameworks, which is why we continue arriving at different conclusions from many of the same passages.

 

[LawofLove]

Thank you for explaining your position in detail. I think by this point the deeper difference between us has become clearer.

You understand the Ten Commandments themselves to be the continuing covenant in unchanged covenantal form, now written on the heart under the new covenant.

I understand the new covenant as being centered in Christ Himself, where God’s moral character remains holy and unchanging, but where covenant administration and covenant signs are interpreted through Christ and apostolic teaching.

So I do not believe I am rejecting God’s righteousness nor arguing that obedience no longer matters. I fully agree believers are called to holiness, love of God, repentance, and faithful obedience.

Where I still differ is that I do not see the New Testament explicitly presenting seventh-day Sabbath observance as the covenant boundary marker for Gentile believers in Christ in the way you are describing.

I understand that you see continuity as assumed from the Old Testament forward unless explicitly changed.

I see the apostles repeatedly defining covenant identity primarily through union with Christ, faith, the indwelling Spirit, and the fruit of obedience flowing from that relationship rather than through a specific calendar observance being imposed upon all nations.

So while I respect the seriousness with which you hold your convictions, I do not believe disagreement on this point automatically means someone is resisting God or rejecting His righteousness.

I think we are ultimately approaching Scripture through two different covenant frameworks, which is why we continue arriving at different conclusions from many of the same passages.

The Sabbath is part of God's covenant so its not keep the Sabbath or be Christ centered- keeping the Sabbath is Christ centered- joining ourselves to the LORD, serving the LORD, loving the name of the LORD. Why do you think God does not want to spend sacred time with us and how doing what God asks not Christ centered?

Is lawlessness the way we define it or does God. Lawlessness is breaking the law of God. Do we define God's laws or does God.

The Sabbath is the law of God. It came with the same penalty as not murdering our neighbor and committing adultery.

It literally left an entire generation out of the land full of milk and honey, their inheritance and God related breaking the Sabbath with another commandment- idol worship. Which shows even in the NT how breaking one commandment we break them all James 2:10-12.

“So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols” — Ezekiel 20:15–16 (NKJV)

Does God love us more than they? I do not believe so Rom2:11 God does not have two different standards of judgement.

Why we are told in the NT not to follow in the same example of disobedience Heb4:11 we still need to enter our promised land.

“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” — Revelation 22:14 (NKJV)